Russian Training?

[lostsoul]

Has anyone heard about a special type of piano training only Russians do?

I got asked by a student about this one.

[Bob]

I think there's stuff about the Russian school on here.  Search for schools of piano playing.

Emphasis on technique, schools that follow a certain pattern of learning, playing serious music, all around "heaviness"    that's my naive impression.

[pianonut]

yes.  i agree with bob.  look at russian gymnastics.  i mean those kids work really hard.  it's all about making it.  success.  very disciplined.  probably very smart.  maybe solemn or serious.  look at the eyes.  they tell you a story.  students names all start with 'k' like katrinka.  ok. theres 'pasha'  (love that name) from siberia. (pianonut adopts them all)

[lostsoul]

His music teacher said that he and all the other students didn't play with tone (He chose a piece he had not played for 6 months).
The next comment was, playing the piano had more to do with the shoulders sending energy to your fingers which in turns makes the hammer bounce off the strings faster.
This method of practising was only obtained through russian methods.

My first impression was, this is alot like the chinese using "qi".



 

[pianonut]

don't know much about 'qi,' but sounds like you know how to get tone.  and, i agree, you can't get it by using your shoulders.  they can be powerful players, but am realizing it's not all power anymore.  lightness can be great power.  look at karate experts.  they're all skinny.  yet, they flip people like matchsticks.

'qi' - i will look into it.

[RealPianist]

Hi! I'm new in this forum.
Do russian teacher usually very strict and like to angry to the student just to make the student able to be an artist?

[pianonut]

the degree of anger usually matches the degree of happiness when things go well, no matter the nationality of the teacher, imo.  if they're an artist, let them be.  putting out excellence takes more work than just patting a kid on the back and giving them kudo's for nothing. be thankful for the smile once a year.  (just kidding)  when i am a real teacher, i will be mean too.  in a good way.  i will never let them know they are getting better.  always make them feel like their getting worse.  then, when they accidentally play a whole program from memory and feel no pressure (already had it during lessons) they will say, wow, this is fun.  nobody is complaining.  must be ok.

[RealPianist]

why do you should let them not feel getting better? I think it will make them happy n have more practice, what do you think, n what other think?

[Dazzer]

don't know much about 'qi,' but sounds like you know how to get tone.  and, i agree, you can't get it by using your shoulders.  they can be powerful players, but am realizing it's not all power anymore.  lightness can be great power.  look at karate experts.  they're all skinny.  yet, they flip people like matchsticks.

'qi' - i will look into it.

"qi" refers to Inner Energy. Its different from physical energy, where say, you use your muscles. But it complments and adds to it. The idea is that, say you wanted to punch a bag. If you were to use only your muscle that would be that. You use the energy of your muscle. But what of the other muscles of your body? They're wasting energy. So by directing the rest of the energy, and channelling it internally to a focal point, then blasting it out at that point, you can get a lot more energy. At least, that's my gist of it. QiGong, a form of martial arts involving Qi, takes years to learn, and decades to master. My dad practices it once in awhile... tries to impress me by punching holes in cardboard boxes using a finger. I don't try it ... for obvious reasons heh.

[pianonut]

oh, that's 'qi.'  i really like the intense meditation that some pianists really do have.  and a form of qi is probably not bad to have for long exhaustive pieces.  unfortunately, i use it on scarlatti (which my teacher did not like).  so then, i speak softly to myself (slow down, don't put so much effort into what you do) and try not to get so 'solar plexusish.'  for me, when i bicycle a lot, i get a stronger sense of sitting correctly at the piano, which helps me play better.   i feel the strength coming from around my belly button (seriously) - you know, inside - and then i can go for long stretches of time and not get tired.  that's my 'qi.'  BUT, when i don't exercise - i haven't enough 'qi' and don't concentrate as well either.

ps.  realpianist, imo you pay for someone to teach you as much stuff as you can learn in as little time as possible.  so, if you are just going for lessons to feel good, you're not going to get as much out.  so - you go in, accepting whatever fate is to befall you.  if you go rock climbing, would you expect never to slip and never to fall back.  piano is just like that for me.  i get lots of practice in for several months, then something happens, and it's not as much, then the teacher is frustrated (allt eh work and lessons) so then i practice a lot again.  now, i have to find a balance - a way to practice all the time even if it is a little bit here and there.  that means i have to quit piano forum in august.  it's very addicting!!! (maybe not quit, but just quit checking threads all the time).

