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Topic: playing bach  (Read 4344 times)

Offline Tash

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playing bach
on: August 05, 2005, 07:29:32 AM
i'm having issues with what my teacher is telling me to do in my bach prelude (english suite in g minor), but i can't debate against it yet cos i'm not 100% sure of the baroque performance practices of this particular piece. like she wants me to use a bit of pedal in a few bits, and have a lot of contrasting dynamics. but can someone tell me how great the range in dynamics would have been on the keyboard bach would've been writing it for and if he actually put any pedal in his compositions? because i'm meant to be reflecting the style it was written in and if i'm putting all this stuff in there then it's not going to work very well...i don't know, i'm so clueless, just put me back in my place!
'J'aime presque autant les images que la musique' Debussy
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Offline da jake

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Re: playing bach
Reply #1 on: August 05, 2005, 07:36:36 AM
Bach probably would have played a lot like Gould - sparse pedal 'cept for Sarabandes and the like.
"The best discourse upon music is silence" - Schumann

Offline dorfmouse

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Re: playing bach
Reply #2 on: August 05, 2005, 08:48:54 AM
I'm sure far more knowledgable people will reply to your specific issue with Bach, but here are a couple of snippets I picked up while researching Scarlatti style. (Scarlatti was almost exactly contemporaneous with Bach although obviously born and worked in an entirely different milieu, however, food for thought ...?)

https://www.classicalarchives.com/info/scarlatt.txt

Although harpsichords have no sustaining
pedal, playing any note on good Italian instruments, such as
Scarlatti played on, re-excites into sound all other undamped
strings, thus sustaining a tonality for as long as one has
fingers available to hold down the relevant keys. The Spanish
royal quarters were veritable echo chambers compared to
today's concert halls. Scarlatti did not mark precise tempos,
but just noted a word or two concerning the way the piece was
to feel. These recordings are an attempt to produce on modern
wavetable cards sounds of the musical character of which
Scarlatti was a master - those of a powerful Italian
instrument in rooms typical of the Spanish court.

Italian harpsichords such as Scarlatti used had a much more
robust sound than those used as the model for most MIDI
harpsichord voices, so you may wish to experiment to find the
setting on your synthesizer that suits you best. On most
modern wavetable cards, the clavichord patch is closest in
sound to the sort of instruments Scarlatti played on, and that
is what is set in these recordings. On FM-synthesis cards, the
steel-string guitar setting with reverberation on is closer to
the sustaining character of Scarlatti's playing.


I imagine Bach's instuments also played in high, cool, echoey rooms. Also I believe he had access to many types of keyboard instruments, presumably each having different qualities and sonorities. So, judicious use of pedal?

https://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Music-baroque

There are other, more general differences between Baroque and Renaissance style. Baroque music often strives for a greater level of emotional intensity than Renaissance music, and a Baroque piece often uniformly depicts a single particular emotion (exultation, grief, piety, etc.) (see doctrine of the affections). Baroque music was more often written for virtuoso singers and instrumentalists, and is characteristically harder to perform than Renaissance music, although idiomatic instrumental writing was one of the most important innovations of the period. Baroque music employs a great deal of ornamentation, which was often improvised by the performer. Expressive performance methods such as Notes inegales were common, and were expected to be applied by performers, often with considerable latitude. Instruments came to play a greater part in Baroque music, and a cappella vocal music receded in importance.

Well! Words like virtuoso, emotional intensity, improvisational, expressive performance methods, even notes inegales ... maybe that's the style to aim for!

Bach wrote the most deeply expressive, soul- tearing work for voices and orchestra ... where did this idea come from that we have to play his keyborad work like a typewriter? (Sorry, I don't mean to imply that you would, Tash!)

Also, can anyone say more about the use of notes inegales (notes of unequal length) in Baroque performance? "Notes with equal written time values are performed with unequal durations, usually as alternating long and short." Do any players actually do this nowadays in improvising on Baroque music? Or would critics then say they played it wrong? ;D
"I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams."
W.B. Yeats

Offline xvimbi

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Re: playing bach
Reply #3 on: August 05, 2005, 12:17:18 PM
If you want to retaliate, tell your teacher you won't play the piece until the piano is tuned in the correct temperament of the time.

More seriously: there are myriad ways to play Bach. It's all been tried and discussed over the last three hundred years. I find it silly to argue that one way is necessarily "better" or "more correct" than another. If your teacher is open-minded and a true musician, she will not really care which way you want to play, as long as your way does not violate obvious rules, is consistent, compelling and convincing, and as long as you display "good taste".

I personally like contrasting dynamics in Bach, particularly in repeated sections or multi-voice sections. This does not mean one should play Bach in a romantic way, but the contrasts should be perceptible. Pedal is perfectly acceptable (IMHO). If you really want to impress your teacher, start changing some notes or move a melody line up or down an octave.

