\"\"
Piano Forum logo

Congrats! We have made history ("Fur Elise", "Moonlight" by Beethoven) (Read 6175 times)

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
I'm sorry but MIDI does what you described just perfectly.  Why dont you go and reinvent the combusion engine on some car forum.

ANSWER

Can MIDI print back an accurate report about entire my mistakes that I had done in my performance on a real "Steinway", including my dinamics?

Can MIDI summarize the performing experience of the best pianists of the world and find some logical principles in their dynamics and rhytm?

Why do you call this engine "Combusion engine". I assembled and dissasembled a lot of engines when auto-building was my hobby. However, they were called  "Internal Combustion Engines", did you mean this? 

V.D.

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
 what is the purpose of all this? what use is it to you coming here and throwing all these stuff at us?

ANSWER

Plenty of use!   

I can see the real reaction of alive, not imaginative people on this ideas. I can see clearly what they do not understand and what I have to write better, more clear. I can correct my lacks and mistakes that I never saw without my critics. And, this is the most important, I can hear thoughts and ideas of many clever people who I had no chance to meet in my life.

I do not need your or somebody's else recognition or respect etc. I am practical. I see a huge problem in the art that is the whole my life. This art supports me generously for almost 50 years and I must do everything that I can for it as well (like I wash and lubricate my car because my life depends on it).

What is the problem for everyone who is not interested to skip my topic? Read the next one. However, a lot of readers are very constructive and I am excited with this. I feel that one day the accurate notation of dynamics in some way will be done definitely.

Have a nice night! V.D.

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338


.  and SERIOUSLY!  quit with the goddamned yellow!

ANSWER

Tonight I managed eventually to change color, but it  took half an hour to get anything except blue and yellow. I suspect that something is wrong in the program.

You hate "Yellow" and I can not see "Blue" clearly, here is the problem. V.D.

Oh and also; you came here expecting us to listen and consider your ideas but you obviously have no intention on listening and considering ours, just to slam them down because you don't like them. 

ANSWER

I can not dislike your ideas because I did not read them yet. Tell me where can I read them - I will be glad to do so . V.D.

Offline Skeptopotamus

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 832
don't be pedantic.  and orange is just as bad.  why don't you try..... oh say......... white?  Like everyone else?

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338

I spent the whole night thinking of this, and after thorough thought, yes i'm willing to say that PERHAPS this notation technique can be used

ANSWER

Thanks, I very appreciated both of these events! V.D.

 But it must be cautioned that eventually the child will have to step out on his own, and the teacher cannot hold his/her hand anymore.


ANSWER

It is exactly my goal and the Dynamic Rules (I hope to post them one day and discuss with the forum) allow me to sit with my closed mouth 95% of the lesson's time. It is like this because my students in a few weeks absorb and digest the information that I was collecting over 50 years. After a few lessons they know their pieces already better than I know (because I do not play them and think about them each day and night like my students).

 ... and with this notation, notes down note strengths for every single note? What would he be performing? It'd be robotic.


ANSWER

Dazzer, it is already not a fair play. I explained here many times that the Note Strength is a tool of research and correction, it is a tool of communication between musicians (NB, it is a working tool of communication - we all together proved it recently). However it is not a dog-collar, like you portrayed it in your comments. Knowledge makes us FREE, ignorance makes slaves of us.

Not one student had heard from me "play like this, because I like to play in this way". My difference with the traditional teaching is that I always invite my students to make a choice: what do they like more? Isn't this approach anything else but FREEDOM?  

The whole... computer idea seems more gimmicky then anything else.

ANSWER

Dazzer, are you sure which one of your notes is louder or softer? I am doing this way many decades, and I am still doing mistakes sometimes, and sometimes I am wasting a lot of time to analize: what in fact I am doing in this particular spot? Which of my notes do I play louder or softer?

I need computer to help me to understand my own actions, I need computer to understand the secrets of actions of other artists who do something better than I do, my students need computer for the same purposes. Maybe you are perfect and do not need to improve your knowledge but have mercy to others. V.D.  


And vlad seems more desperate to put his name on something than anything else.


ANSWER

If this system will be accepted by musical society in the future, be sure, like I am, that no one in this future will mention me and you in conjuction with this topic. It will be attributed to better names like it always happens in our world. Even America is not called Columbia, what on Earth do you expect from our Note Strength ( accurate individual note indication, note volume index, mark of intensity etc)? V.D.

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
And vlad seems more desperate to put his name on something than anything else.

There are the answers for the rest of your comments. V.D.

