.

[m1469]

I have been vaguely thinking about this topic mainly from the perspective of being a student, but I have realized the importance of thinking about this seriously from the perspective of being a teacher.

I find it is a balance sometimes to know how much to say to a student and so on in order to encourage without overpowering.  I wonder if there are more specific ways that a teacher could possibly stunt a student's individual growth that teachers may want to be aware of ?

For example, I think that a teacher whose teaching involves always picking out music for the student (without the student having much choice in it at all : "you will play this next" ) could end up being harmful for the student's development.  Does that actually happen, btw ?

I am definitely not wanting to teacher bash, but I feel it would be helpful to know of ways in which a teacher may want to tread lightly.  As a teacher myself, I would appreciate many a perspective on this.

Maybe everything a teacher does could be *possibly* harmful...LOL.  Gotta love the art of teaching.


m1469 

[jeremyjchilds]

I'm interested to hear what people will say in opposition to my following statement.

I think the worst way to stunt a student is to praise him too much.

I had about three teachers growing up, and they all praised me. "this is the most gifted student I have ever worked with" etc.

What I just said is not bragging, because when I studied music at a college level, I realized three years  into it, that I was not really all that good. When i made that realizaiton, I embraced my weaknesses, and attacked them, rather than ignoring them.

When I first started teaching, I used the old rule..two nice things for every bad thing said about your student' playing. My students from that period of my teaching took my praise for granted, and many have lost interest.

When I noticed this, I slowly began teaching more firmly.. saving any praise for when it was truly truly needed. My students began taking thier studies more seriously, and I don't feel like a gushing praise-o-matic 2000 anymore.

As far as stunting growth, I think too much praise causes a student to be unrealistic about the amount of work that piano takes. It can also cause them to aviod thier weaknesses.

Since I have been praising less, I have made many students cry, but strangely, I have not lost any students because of it, and none of them seem to enjoy lessons less. I think it gives them the impression that we are really going to do something , not just have fun.

I should note that my approach is age-specific, I do not pride my self on making 5-yr. old's cry  

[Torp]

I'm interested to hear what people will say in opposition to my following statement.

I think the worst way to stunt a student is to praise him too much.

You won't get any opposition from me.  I'd probably take it one step further and say that praise itself is a problem and any is too much.  Praise is an external reward, much like money.  Somehow, we should develop children in such a way that they gain internal rewards for their own accomplishments.  I'll leave it at that for now...

[ted]

I'm in two minds about praise. My teacher virtually never praised, but years later when I spoke to his family it came out that I had apparently been his special pupil for years - very embarrassing. I suppose he knew what he was doing but there were times I could have done with a bit more encouragement.

Thank goodness I am not a teacher. I think having to decide how much to change and how much to leave alone in a pupil, especially one who is very different, must be walking a tightrope. Leave too much alone and he won't develop techniques, change too much and you destroy all else. 

[lagin]

I totally see your guys point, but must personally disagree.  My teacher's best motivator for me is praise.  I could very well be an odd ball though.  Those of you who know me, don't answer that, lol!  If she tells me she's proud of me, or that she can see I've been working hard, it inspires me to further please her all the more.  If I go to a lesson and nothing seems to be going right, and I get much criticism, I think, "What's the use?  It's never gonna be good enough."  This is usually followed by a few days of not touching the piano, before I drag myself back up on the horse.  It's hard to say with kids though.  I'm an adult student, so if I have a bad lesson, it is seldom from lack of practicing.  In fact the worst lessons are usually the ones before a festival or whatever, when I need to fix a whole bunch of things and fix them pronto.  So I usually end up feeling dejected because I tried hard, but it wasn't enough.  With kids on the other hand.....If they slack off, maybe they need a not so great lesson, or else they will learn that mediocre or even no effort will still be lavished with praise.  I guess it all depends on each student.  On the other hand with me too, if I get good adjudicator comments I tend to "sit back in ease," but if they are negative, I have more motivation to fix things.  But that's with adjudicators whom I don't know.  With my teacher, who is also becoming somewhat of a friend (in a teacherly sort of way), over the years, I'd definately say praise works very well for me.  Ah!  Now I'm thinking what I typed over again.  It totally depends on the individual, I think.  A teacher must evaluate what makes and breaks each student, and should hopefully be good enough to do this without a lot of "breaking."  My 3 cents

[Bob]

The teacher can help figure out what the student is interested in and how they should go about studying that.

