Mathematical relation between practicing speeds ?

[goran]

I am practicing the number 1 Invention (BWV772).
This is my very first piece. I could not resist trying it.

I have two posts here before:
"How to use a metronome with 1/16-notes" and  "Invention no1 fourth trill fingering"
I am very grateful for all Your the answers and I have learned much here so far.

My piano knowledge is absolutely zero so I really appreciate every answer I can get.

I am practicing at 55 bpm (with metronome). This is probably about the right speed for a total beginner ( and mabe I will stop at this speed). But if I allso want to practice at a slower speed (and I think I should). What slower speed to choose.

Is there (maybe) some mathematical relation between speeds that go together (so that the muscles function about the same at both speeds).

[asyncopated]

Hi Goran,

I too am at the moment learning a bach invention - no. 8.  So far, I can play three them reasonably and am fiddling around with another three ( I will learn them properly at some point).  I too am facing some problems with speed.  I'm trying to play this invention quickly. 

Here is some of what I've learnt from both articles here and from my teacher, which might help. 

As to what I remember, I had to go around redoing the first invention a few times over the last year as my technique improved.  So don't worry too much about details if this is your first piece.  As long as you can execute it cleanly and honestly, it should be fine for now.  A noble first goal.

There are several (actually, many) articles on how to learn this invention, and I advice reading them and following to a large extent what they say, particularly particles by bernhard, xvimbi,m1469and the usual suspects. 

Having tinkered around with other work (mozart, beethovan), inventions have particular difficulties for a number of reasons.  The two hands carry equal voices and they are very technical pieces in terms of composition.   There is no quiet hand (one hand playing chords, or an accompaniment).  So be assured that it takes time to learn an invention.  Even after you have learnt it, it will change when you revisit it after some time.

My advice is try not to use a metronome.  Feel the pulse on your own and don't rely on something as distracting as a metronome.   Use it only as a guide.  If you find it difficult to keep time, tap your foot and play one hand at a time.

Play hands separately at different speeds before playing hands together.  Especially since you have just started.  Also, stick to the same fingering after you have figured it out.

It is important to play both at slow and fast speeds.  At slow speeds you get to feel the movement properly and adjust on the fly.  But you can't learn velocity just by playing slowly.  You have to also try playing at tempo and slightly above the speed you want to perform at.  It is psychological thing.  If you know you can execute a piece at a faster speed, playing at the correct speed becomes easier.   Remember that speed for bach is pretty subjective.  Bach did not put any speed makings and left them to person interpreting his works.

Relax your hands, sholders and back, get rid of any tension, and don't co-contract opposing muscles whilst playing.  There is a natural tendency when playing fast to tense up.  You must avoid this.  Keep your hand in as natural a shape as possible.  Play with your whole body, not just your fingers and explore movement.  The inventions are very much a dance with your left and right arms.  The movements are complex. The aim is to render them as naturally and as fluidly as possible.  Only when you do this is it possible to play at fast speeds.

The final thing is articulate and breath.  This will help with pulse and rhythm.  I just hand a big lesson with my teacher on breathing in a piece, and boy does it make a huge difference. 

Take speed into account within the context of other technical issues, voicing, phrasing, rhythm, articulation, movement, etc.  It is not really a technique on it's own but an amalgamation of these other techniques executed cleanly within the context of the work.

Finally, for the paradox.  Remember that good fast playing doesn't actually sound fast.  It does not sound like you are running out of breath and running through note just for the sake of it.  It should sound easy and even leisurely.


Hope this helps.

al.

[bernhard]

Have a look here and then come back with more questions :

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4736.0.html
(invention 4 – comparison with chess game and Escher)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1911.msg14853.html#msg14853
(Invention no. 8 – relative difficulty of the inventions – progressive order of Bach’s keyboard works – CD  recommendations)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2714.msg23310.html#msg23310
(how to teach invention no. 1)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3187.msg27993.html#msg27993
(order of difficulty of the inventions)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4736.msg44774.html#msg44774
(how to play inventions – Escher picture – Example: Invention 4 – Analogy with the game of chess)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5055.msg48120.html#msg48120
(fingering for sinfonia no. 9)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5143.msg49995.html#msg49995
(Inventions and sinfonias: Bach’s pedagogical order of difficulty)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7857.msg78912.html#msg78912
(ornamentation and inventions – general discussion on ornamentation)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7246.msg72307.html#msg72307
(how to outline invention 14)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8015.msg81149.html#msg81149
(ornamentation of invention no. 1)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[goran]

Al,

There is also something more than a psychological thing playing at above the speed you want to perform at. If I play a couple of times faster and then go back to normal speed it feels so slow. But then the next time I practice normal is normal again. It's like driving car fast for a while. Then normal speed feels very slow but the next day normal speed just feels normal again.

--------------



Bernhard,

I have been reading through these links. I have saved them and will read them over and over again.