The greatest reward lies in making the discovery; recognition can add little or nothing to that.
                                                                                                                            -  Neumann

It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment.                                                     G. Meyer


Music is the pleasure the human mind experiences from counting without being aware that it is counting.
                                                                                                                             A. Einstein


It is impossible to be a mathematician without being a poet in soul.
                                                                                                                   Sophia Kovalevskaya


It's not pure intellectual power that counts, it's commitment.
                                                                                                                                       E. Bell   


The open secret of real success is to throw your whole personality at  the problem.

                                                                                                                               J. King         


 

Offline leahcim

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1376
I'd have said devices to play pianos with precision velocity [and sensors to detect people hitting the keys] are exactly what digital piano manufs [and software synth sample sets] want / have, so at least one of them must have done this already [although I bet some have used pianists, it stands to reason they'll want the velocity as nuance free / accurate as possible across the keyboard and between sample layers - i.e a machine to do it]

Computers can play songs today significantly better than "beeps" and relatively cheaply [there are gigabyte multi-layered samples -  not the same as the very individual "samples" that you get on a CD recording of an artist playing a particular piece on the same piano, nor the same as the live piano - but nevertheless, for the person buying "music teacher" software the losses are unlikely to be significant and the advantages can make it worthwhile]

The fact computers can't do it perfectly yet is probably a much better area of research from the pov of your stated aims.

Look at the market for piano tuition DVDs, books, software etc, it's flooded with methods and, generally speaking, the people who care enough about the sound to get a real piano have real teachers and buy the kind of books that are generally supplemental in nature [like Fink / Bernstein] or full of sheet music, not stuff that'll teach them to play per se. Whereas the market for computer software [and hardware] that can better bridge the gap is HUGE and encompasses everyone - beginners, teachers, professional gigging musicians etc etc.

Offline Dazzer

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1021
Quote
Dazzer, are you sure which one of your notes is louder or softer? I am doing this way many decades, and I am still doing mistakes sometimes, and sometimes I am wasting a lot of time to analize: what in fact I am doing in this particular spot? Which of my notes do I play louder or softer?

I need computer to help me to understand my own actions, I need computer to understand the secrets of actions of other artists who do something better than I do, my students need computer for the same purposes. Maybe you are perfect and do not need to improve your knowledge but have mercy to others. V.D.

isn't that what being a musician is about? listening. not using a computer.

i'm not saying i'm perfect. however, if the student begins to depend on this "tool", and in fact, become heavily dependant on it for performance, i'd find that alot of listening goes out the window. and again: regurtitation.

I find that alot of this happens in schools today, especially in literature studies. The student simply listens to what the teacher says about the particular text, takes down notes, and in an exam, simply paraphrases it. Isit an understanding of the text? no. Simply the memorising of notes. Of course, that doesn't apply to everyone.

So, yet again, the focus here is on listening. That's what makes every performance different really.

OH yes, i was wondering... if this program of yours actually exists? or is it simply a concept of yours?

Offline JPRitchie

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Hi Vladimir,
   
       Thanks for the e-mails; we have a mutual interest in promoting computers and music.  Although, honestly, the ideas you are espousing here aren't really new, newer technology makes them more practical. Enormous variation is indeed possible, but all the technology is available to create highly accurate performances of any score ( even Nancarrow's), even novel ones, and has been for awhile. I'm not going to lay out here all the details and corrections of critics - it took me a some time to discover them and they are potentially valuable - but, if there's something to be done in the area, I'm willing to discuss it privately. The computer can play notes at arbitrary speed and more accurately than a human - just like it can do long numerical computations. Some MIDI performances do sound like crap, but very few use acoustics. Fundamentally, there's no reason a well-equipped programmer's interpretation of a composition is inherently less artistic or valuable than that of a similar performer's; despite some idiom, they work from the same set of directions. Indeed, for notated rhythms, computer performances are guaranteed accurate and verifiable. Very small offsets in rhythm, even in one hand, can affect harmonies quite noticeably because of the wave nature of sound. MIDI also allows individualized interpretations.

Regards,
Jim Ritchie

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
don't be pedantic.  and orange is just as bad.  why don't you try..... oh say......... white?  Like everyone else?

ANSWER

Because it is very difficult to understand from the mono-colored text: who is yourself and who is your opponent. Everything is mixed up.
Two contrasting colors should work much better.

                                                                           V.D.

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338

So, yet again, the focus here is on listening. That's what makes every performance different really.

ANSWER

I did not meet even single pianist in my life yet, who was able to say, which of the notes is louder and which is softer? In spite of my watching of many and many teachers (including the best ones) and their lessons and masterclasses. All of them, in all the countries played in one way and taught in opposite. Not because they were all idiots, but because it is really difficult to understand: which signal in your brain has arrived from ears, which - from fingers,
and which from your artistic imagination. I am better than many in this differentiation because I am busy on this topic for decades. I am doing mistakes sometimes as well, but I know the techniques to catch and to fix this mistakes.