The student should be interested in this too.  If they want to go along with whatever the teacher says, than they end up with whatever the teacher knows.



There are plenty of ways a teacher can hold a student back -- not motivating them enough, not teaching them the right thing at the right time, not covering the material with enough depth, not covering enough area of material.  Yes, there's plenty to make you feel guilty and plenty of ways you can critize your own teacher.

I think the teacher needs to show a student how to do thing, like interpretation and fingering, and then gradually pull back that help as the student learns to do these things for themself.

If the student doesn't like the teaching, or feels the teacher is holding them back, the student needs to bring up that idea with the teacher (with tact of course).

If the student wants, they can always find another teacher that won't hold them back.



I don't think praise is bad.  Puffing the student's ego up too much can be bad if the student gets the impression their playing is really better than it is.  On the other hand, it may not be a good idea to make the student too aware of their level if they realize the amount of work it will take to make progress.

For jeremychilds, if a teacher has a group of students who don't practice and one that does, then it's easy for the teacher to say things like "You're the best student I've ever had."  That 'best' student is more enjoyable to work with and is a relief from the pains it takes to teach the others.


Maybe you make praise appears more as a diagnosis -- good, good, good, and now here's something we can improve.  That way the student knows they do some things well according to the teacher's standards, but there are still things to work on.

I think there's a difference between praising the real accomplishments and praising the effort the student puts in. 

I also think with some students you need to stay positive and be patient with them when they're not practicing.

I'm thinking of kids here in terms of teaching.  For adults, they can see bs.  I think the praise for them is more like "Yeah, that's it" when they get it right.  They don't need a big show in terms of praise.  They know when they've got it right and you're acknowledging that is a reward.


A teacher can also praise when they don't know what else to do.  You work but don't make progress.  You follow the teacher's directions.  The teacher doesn't know what to do, so they tell you what a great job you're doing.  It protects the teacher in a sense because you will have a more favorable attitude toward them.  And maybe a learning plateau occurs and when you get over it, you don't realize the teacher didn't know what to do.


If you consistently praise a student, I think they will realize this after awhile and it will have no effect.  They will know whether they work or not they will get some praise and the effect is lessened.

Personally, I find praise nice.  It's nice to be recognized and have someone acknowledge your accomplishment.  If not for that, I would check that accomplishment off the list and move on the next one without really enjoying it.  I don't buy all the priase though because I know there are many reasons for it and some is bs.  So, I think whether there are good or bad comments you should just keep working because that's how you will make progress regardless of how you feel or what people think.

As a teacher, I want to remain objective and tell my students what I see that's good and bad.  I do realize with some students this may crush them if I focus too much on what they need to improve.

In the lesson, you can praise them immediately -- while playing or just after.  Then you can "review" the lesson at the end and remind them they did well on certain things.  Then you can tell the parent what good things the student did and what you're working on.



How else can a teacher stunt a student's growth?  Are they teaching them all the areas of music -- jazz, improvisation, composition, ear training and theory, a little music history, some listening so the student knows the great performers and great pieces of music, providing lots of performance opportunities.....   That's a lot.  I think it can be done at a very basic level, but there's only so much a teacher can do.  If the student doesn't like it, then that student is probably smart enough to find the teacher they need.

Oh yes.. is the teacher inspiring the student to reach their full human potential?  Possibly, but that's a lot to ask a teacher to do for every student.

[m1469]

I suppose he knew what he was doing but there were times I could have done with a bit more encouragement.

Just out of curiousity, Ted, do you think more encouragement would have made much difference for you overall ?  If so, and you don't mind too much sharing, in what ways ?  It would be helpful for me to know.

(the rest of the posts here, I am still working on in my noggin)

m1469

[jeremyjchilds]

I would like to personally thank Bob for making me want to stop teaching and get into the pet grooming industry...

[rhapsody in orange]

Well I agree with Bob that too much praise will make it lose its effect. As for praising them for their effort rather than their accomplishment, I'd think it's a good idea. I'm currently teaching a student who's rather slow at note-reading and learning, so instead of saying "good job" at the end of the piece, I'd encourage her by saying that she's improving and that she'll probably be able to play that soon provided she practises consistently. Somehow, I think that encouragement is important to a student especially if s/he been working on something and yet see no significant progress (sometimes it's just a matter of patience.. I realise they are not exactly very patient when it comes to learning notes with lots of accidentals etc).

