Was Beethoven black ?

[BuyBuy]

OK, guys, I heard that several times already, so just wondering for curiosity...

I know he's from Germany, and I believe that German are not from African descent. But I heard it several times, so was Beethoven black or not ?

And by the way, do you know any black composers (not Scott Joplin, cause I'm not including ragtime, just classical music) ?

[NetherMagic]

BuyBuy personally i dun think Beethoven's black (where'd you hear that from?) and from all those paintings of him I've never seen one of him in a dark skin...  And plus you gotta know, back in the classical/romantic era, sexism wuz still around (as you know with Fanny Mendelssohn Hensel and Clara Schumann), so I think that racism is also has a high likelihood to exist during that time, and rather at an extreme point from my guess, so if there were any black musicians they wouldn't be appreciated.

iunno, jsut my 2 cents

[rachfan]

On black composers, I immediately think of Eubie Blake, a fine Ragtime composer and pianist who starting writing around 1915.  And what about William Grant Still, who wrote several orchestral works performed by major orchestras?

[debussy_lover]

Here are links to sites with information about two famous black classical musicians:

"Blind Tom" - https://www.twainquotes.com/archangels.html

Robert Nathaniel Dett - https://chevalierdesaintgeorges.homestead.com/Dett.html

[AMR]

Beethoven was, indeed, black.  His father immigrated to Germany from Zimbabwe in 1765 and shortly after married Maria Magdalena (also black) in 1767.  Three years later Ludwig was born!

[rachfan]

Well....

Beethoven's parents were Johann  (son of Ludwig von Beethoven and his wife Josepha) and Maria Magdalena Keverich, all Germans.  Thus, the composer was named after his paternal grandfather.  His parents, Johann and Maria Magdalena were married at Bonn, Germany November 12, 1767.  The composer was born either December 15 or 16, 1770.  That's the short of it.

[thomas_williams]

I can hardly believe this.  I havn't read a great deal about Beethoven, but I've read enough about him that I thought I would have known if he was black.  I'll have to find a good in-depth biography of him to read.

But I have heard of Blind Tom.  I've ocasionally heard some of his music on the radio.  I remember the first time.  It was over four years ago, and I've always wanted to know more about him.  Thanks, debussy lover, for providing that link.

[AMR]

Oh yeah, didn't you know from reading the biographies?  You should also read about the great black composer, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.

[BuyBuy]

Haha, very funny, AMR.

But realy, is that story about Zimbabwe true or just a silly joke ? Is there any way to check ?

[Black_Key]

I doubt that Beethoven was black, although it is has been argued that he was a "mulatto" or at least not entirely white. Even though he was commeonly refered to as "the black one", in all likelyhood it was probably a hyperbolic statement.

Here are sites with facts that deal with the issue:

https://www.mdcbowen.org/p2/sf/faq068.htm
This first one cites various occassions in his lifetime where he has been called black.

https://www.mdcbowen.org/p2/sf/faq068.htm
This one doesn't have much, but makes a reference to his belgian ancestry

https://www.mdcbowen.org/p2/sf/faq068.htm
This last site has a replica of his death mask, from which some have note "negoid traits"

I really don't have an opinion either way, although it's most likely that he was white. It's possible that painters wished to lighten his skin and change his features a bit in portraits, but no one can be sure. It really doesn't matter in any case.

[eddie92099]

Was Duke Ellington white?  
Ed

[Hmoll2]

Just listen to that funky variation in the Op 111, and that'll answer your question.

BuyBuy, Tiger Balm works great for pulled legs.

Seriously, Beethoven was not black. He was born in Germany, but his family history goes back to Holland. Yes, he was of Dutch descent - Ludwig van. Van indicates a Dutch background, while von indicates a German background. Oh yes, and "Beethoven" means beet root in Dutch.

[eddie92099]

Yes the opus 111 invents jazz,
Ed

[thomas_williams]

I have been reading the book Beethoven in German Politics, 1870-1989 by David B. Dennis.  It's not exactly about the composer's race but includes some discussion of it.  Various political parties in Germany have tried to prove that Beethoven would have supported their views, and some (those with extreme nationalist or racist ideas) tried to prove that his background was one thing or another.  My understanding is that his background was probably racially mixed, but the details of this are not entirely clear in the book.  But in any case, as Black Key said, it doesn't really matter.