[bernhard]

I think there's stuff about the Russian school on here.  Search for schools of piano playing.

Emphasis on technique, schools that follow a certain pattern of learning, playing serious music, all around "heaviness"    that's my naive impression.

Here are some threads dealing with the Russians :

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1775.msg13699.html#msg13699
(Russian Piano School –  Rachmaninoff’s opinion).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3366.msg29913.html#msg29913
(Russians x Asians in competition –  “real”martial artists. Different technical and teaching approachs depending on race)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1775.msg40053.html#msg40053
(Russian piano method)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4340.msg40869.html#msg40869
(Intonatsia – Russian method)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2602.msg22430.html#msg22430
(Russian teaching method – reading x memorising).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3466.msg30666.html#msg30666
(Russian methods - what is a real teacher - definitions of communicator)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4002.msg46084.html#msg46084
(m1469 describes the philosophy of a Russian teacher – the pragmatic method and doing wrist locks on students)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

oh, that's 'qi.'  i really like the intense meditation that some pianists really do have.  and a form of qi is probably not bad to have for long exhaustive pieces.  unfortunately, i use it on scarlatti (which my teacher did not like).  so then, i speak softly to myself (slow down, don't put so much effort into what you do) and try not to get so 'solar plexusish.'  for me, when i bicycle a lot, i get a stronger sense of sitting correctly at the piano, which helps me play better.   i feel the strength coming from around my belly button (seriously) - you know, inside - and then i can go for long stretches of time and not get tired.  that's my 'qi.'  BUT, when i don't exercise - i haven't enough 'qi' and don't concentrate as well either.

ps.  realpianist, imo you pay for someone to teach you as much stuff as you can learn in as little time as possible.  so, if you are just going for lessons to feel good, you're not going to get as much out.  so - you go in, accepting whatever fate is to befall you.  if you go rock climbing, would you expect never to slip and never to fall back.  piano is just like that for me.  i get lots of practice in for several months, then something happens, and it's not as much, then the teacher is frustrated (allt eh work and lessons) so then i practice a lot again.  now, i have to find a balance - a way to practice all the time even if it is a little bit here and there.  that means i have to quit piano forum in august.  it's very addicting!!! (maybe not quit, but just quit checking threads all the time).

Qi (or Chi) is the original concept that George Lucas used in the “Star War” hexalogy and called “the Force”.

In fact, at one point Obi Wan Kenobi and Luke Skywalker were in a Chinese restaurant and Luke could not quite manage the chopsticks, food kept falling ont his lap. Obi Wan observed for a while and eventually lost patience and said:

-   Use the Forks, Luke! Use the Forks!

 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

PS. Seriously, if you are interested, then read:

Bruce Kumar Frantzis “The power of the internal martial arts”.

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1556432534/cloudwatetaichi/002-4678042-1926422
 
You can read a most interesting excerpt here:

https://www.energyarts.com/lores/library/masters/wang.html

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[pianonut]

i like that!  bernhard, how do you know everything?  i mean.  is there something you don't know?  (like how to dance or something - shoots bernhard in the foot).

[bernhard]

I don't know anything.

I just make up what I can't google

[pianonut]

well, i  like how you put it all together, and you type it so fast that it must be mostly from you  head.  i'm just slightly jealous because i can't remember things that i just read this morning.  i have to repeat things over and over.  when i get that 'teaching voice' going - it kind of falters when someone asks "and, what does this flat sign over the trill mean?" then, i excuse myself and take a peek at the harvard dictionary hidden behind the pic in the bathroom.  it doesn't work so well in class.  i have learned to be much more quiet.

ps actually i don't have any advanced students yet, but am imagining what i am going to do?

[i_m_robot]

the russian method:

play with power and dignity

push through all obsticles no matter how difficult or painful

trust your body, it will adapt

many americans will disagree

afterall they are american

jk

thats more like the

*deep devilish tone*

Psycho Sadist Method!!!!!!!!!!

but if it truly worked self wouldnt over look it

unfortunately it leads to much badness

does a russian school even exist really?

do the northern russians use the same methods of the southern russians?

the east the same as the west?

was it even funded in russia?