As for how a teacher might stunt a student's growth, I'd say it's too much spoon-feeding. I personally had this experience with my previous teacher. I would be asked to sight-read a new piece at her place, and she'd feed me with the necessary fingerings, pedal markings, interpretation stuff. And then all I had to do when I got home was to practise to get all those in place. Not much of thinking needed.

I very much prefer the way I'm having lessons now. The teacher gives a piece in advance so I work on it myself, and he listens to it when it's almost done. In a way I get to experiment with the piece myself, and he'd correct me if something is not done right. This gives me more independence and gives me more freedom to think how I want the music to be like.
 

[Siberian Husky]

i'd stop taking lessons if my teacher insisted on picking out music for me on a strict basis..i pay her to learn to play whatever i feel like playing..

[ted]

m1469:

No, I guess you've got me there. It probably wouldn't have made any difference. He was okay as he was, warts and all. He showed me my path, and that, in the end, is all that matters.

[m1469]

m1469:

No, I guess you've got me there. It probably wouldn't have made any difference. He was okay as he was, warts and all. He showed me my path, and that, in the end, is all that matters.

he he, well, I was not trying to trap you (don't listen to her, she's lying  ), but yes, I am pleased by the answer 


m1469

[Bob]

jeremy, no problem.   Teaching, pet grooming.... It's all the same isn't it?  I think teaching will prepare you well for pet grooming.

As a teacher, I know there are limitations.  That's how I get around the guilt.  And I figure if they don't like my teaching, they can find another teacher.

With myself at least, I try to figure what it is I am actually teaching.  That way it's clear what I will focus on and what areas I don't have down yet and need to work on.

[anda]

in a billion ways, all growing from the same root: not knowing the person.

I'm interested to hear what people will say in opposition to my following statement.

I think the worst way to stunt a student is to praise him too much.

When I first started teaching, I used the old rule..two nice things for every bad thing said about your student' playing. My students from that period of my teaching took my praise for granted, and many have lost interest.

When I noticed this, I slowly began teaching more firmly.. saving any praise for when it was truly truly needed. My students began taking thier studies more seriously, and I don't feel like a gushing praise-o-matic 2000 anymore.
 

students are different, some respond well to praise and some respond better to a more severe treatment. anyway, i think the key is to find the best balance between praise and constructive criticism - i mean the best for that particular student. (imho, of course)

edit: one of the things i would consider completely forbidden: harsh irony, humiliating observations and anything else in this area - that's a guaranteed destructive factor.

[clariniano]

I think students are much more likely to stunt their own growth by doubting themselves that they "can't do" something. Also sometimes parents can stunt the student's growth, most often by not providing a proper piano for lessons...

That being said, there are some ways a teacher can student a student's growth...

1. Talking too much.
2. Using a poor method, or none at all (Alfred's beginner method comes to mind)
3. Being taught wrong techniques. (like piano students in some group classes being taught to jump the hand, and not tuck the thumb under!)
4. Underestimating the student's intellectual capacity to understand some of the subleties of learning music, and making it expressive.
5. Not challenging the student's limits within their current level.
6. Not encouraging students to try to figure out things for themselves.
7. Not asking questions that challenge the student's intellectual understanding. (eg: I asked one of my 10-year-old piano students why two notes a second apart were fingered 1-5. He saw immediately it was because of the pattern that continues downwards!)

That's all I can think of for now...

Meri

[i_m_robot]

breaking the childs legs always works

or a bat to the back

but most important

tell the child noone loves it

[Torp]

Food for thought...

What's the difference between Praise and Encouragement?

As you contemplate this, you will likely find that the most important and motivating feedback you receive from people comes in the form of encouragement, and not from praise.  Though I would also say that most people will tend to use these terms synonomously.

Jef

[m1469]

Food for thought...

What's the difference between Praise and Encouragement?

Jef

I was thinking the very same thing a little while back, it's one of the things I have been pondering.  I did not ask this because I thought people might think it was a matter of splitting hairs, I am happy you brought it out though.