1.)
But I can not find anything about "slow speed" practicing. After all my 55bpm is kind of just that ("slow speed" practicing). I mean slow speed practicing with both hands together.

Or is this "slow speed practicing" just for hands separated ?
(I have Changs boook but have not red it).
 


Some more qustions:

2.) 
The second mordent (measure 13) on note D: seems to be "D-C-D" (link 10). But I play (before I saw this) "D-C#-D". When I just play the notes on the piano I prefer this ("D-C#-D") but when testing in it i Finale (musical notation software) I don't hear that much difference.

Is this "D-C#-D" allso  OK or is it totally wrong ?

3.)
Many (if not all here) seems to abondon the metronome or use it at a bare minimum argumenting that it will make you lose your internal rhythm. If this was so the same would be true for anybody playing in a band (bass+drums = metronome). I don't think playing together with someone else make you lose your internal rhythm.

I suspect that one should practice mostly with a metronome (at least until one can play it "well"). Though I agree that the metronome can be very frustrating. And just putting the metronome at 55bpm (compared to 220bpm + accent every fourth beat) give you quite a lot of freedom between beats.

I have just practiced this (just putting the metronome at 55bpm and not to 220bpm + accent) a couple of days and I'm quite good at it already. Also the metronome is kind of substitute for a teacher (when you have none) helping you find local timing errors.

Should I really stop practicing with the metronome ?

4.)
I have allso tested different ornamentations in measure 1-2  (with the Finale software) I find the "turn" very nice.
In measure 1: c-b-a-b.

Are there someone (performer or something like that..) actually doing this ornamentation in that manner  ?

Göran/Sweden

[bernhard]

1.)   
But I can not find anything about "slow speed" practicing. After all my 55bpm is kind of just that ("slow speed" practicing). I mean slow speed practicing with both hands together.

Or is this "slow speed practicing" just for hands separated ?
(I have Changs boook but have not red it).

Have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2255.msg19129.html#msg19129
(practising long pieces – Good discussion if one should or should not listen to CDs - Slow motion practice, comparison with walking/running)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2611.msg22637.html#msg22637
(Slow practice – Glenn Gould’s finger tapping)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3778.msg35061.html#msg35061
(Speed: discussion about gradually speeding up with a metronome or using Chang’s approach)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4123.msg37829.html#msg37829
(How to investigate the best movement pattern: Example Scarlatti sonata K70 – How to work out the best fingering. Example: CPE Bach Allegro in A – Slow x slow motion practice – HS x HT – practising for only 5 – 10 minutes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1808.msg23879.html#msg23879
(Ultra fast arpeggios – slow practice x slow motion practice – good post by Herve – Abby whiteside is also mentioned)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4282.msg39831.html#msg39831
(How to increase speed: slowly using metronome x fast with chord attack – juggling and skiping rope as examples)

 

Some more questions:

2.) 
The second mordent (measure 13) on note D: seems to be "D-C-D" (link 10). But I play (before I saw this) "D-C#-D". When I just play the notes on the piano I prefer this ("D-C#-D") but when testing in it i Finale (musical notation software) I don't hear that much difference.

Is this "D-C#-D" allso  OK or is it totally wrong ?

Yes, it is totally wrong.

3.)
Many (if not all here) seems to abondon the metronome or use it at a bare minimum argumenting that it will make you lose your internal rhythm. If this was so the same would be true for anybody playing in a band (bass+drums = metronome). I don't think playing together with someone else make you lose your internal rhythm.

I suspect that one should practice mostly with a metronome (at least until one can play it "well"). Though I agree that the metronome can be very frustrating. And just putting the metronome at 55bpm (compared to 220bpm + accent every fourth beat) give you quite a lot of freedom between beats.

I have just practiced this (just putting the metronome at 55bpm and not to 220bpm + accent) a couple of days and I'm quite good at it already. Also the metronome is kind of substitute for a teacher (when you have none) helping you find local timing errors.

Should I really stop practicing with the metronome ?

The metronome is very important in the beginning to help one differentiate between rhythm and pulse.

However, once one understands (not in a purely intellectual way) this difference, the metronome should be discontinued because ultimately no piece is played metronomically. Flexibility in pulse (= agogics) is not only a powerful expressive device, as it is one of only two variables the pianist can control (the other being dynamics). So to play metronomically is to give up a huge resource.

The metronome is also useful to figure out complex rhythms, but even then, one should not trust it too much because rhythm notation is arguably the most unsatisfactory aspect of music notation. Truly one has to pretty much “guess” what the true rhythm is from the notated score. (Koji made some very interesting comments in this respect when talking about the rhythmical difficulties of Nancarrow’s “Tango?” – use the search to find it).

4.)
I have also tested different ornamentations in measure 1-2  (with the Finale software) I find the "turn" very nice.
In measure 1: c-b-a-b.

Are there someone (performer or something like that..) actually doing this ornamentation in that manner  ?

I don’t think anyone plays it like a turn (but I haven’t heard every single recording ever made) because, er… , it is not a turn.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.