[vladimirdounin]

Russian school has like a tree a lot of different branches. I can compare them because I  graduated from Kazan Music College, Moscow conservatory and St. Petersburg Conservatory (post graduate study). You can use my question below (improved version) as example of one of branches of Russian school. If you will have a chance to be in Toronto (ON, Canada) come to watch my lesson or take one (free). Vladimir Dounin
The best way to play ...
My performing and teaching work is based on accurate indication of Note Strength. Without playing, just by looking at any score for the first time, any of my student or choir member (my other work – chorus master at opera) can say about each note - whether it should be played louder or softer in relation to the previous and the following note, and by how much.

This is an extremely important knowledge because the right or wrong stressing and softening of notes is the only difference between the best and the worst pianist in the world. All of us play the same notes on the same beat, and speed (in spite of mass obsession) eventually does not matter (listen to Horowitz).

We just follow some simple and easy “Dynamics Rules” and it saves a lot of time and energy. In one lesson’s time I can teach anybody to play a piece (which s/he is able to play, of course) as the best professionals play. All the students of any level receive inevitably excellent marks (“for exceptional musicality”) at any exam or competition, as soon as they have learned 25-30 basic rules. Quite often mere following these rules improves technique dramatically. (This happened recently to my student in 2nd Scherzo by Chopin. She amazed adjudicators with “ultra fine finger work” in the C# minor episode, though at the beginning she could not play the 2nd voice at all). A majority of these rules are well known and followed by all good musicians, but the problem is that the rules have never been published altogether in one book, and they are still scattered in many sources. Therefore it is very important and useful to exchange our knowledge with other musicians.   

I am gathering and testing these rules for more than 40 years (the test for a rule is considered “passed” if nobody can show me the music in which this rule is not applicable). Unfortunately, after I moved to America, I can not find here anybody with whom I can discuss my concerns regarding dynamics, phrasing, and articulation, etc. People around me say that they have never heard about any musical rules and laws. Instead, they just “self-express themselves in the way they want and feel” (could you imagine – they do it in the music of Bach or Mozart?). Judging from my experience as an adjudicator, this “self-expression” instead of knowledge of the basics of music is a real problem for teaching nowadays. Sometimes I even hear the proud words: “I think in phrases in music and I teach to think in phrases. I do not care what they are made of”. Would you like to learn English from a teacher who “thinks in phrases” because he does not know the words? If you are serious, will you rely on the phrasebook instead of the dictionary?

Proper stressing /softening in music is as important as the proper stressing in the words of any language. Nobody will understand even very familiar words pronounced with the wrong stresses, e.g., AmerIca , TorontO, SonAtina, etc. Similarly, no one will understand and enjoy the music played with wrong stressing and softening. Music is just one of human languages, and for any language, the same rules apply.

 The Scientific Acoustic Research Laboratory of Moscow Conservatory does not work at this time, and I do not know which Western software can be used to display or print (in Disklavier 124 degrees scale) the Note Strength (volume) of each particular note. This is a very effective and convenient way to discover “artistic secrets” of your favourite pianists, if visual information about timing and strength of each note in their recording is available. (Fortunately, almost everything in the Piano Repertoire is recorded today digitally by “Disklavier” and the best performers, so we have a lot to choose from).

I will be very glad to hear from or about somebody who knows “what musical phrases are made of” and wants to share or exchange with me useful rules or can suggest the best ways to perform. I will appreciate the information regarding software as well.

Today my concern is in the very first bars of “Moonlight sonata” by Beethoven.
Which notes of the melody G# G#G#   G#G#G#   A G#F# B E       should be stressed, i.e. played stronger than regular ones?
(Stressed notes can be marked with “+” or ”++ “or “+++”, the more pluses – the louder).

Which ones should be softened (marks can be “-“, “- - “ , or “---“) ?

Which notes are just regular (not stressed, not softened – no mark needed or mark “0” can be used)? The differences between + and ++ between - and -- , between  0 and +   equal 1 degree. (One degree is THE SMALLEST difference in volume between two notes that we can hear).

For example, G#, G#--, G#++ ,      G#+, G#, G+++    A,  G#++,  F#++, B, E+++ ( I hope that nobody plays like this, of course).

I will appreciate any opinion expressed.  Vladimir.