Thanks for the continued replies people , this thread is making me think more than I thought I would... he he


m1469

[rhapsody in orange]

praise - verb say that somebody or something is very good.
encourage - verb give confidence or hope; hearten.

Got that offa dictionary. So when a student's been working hard and yet the piece's not up to standard yet, it would be better to encourage him/her rather than to praise (which would mean that the teacher's lying hee).

[Bob]

Encouragement from the teacher: "My god... did THAT suck!.... But hang in there and keep it!   'Atta boy!"

Praise from the teacher: "Good job!  Nicely done!  It didn't suck at all that time!"


The dark side of praise and encouragement I guess.


Seriously, I think you can be honest and tell the student that you don't think their playing was the best they could do.  And you can encourage them by telling them it takes time for things to develop, that they still need to put in effort for things to happen down the road if this isn't their best day, that idea.

[m1469]

You won't get any opposition from me.  I'd probably take it one step further and say that praise itself is a problem and any is too much.  Praise is an external reward, much like money.  Somehow, we should develop children in such a way that they gain internal rewards for their own accomplishments.  I'll leave it at that for now...

Food for thought...

What's the difference between Praise and Encouragement?

As you contemplate this, you will likely find that the most important and motivating feedback you receive from people comes in the form of encouragement, and not from praise. Though I would also say that most people will tend to use these terms synonomously.

Jef

Well, I have been thinking quite in depth on this subject and will try to pull my thoughts together into one cohesive post.  I have found that I could not really isolate issues, so this post may become the essence of my very teaching (and learning) practice...heh.

In many places, if not most places on the globe, the external rewards for one's efforts, whatever the endeavor, are generally recognized or thought of as "valuable" far more consistently and influentially than the internal rewards for one's efforts.  There are seemingly caustic thought-trends and currents predominating in societies and cultures that will place pressure on and seemingly collapse the integrity of any mind that is not firmly grounded in a sense of great fortitude.  An interesting dichotomy occurs :

The more one sees oneself as an isolated (though one of many), groundless being, floating through existence and time without compass, place nor direction, the more his/her individuality is seemingly gobbled up by the caustic currents and trends of those "cultures" and societies which surround them.  It is the isolated thought whom believes s/he can harm another without harming himself and it is the isolated thought whom believes s/he can do good by somebody else without doing good by himself and vice versa.   

These thought-patterns reflect a level of being which does not even recognize, let alone *value* the internal rewards of an honest effort.  What IS an honest effort ?  It doesn't even know.   It is this thought-pattern and level of being which is always trying to "get ahead" and come out on top.  The caustic trends of society treats itself as though being "on top" is of the highest value and perhaps the only value.  This thought-pattern thirsts and hungers after praise, validation, personal recognition and various unquenching external "rewards".  Every human being in the throws of these tides (perhaps everyone in existence), wrestles with these influences on their thought in one form or another.

Helping one to value the internal rewards of their efforts, put into what they may view as an isolated area of study, is no small task, it would seem.  It involves encouraging the individual's level of being to grow in such a way that one will *be able* to recognize, see the value in, and seek the inward rewards of an honest effort, AND develop a continuous and exponentially increasing appetite for and relationship with, this kind of reward.  None-the-less, this must be done in the midsts of their being surrounded by and bombarded by thought which does not necessarily recognize nor value this growth, as achievement and success.  Incidentally, it would seem to me, the only teacher capable of helping a student to recognize these things, is the *teacher* whom has learned to a large degree, to recognize, value, and seek the inward rewards vs the external. 

Because of the nature of and complexity of this issue, I believe there is something to be said for meeting students where they are at as individuals.  What do they currently value ?  They cannot be taught instantly to value the internal rewards over the external, if there is virtually the non-existence of a trained mechanism which recognizes the different rewards for what they are.  The mechanism itself must be trained and encouraged into "proper" channels through ways they will understand and be able to grasp hold of, rather than forcing them to deal with a stark and perhaps too blunt contrast between the world they grew up in/are growing up in and the world they are discovering through their explorations with their awakening musicianship.

With this question in mind : "What is the difference between praise vs encouragement ?"... I have realized it is perhaps more palpable for me to consider the question... "What is the difference between the *functions* of praise vs encouragement".   

