BWV 115 fingering

[chadefa1]

Hi ,

While everyone is talking about fugues, Chopin nocturnes and the like, I am still a beginner and have a hard time learning easy pieces such as Bach's Menuets ( BWV 114 and 115 from the little book of Anna Magdalena...)

So, I was wondering if any one of you has the "proper" fingering for BWV 115. I really like this piece but am having a bit of trouble with the fingers...

Any help is greatly appreciated.
best,
Thomas

[xvimbi]

Those are fine pieces, particularly when played together. What is it exactly that you are struggling with?

[chadefa1]

Thank you Xvimbi. Here are my specific problems so far:

RH: bar 2, D is repeated. My book says to play the first D with 1, the second with 2. I find it first much more complicated, and it doesn't even help for the rest. I prefer to play both notes with 1...Is the book right though?

LH: bar 1: first note (G): the book says to start with 2, but I prefer 1. Also, it makes a smaller stretch afterwards.

Most important: Bars 5 to 7: I'd like to know which fingers to use for my LH so that it's easier. I play the GB "chord" using 3 and 5, but by the time I reach the end bar 7, I have to make very awkward movements.

Thanks a lot,
Thomas

[ryan2189]

Lets see here

-For your right hand in bar 2 do what feels right to you (as long as you are not struggling) The book will never be right or wrong, but the fingering they suggest is to be used as an aid. The reason they want you to switch from 1 to 2 is because there is still enough room for you to strike to G above with finger 5 and then to hit the G below with your thumb. If you hit both D's with 1 then some people might hit G with finger 3 or 4 and then they would not be able to hit the G below with their thumb.
I would suggest not to use the fingering marks unless it is necessary b/c later on certain pieces will not have fingering marks and you will eventually need to be able to figure out the fingering without the numbers.

-In bar 1 do what you are already doing if it feels comfortable. Like I said before the fingering marks are only there to assist you when necessary.

-I would suggest that you experiment with these measures. But if I were to play this piece my fingers would go as follows (for LH)

starting with GB chord with fingers 5 and 3
then 4 1 2 1 3 2 5 1 2 3 1 2 ending on the G in bar 9

(don't do 5 4 3 2 1 in bar 8 because you eventually need to go down to F and then E. That where some of your akward movements are probably coming in)

Hope I was of help.

[chadefa1]

Thank you Ryan.

I think I figured out why they use 2 instead of 1 for the first note of first bar LH. It's because bar 9 (which repeats the sequence) starts with 2, so that you only need to learn one fingering.

Your fingering works very well. However, I find the change from 4 to 1 in bar 5 very awkward, especially b/c it's a black key... Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks again!

[xvimbi]

RH: bar 2, D is repeated. My book says to play the first D with 1, the second with 2. I find it first much more complicated, and it doesn't even help for the rest. I prefer to play both notes with 1...Is the book right though?

In addition to what Ryan said, consider the following: The phrase ends with the first D, i.e. you play everything from the beginning B to the first D legato. Then, there needs to be a bit of a gap between the two D's. This is often much easier achieved by changing the finger on a repeated note. Rule: changing fingers aids in creating separation.

LH: bar 1: first note (G): the book says to start with 2, but I prefer 1. Also, it makes a smaller stretch afterwards.

You are right about that one, but there is more: one reason why one would not use the thumb on that first note is the fact that the thumb is a strong finger. When playing notes with the thumb they usually come out a bit louder than when using a different finger. You will often find editions that specify other fingers where the thumb would seem absolutely perfect. It's mostly for that reason. Rule: don't use the strong fingers for delicate notes unless you have good control.

Second, you are saying that the stretch is too big. I assume you mean bar 4, the jump from D to D. Your edition may have a slur from bar 3 through the beginning of bar 6, indicating that sequence should be played legato. However there is a specific rule in Bach (probably in Baroque music in general), that large intervals are not to be played legato. So, that octave interval needs to be played detached, i.e. there should be a gap. You play the first D and then move your hand to the following D. This is also true for similar occurrences like bars 8 (LH), 11 (RH) and 12 (LH). So, there is no need to stretch (one should in fact never stretch if not absolutely necessary, which is practically never the case).

Most important: Bars 5 to 7: I'd like to know which fingers to use for my LH so that it's easier. I play the GB "chord" using 3 and 5, but by the time I reach the end bar 7, I have to make very awkward movements.