[BuyBuy]

No, it doesn't matter to me either. But for something that does not matter, what a bunch of posts...

Something else that sense of priorities pushes us : it's called curiosity. And Beethoven being black or white really makes me curious. I guess I'll never know the answer to that, except in case of resurrection...

[glamfolk]

I remember reading somewhere that Beethoven simply invented the "van" portion of his name in order to appear more highly-classed.  Can this be true? On a side note, why is Joplin considered non-classical?  To many, he bridged the gap between classical song forms and contemporary pop styles, making him a true innovator.  If he was simply a folk artist, and therefore non-classical, What are we to make of other composers who were influenced by the folk idioms of their day (Chopin's Mazurkas, etc.)?

[BuyBuy]

Well, I probably didn't have the right to say that Joplin is not classical... It's just that like classical composers might make use of popular idioms - like rag-time - but they recreate them, and Joplin only sounds as rag-time to me, not classical recreation of rag-time.

Gershwin, for example, used lots of jazz elements, but when you listen, it sounds classical, for some reason.

But whatever, who can define classical music, after all...

[glamfolk]

Good point--I get the same "jazz-is-classical" feeling from Oscar Peterson.

[TwinkleFingers]

what difference does it make if he was black or white? he was still a great composer.  Are you trying to make blacks look greater than whites or something?  Im not racist but cmon.  You think people would paint a black person white? I guess alot of artists back then were colorblind

[BoliverAllmon]

samuel coleridge taylor wrote great music and was black.

go to www.nyaho.com and you can hear snippets from various black composers. just click on senku.

boliver

[alzado]

I have long been convinced that I hear echoes of Negro spirituals in the Beethoven piano sonatas.  Now I believe I understand why.

By the way, who the h___  is Samuel Coleridge Taylor?

Is he the guy who wrote the libretto for "The Magic Flute"

Sounds familiar.

[prometheus]

Just listen to that funky variation in the Op 111, and that'll answer your question.

BuyBuy, Tiger Balm works great for pulled legs.

Seriously, Beethoven was not black. He was born in Germany, but his family history goes back to Holland. Yes, he was of Dutch descent - Ludwig van. Van indicates a Dutch background, while von indicates a German background. Oh yes, and "Beethoven" means beet root in Dutch.

He was flemish (his grandfather). So belgium, not Holland. Though I am not sure if that was part of the dutch kingdom back then.

Isn't there a black french composer? I have seen him being called 'the black Mozart'. His father was of noble blood and his mother was a black slave. He played the violin.

[Floristan]

By the way, who the h___  is Samuel Coleridge Taylor?

From Wikipedia:

Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (August 15, 1875 - September 1, 1912), was an English composer, born in Croydon to a Sierra Leonean father and English mother.

Coleridge-Taylor studied at the Royal College of Music under Stanford, and later taught and conducted the orchestra at the Croydon Conservatory of Music. There he married one of his students, Jessie Walmisley, despite her parents' objection to his half-black parentage.

He soon earned a reputation as a composer, and his successes brought him a tour of America in 1904, which in turn increased his interest in his racial heritage. He attempted to do for African music what Brahms did for Hungarian music and Dvorak for Bohemian music. He was only 37 when he died of pneumonia.

Coleridge-Taylor's greatest success was perhaps his cantata Hiawatha's Wedding-feast. He followed this with several other pieces about Hiawatha: The Death of Minnehaha, Overture to The Song of Hiawatha and Hiawatha's Departure. He also completed an array of chamber music, anthems, and African Romances for violin, among other works.

Coleridge-Taylor was greatly admired by African-Americans; in 1901, a 200-voice African-American chorus was founded in Washington, D.C. called the Samuel Coleridge-Taylor Society.

[thalbergmad]

Actually his real name was Leroy not Ludwig.

He was also sometimes known as 50 marks.

Was he black??

I don't care.

Anyway what exactly is black or white for that matter.

Ambre Solair factor 15 perhaps.