To discern a path which may give our teaching and the student's learning a context, and our encouragement or praise an actual function, I find as necessary accompanists to those questions above, the following questions :

What are the patterns of (encouragement/praise) ?
Where do they lead ?
What is really being learned by ?
What truly serves the greater lesson ? 
Is there a time to choose one's battles so as not to create even *more* hinderance ?

Helping one grow to the point of recognizing and valuing the internal rewards of the efforts they are putting into piano, is not, as it turns out (and has been mentioned before), an isolated challenge.  One must consider cultural influences and the like, and be willing to take the idividual where they are at.  Encouragement comes in many forms, circumstances and guises, and should ultimately function (in my opinion) as an agent of leavening, inspiration, and compassion toward the sharpening of one primary tool : NAVIGATION.


There is more to this, but I can't think any more... LOL


m1469 




ps- I feel naked 

[m1469]

Okay ... he he.  Maybe my last post could have been condensed to this question :

Is there no place for positive feedback ? 

"That worked" .... for example.  If not, I don't really get it.  People need to develop a critical ear, and if they do not know when they are doing something desirable, they will not know how to discern the difference between something done well and something that needs work.  Or is that the idea to only give feedback on what needs improvement ?



m1469

(somehow I got all tangled up again  )

[amanfang]

I don't know if this adds anything, but I will give my opinion on encouragement from my perspective as a student.  In high school, I had a teacher who every week basically said, "It sounds great.  Keep working on it."  And that was about the extent of the lesson.  She would point out obvious flaws, such as wrong notes or passages where I would slow down because I couldn't play them up to speed with the rest of the piece.  Otherwise, I was a "great student" and was "doing a wonderful job."  The fact that I only made it through about 4 or 5 pieces in about 3 years is beside the point...

  So in college, my teacher was not like that at all.  I can remember being so disheartened the first year because I felt like I was the worst piano student he had ever had.  On the other hand, he taught me how to make MUSIC on the piano.

  Through the next few years, I can remember that some lessons all he would do would be to pick apart my pieces.  No "praise" whatsoever.  Sometimes not even encouragement.  I would leave some of those lessons totally unmotivated to practice.  But sometimes, there would be that comment of "Wow!  You've worked hard and I can really see improvement!"  Then we would proceed to take apart the piece and see what I could do to continue to improve.  Those were the lessons that I would leave feeling like I could play anything when I work hard, and I would be so excited to go practice for the next week.  My teacher's praise was usually reserved only for performances or for the lessons right before performances to boost confidence.

So I guess what I'm saying is, find the motivation that works.  A combination worked well for me.  I will say, that when I got encouragement/praise with my college teacher, I found it to be so much more genuine because it wasn't always shelled out, but if I never got it, or almost never got it, I would be quite the discouraged piano student.

[pianonut]

mayla,

i was struck by your question, "what is honest effort."  that's where getting to know your students is really important.  i think it's nice to chat once in awhile to see what is going on in the students life.  if they always have excuses, of course that's no good.  but, if they are having a bad week versus many good weeks, there's hope.  imo, they should be practicing every day for at least the amount of time as the lesson.

my kids have a lot of homework after school.  i can imagine that time is becoming more of an issue for parents and students.  rewards cannot help with the time issue that much.  it all still has to get done.  what i think kids and adults find motivating is actually making progress.  this is usually done the fastest right before a performance or recital.  having recitals once in awhile lets the students see what is possible (with some of your better students motivating the ones who don't practice as much).

i still like to give out pencils, erasers, stickers, etc. for the smaller kids, but i can't think of a reward for young adults or adults that would match praise.  or, occasionally asking them if they want to borrow a book, watch a video, or go to a concert (free ticket).  music can become a community and not just a thing you do.

[m1469]

Okay, thinking further, I kind of wonder if the point is simply that, ultimately, "praise" is just not truly encouraging. (?)  But, I am not even sure to understand what the heck is "praise" anyway ?


m1469

[hannon_freek]

Referring to the continuing debate between praise and encouragement originally started by Torp on July 22 (coincidently my wife's birthday!!), I DISagree with some of what has been said. I feel that praise IS truly encouraging - I used to be a student myself, and was encouraged by the exaltment from my teacher simply because I genuinely thought I wasn't good (not true now thankfully - with thanks to Hanon), so this made me try to live up to their 'expectations'.