Here is what I would do: 35-4-3-5-shift hand-1-3-2-etc.
This brings us to some strategies that will make such situations much less awkard and will propel your playing. The concept is that of "Five-finger positions". In a nutshell, one should place the hand such that the maximum number of notes can be played without moving the hand. Then move the hand to a new position. So, a reasonable fingering for pretty much any piece can be devised by simply defining when the hand position should move. Of course, this is just a very rough basic principle, but it works quite well. In this particular case, I would move the hand on the A in bar 7. The notes in bars 5 and 6 fall nicely between fingers 3 and 5, the following four notes fall nicely under the hand in its new position, and then you'll have to shift the hand anyway after the D in measure 8 (see rule above). Everything's peachy

[chadefa1]

Terrific, thanks so much! Now on for practice...

While we're at it, I might just ask... I'm learning Scarlatti's K.32 Sonata, much praised by Bernhard (and rightly so), and even I find it (quite) easy 

However, I'm not quite sure how I should play the notes marked with a "tr" on top. I would assume this stands for trill and I need to execute a quick sequence of notes. The question is... which notes?!

Also, I'm listening to a version of this sonata by Michael Lewin and I am puzzled by the following: the first part of the piece is repeated. Yet the pianist doesn't play it exactly the same way (although I don't think the score indicates it should be played differently). More precisely, in bar 5, he "binds" the notes the second time (I lack the technical term), but didn't the first time. Is it that the pianist is taking extra liberty (not that mind...)?

Many thanks to all!
Thomas

[xvimbi]

OK, at this point I need to say that it would be best if you get a teacher. As much help and advice this forum can provide, it is not nearly as efficient as a decent, personal teacher.

To quickly answer your question: "When sections are repeated and not played differently, why play them at all?"

[bernhard]

Terrific, thanks so much! Now on for practice...

While we're at it, I might just ask... I'm learning Scarlatti's K.32 Sonata, much praised by Bernhard (and rightly so), and even I find it (quite) easy 

However, I'm not quite sure how I should play the notes marked with a "tr" on top. I would assume this stands for trill and I need to execute a quick sequence of notes. The question is... which notes?!

Also, I'm listening to a version of this sonata by Michael Lewin and I am puzzled by the following: the first part of the piece is repeated. Yet the pianist doesn't play it exactly the same way (although I don't think the score indicates it should be played differently). More precisely, in bar 5, he "binds" the notes the second time (I lack the technical term), but didn't the first time. Is it that the pianist is taking extra liberty (not that mind...)?

Many thanks to all!
Thomas

We are all puzzled by Scarlatti's ornamentation. The truth is that no one truly knows.

Have a look here for a discussion of the ornamentation of K32.

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,9717.msg99292.html#msg99292
(detailed discussion of K32)


To answer xvimbi’s (rhetorical) question above . Sometimes a repeat is just a chance for the listener to hear the tune again (music is a fleeting business after all). For instance, most of Grieg’s lyric pieces fall into this category. They are so short, that the repeats are to be played exactly the same. But this is usually the exception. Most repeats should be played differently.

Best wishes
Bernhard.

[chadefa1]

Thank you everybody for the help! Xvimbi, I do have a teacher, but she likes me to figure out the fingering on my own... The problem is that I first learn the piece the "wrong" way (with my fingering), and then need to correct my fingering after she changed it, which takes a lot of time because I need to readapt...

So, I thought I'd try to make it right from the beginning this time, and will ask my teacher to give me the right fingering from the start next time.

Bernhard, the discussion on ornaments in Scarlatti's K.32 was very interesting. I guess that at my level, it would be safe to just ignore it though.

Best,
Thomas

[xvimbi]

It is good to work out the fingering yourself, as a learning experience, but don't ingrain it right away. Check it first with your teacher and have it "approved". It's a huge waste of time to learn a certain fingering first and then to have to change it later. In the best case, you'll just have to change the fingering; in the worst case, you may have already acquired a few bad habits.

Also, as you have seen with the two D's an octave apart in Bach's 115 Anh., knowledge about certain performance "rules" will often solve fingering problems. Have your teacher explain those rules when appropriate.

[quistos]

Hello fingering, give a fax # and I'll try to figure it out for you tomorrow and fax it over to you