[BoliverAllmon]

From Wikipedia:

Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (August 15, 1875 - September 1, 1912), was an English composer, born in Croydon to a Sierra Leonean father and English mother.

Coleridge-Taylor studied at the Royal College of Music under Stanford, and later taught and conducted the orchestra at the Croydon Conservatory of Music. There he married one of his students, Jessie Walmisley, despite her parents' objection to his half-black parentage.

He soon earned a reputation as a composer, and his successes brought him a tour of America in 1904, which in turn increased his interest in his racial heritage. He attempted to do for African music what Brahms did for Hungarian music and Dvorak for Bohemian music. He was only 37 when he died of pneumonia.

Coleridge-Taylor's greatest success was perhaps his cantata Hiawatha's Wedding-feast. He followed this with several other pieces about Hiawatha: The Death of Minnehaha, Overture to The Song of Hiawatha and Hiawatha's Departure. He also completed an array of chamber music, anthems, and African Romances for violin, among other works.

Coleridge-Taylor was greatly admired by African-Americans; in 1901, a 200-voice African-American chorus was founded in Washington, D.C. called the Samuel Coleridge-Taylor Society.

thank you for posting.

[presto agitato]

I remember reading somewhere that Beethoven simply invented the "van" portion of his name in order to appear more highly-classed.  Can this be true?

Untrue.

"Van" is the the dutch "version" of "Von".

[xvimbi]

Untrue.

"Van" is the the dutch "version" of "Von".

How is that "untrue"?

The "von" in German indeed usually implies a higher class, usually nobility. It's the equivalent of the English "of" (as in "Duke of Windsor"). However, Beethoven's family was originally from Brabant (Belgium). There, as well as in Holland, the "van" is a very common addition to names, and it usually does not imply nobility. BTW, "Dutch" essentially means "Deutsch" (German), thus stressing the relationship between the languages and the heritage. IMO, though, Dutch is not a language, but a throat disease... (Oops, did I just say this out loud?)

[prometheus]

Well, Dutch is an english delusion, not a Dutch *ahum* one. We just call ourselves, 'nederlanders', german people we call 'duitsers', and the english we call 'Engelsen' or 'Britten' if we are refering to all UK citizens. Funny that we don't say 'duitslanders' and 'Engelanders'. Actually, the last would mean 'scary'-landers. But, yeah 'our' language doesn't make any sense.

Care for some more 'throat disease'-lessons?

[chrysalis_]

oh man i can't understand why everyone beethoven thinks is white?? i googled his name
and i saw only black pics..

beethoven was black period!

and every white composer pianist who was somehow influenced by beethoven was just a wigger.

[da jake]

Fascinating: Chevalier de Saint George, "the Black Mozart"

https://www.chevalierdesaintgeorge.com/index_unabridged.php

I remember reading somewhere that Beethoven simply invented the "van" portion of his name in order to appear more highly-classed.

Heh, not sure about Ludwig, but Hitler's foreign minister Ribbontrop invented the "von" to precede his last name. 

[practicingnow]

Yes he was a black man.   Through affirmative action he was allowed to rise from the notorious Bonn projects, and be educated and then hired as a composer working for "the man".  He eventually became a muslim.  His 9th Symphony, the famous "Ode to Bling", was later changed to the "Ode to Joy" in order to appease the evil white masses that controlled his flow.
Forced to masquerade as a white, it was said that on his deathbed, he shook his fist at "the man", and vowed to return to this world at a later time, in a country where his talent would be fully appreciated, when he could write the kind of music that he really wanted to write, a country where weak, boring ass classical music would be squashed like an ant, and stronger, more "real" music would dominate the culture, and flow through the veins of our youth, and great black artists would be allowed to emerge as themselves - black artists like Shakespeare, Mozart, Bach, DaVinci, etc. 
Well, thank God that will never happen - such a ridiculous notion that a modern educated society would turn its back on its own great rich European tradition of art, and fearfully embrace the violent, primitive, undisciplined, hateful music that Beethoven always dreamed of writing!  Such a betrayal of ourselves would be too shameful to bear, and would only prove true what other cultures already say about us, which of course is only nonsense, RIGHT?!!
I'm glad that such a thing would NEVER happen here in this country!