If you are doing all of these easily with just your listening - you are a real phenomenon. I'd like to buy airticket and look at you and your unusual abilities. But let us delay my flight untill I will make recording of several tones and chords and our readers will answer my questions about the relative intensity of each of them. Then we can decide if your abiliti to listening is above average or not? V.D.

OH yes, i was wondering... if this program of yours actually exists? or is it simply a concept of yours?
 All the components of this program are existing in reality, but they are working in different
devices of different companies.

The most mighty of them are complete dummies in music, and  swear to me  that "any professional teacher of music will answer all my questions and teach me anything that I need without any devices and software".

All the best!

Vladimir Dounin.
Quote

Offline mound

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 554
ANSWER

Because it is very difficult to understand from the mono-colored text: who is yourself and who is your opponent. Everything is mixed up.
Two contrasting colors should work much better.

                                                                           V.D.

That is because you are using the quote feature incorrectly.  To enclose the response of another, you should do :

<quote> your opponents writings in here </quote>

your ANSWER here

<quote> more of your opponents writings in here</quote>
your ANSWER HERE

if you put your ANSWER within the <quote> .. </quote> tag, your answers will appear the same color.

note, I have used angle brackets < > rather than the square brackets so that they would be visible within the post.

If you simply use the insert quote button on the reply, it will quote the entire message. For you to then insert ANSWER text within that large quoted body of text, you have to manually enter an "end quote" tag , write your answer, and then start a new "begin quote" tag.

several of your replies show that you did insert quote, and then wrote your own text within the quote, changing it orange so that we could differentiate, whereas ending the quote prior to your answer would have done that for you.

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
Re: Congrats! We have made history ("Fur Elise", "Moonlight" by Beethoven)
«Reply #62 on: August 01, 2005, 08:16:48 AM »
Hi Vladimir,
 Fundamentally, there's no reason a well-equipped programmer's interpretation of a composition is inherently less artistic or valuable than that of a similar performer's; despite some idiom, they work from the same set of directions. Indeed, for notated rhythms, computer performances are guaranteed accurate and verifiable. Very small offsets in rhythm, even in one hand, can affect harmonies quite noticeably because of the wave nature of sound. MIDI also allows individualized interpretations.

Regards,
Jim Ritchie

ANSWER

Dear Jim,

Thank you very much! Your comments are always very informative and full of real professionalism. I hope to discuss  our existing opportunities to make something real out of all this ideas in the close future.

Please, have a look at my"Super-Project globELISEtion". Would'nt you like to take part, to write comments?

All the best!

V.D.

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
Re: Congrats! We have made history ("Fur Elise", "Moonlight" by Beethoven)
«Reply #63 on: August 01, 2005, 08:28:26 AM »
<That is because you are using the quote feature incorrectly.  To enclose the response of another, you should do :
your opponents writings in here </quote>



ANSWER

Thank you very much for your clear and detailed instructions. However you can see, that "my color" is still the same as "my opponent" in spite of I did everything to the sign of quote as you instructed. And the sign of quote below I deleted a few times, but it appears again and again. What is wrong then?

Maybe you wouldn't mind to help me with my "Super-Project globELISEtion as well?

I will really appreciate!

Vladimir Dounin

Offline fred smalls

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 332
Re: Congrats! We have made history ("Fur Elise", "Moonlight" by Beethoven)
«Reply #64 on: August 01, 2005, 06:45:07 PM »
Congrats to any of the people who have the stamina to read an entire post from this thread.  I really have no clue whats going on.  I got bored after the first paragraph of the first post.  And every post from there on is like 10 paragraphs, wow!  Good job those with extreme concentration. 

 ;)
Fred Smalls
Medtner is my god.

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
Re: Congrats! We have made history ("Fur Elise", "Moonlight" by Beethoven)
«Reply #65 on: August 02, 2005, 03:06:16 AM »
I really have no clue whats going on.  I got bored after the first paragraph of the first post.  And every post from there on is like 10 paragraphs, wow!  Good job those with extreme concentration. 

 ;)
Fred Smalls

ANSWER

There is nothing to be suprised. Everything around us looks not interesting and boring if we do not know enough about this particular subject. However, the more we discover  - the more interesting look the  problems. And at the end of our long way we realize (like it happened many times to the  greatest thinkers, philosophers, scientists etc.) that we do not know anything in fact. From this point everything becomes interesting for us till the end of our lives, and we appreciate each new opportunity to enhance our knowledge.

I agree with you because I know, that for many modern students absolutely normal, ordinary level of concentration looks already as extreme. However, without regular efforts and permanent  training you never will improve your concentration.

V.D.