But seriously now referring to the original topic of this thread, I teach my students for 2 months - and then decide if I think they have potential or not. Lately I have been reconsidering this 'audition time' for less as I find my teaching gives an unfair advantage. If I don't want to teach a pupil any longer I can send them a polite letter saying they need not attend anymore, or introduce them slowly in lessons to a new hobby e.g. stamp collecting or horses, although it is rare I use these examples (I will tailor it to the character of the child).

It is rare, if ever that I praise one of my students ... but occasionally I will get the next Chopin come along who actually practises theory so I would reward him with something novel - perhaps a book token for one of my publications, or a french croissant.

[bernhard]

Yes, praise is very important. However even more important is how you praise

Consider this:

You invite someone for a nice meal at your home, a meal you spend a lot of time and expertise preparing. At the end of the meal the guest says:

-      Oh, That was delicious! What a nice meal you prepared!

This is probably what everyone unthinkingly does. Would you feel satisfied with that sort of compliment? Or would you feel a bit of an anticlimax, as if the person was “just saying it”?

Now consider this different response from another guest:

-      I noticed that you used pine seeds in the spinach dish. They were roasted, were they not? I could tell by the enhanced flavour. And their crunchiness complemented very well the mushiness of the spinach. And I was wondering how you got the roast beef to be pink in the middle like that. How do you know when to get it off the heat?

I am sure you will agree that this response is much more satisfying then the one from the first guest. Interestingly enough, the second guest at no moment tells you if he liked the food, or if he thought the meal was good. And yet you feel thoroughly praised

The difference is that the second guest is showing appreciation: his comments show that he paid attention and recognised the work you went through.

So , the structure of effective praising is not to use vague adjectives that say nothing, but simply to describe back to the person you want to compliment in as precise way as you can manage, what they did. You see, complimenting people in this very effective way demands a lot of effort on your part. You cannot just gobble on the food and say “this is nice”. You must actually appreciate the food and inquire of yourself, what is it that makes this food special?

And if you avoid using any positive adjectives at all (as the second guest did), you will not only get the response you wish (the cook will be very pleased, I assure you), as no one can accuse you of patronising behaviour (as you actually never complimented the cook: you simply described back to him what he was already doing).

I would strongly suggest that one spends a week practising this form of compliment (if you are not used to it) with friends and family – and observing the amazing results – before actually trying it with your students, so it becomes second nature and it does not sound artificial.

In fact I would suggest that you never again use the first form of compliment (it is not effective anyway) and from now on just use the second.

Interestingly enough the same applies to criticism. Effective criticism must describe back to the person in as much detail as possible what they actually did.

Once this idea of “describing back”.is fully internalised and put into practice, the boundaries between criticism and praise will not be that clear anymore, and the whole problem of criticising / praising simply disappears.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[guru_of_time]

I had one teacher for the first 7 years of playing and then I moved. The teacher did not push students at all, so when I was in my last of taking from her, I finally realized that "Wow, I'm not as good as everyone my age." She didn't push at all and she chose the pieces.
Then, (luckily, I guess) I moved and the new teacher pushed and let me choose between a few pieces to play. Then, I decided that I would choose what pieces that I wanted to play. That was the big turning point. It gave me a clear goal and I wanted to practice the snot out of each piece so I could perfect it faster and then learn other pieces that I wanted to.

So, I guess it all comes down to pushing your students (maybe not too hard at first) and making themselves want to improve. Recitals are a good way to do that I suppose.  Expose them to players around their same age. Maybe give them a CD or two that the songs are at their current level or a little more difficult and then let them pick. So, a good strategy would be to let them choose one piece out of maybe 3 or 4, and then keep increasing the number of pieces to choose from, until (ultimately) they choose what they want to play. Oh, and now because of my own pushing, I'm better than others my age and most above me.

Pushing = good

There's my 2 cents.

[timothy42b]

False praise = bad.  Real praise = essential.  Maybe, anyway. 

I have noticed that my daughter works approximately four times harder at math than piano. 

The most obvious difference is that she gets a grade in math.  That A is extremely important to her.  As her Dad, I don't care that much as long as she does her best, but somehow for her it is an awesome motivator.

Anybody give a grade for piano? 

[jeremyjchilds]

Anybody give a grade for piano? 

Well. other than exams, I give progress reports to all of the parents that outline where we have come and where we are going.