Offline hazypurple21

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Re: playing bach
Reply #4 on: August 05, 2005, 12:33:01 PM
I guess we can't be sure about how Bach would play his own music, but I doubt he would play it like Gould. An excellent point was made that Bach wrote some of the most emotionally intense vocal and orchestral music ever, so why wouldn't he want his keyboard music played with emotion?
In my opinion, dynamics can definitely be used in Bach to make it more interesting. Maybe this wasn't something Bach's keyboard was capable of, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have liked it. We are pianists, we play pianos, and I think we are to use all aspects of this instrument to our benefits. We are able to use a range of dynamics, and  we have a pedal to sustain. Why not use these capabilities to our advantage if it fits the music? However, be careful with the pedal. Anything pre-romantic, I think, shouldn't be all too blurred. I tend to use it more sparringly in fugues than in preludes, so as to make the voices clear.
Best wishes,
Steve
"There is one god-Bach-and Mendelssohn is his prophet."

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: playing bach
Reply #5 on: August 05, 2005, 04:02:10 PM
This does not mean one should play Bach in a romantic way, but the contrasts should be perceptible.

Out of curiosity, what is meant by "romantic"?  I have asked my teachers about the performance of Bach, before scholarship into the issue, and they have said that Bach was performed "romantically", including the doubling of notes not originally written, extreme rubato beyond what is tasteful musically, etc.  Is this what you mean?

Offline xvimbi

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Re: playing bach
Reply #6 on: August 05, 2005, 05:09:18 PM
Out of curiosity, what is meant by "romantic"?  I have asked my teachers about the performance of Bach, before scholarship into the issue, and they have said that Bach was performed "romantically", including the doubling of notes not originally written, extreme rubato beyond what is tasteful musically, etc.  Is this what you mean?

Pretty much.

Offline jerry xie

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Re: playing bach
Reply #7 on: August 05, 2005, 06:14:43 PM
hi guys!!!

"Bach probably would have played a lot like Gould  ..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i dont really think so---gould was actually playing bach in his own way.of course,he played bach in the right sound(light,clear),and he played pretty much like bach,but bach wouldn't play any like gould.

listen to rosalyn tureck----------that's really BACH!!!

jerry
Help me , Bach !!!

Offline Barbosa-piano

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Re: playing bach
Reply #8 on: August 05, 2005, 06:30:56 PM
I imagine Bach's instuments also played in high, cool, echoey rooms. Also I believe he had access to many types of keyboard instruments, presumably each having different qualities and sonorities.

He had access to the German Harpsichords, their were the loudest ones, and the strongest ones- solidly built. But I read somewhere that he didn't like the fact that he had to give his concerts on a harpsichord. I believe his favorite instrument was the clavichord. I wonder what his invention sounded like- Apparently, he modified a harpsichord on paper to be built under his own specifications. A kind of harpsichord-lute.
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Offline Tash

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Re: playing bach
Reply #9 on: August 06, 2005, 02:48:33 AM
ok thanks people, i do like to use contrasting dynamics, but i don't see the point in using the pedal- my teacher wants me to use it just at the trills and large chords to 'highlight' them- but in terms of the trills, they're meant to be clear and crisp right? or at least that's what i just read in a book by schulenberg...
it's annoying- i seemed to develop some idea about playing baroque music completely unemotionally, probably from being mis-taught at school (i'm doing a course on baroque music at uni and it's amazing how my conception of it has been completely wrong!), so i have to get out of that...
'J'aime presque autant les images que la musique' Debussy

Offline whynot

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Re: playing bach
Reply #10 on: August 06, 2005, 04:20:44 PM
It's such a testament to Bach's quality of writing that people having been fighting about it for hundreds of years.  I love that.  Because it means that people realize how special it is, that maybe it just matters more than other music.  One way to let yourself off the hook a little bit, if the pressure's getting too hot-- "play it like this," "no, play it like that"-- is to say that there aren't really rules, more like tendencies.  I mean, there are rules, actually, but there are many provisions for breaking them, so eventually you end up with something closer to tendencies.  I think you can defend the contrasting dynamics by pointing to vocal and orchestral works of Bach, in which different voices and instruments played very different and interesting lines at the same time-- how can we hear all of it?  Because the voices making different lines sound different from one another.  A different timbre, a diifferent natural volume, whatever.  Not always, but often (it's a tendency!). 
Also, in terms of dynamics, even when the music was just played on one instrument, that instrument was often a two-manual harpsichord or organ with moving lines played on different keyboards at the same time so as to be more distinct from one another.  So it seems like making one hand at the piano sound different from the other at times is defensible.  And it was during Bach's lifetime that the Swell box was invented (and quickly became popular) for the organ, allowing for gradual dynamic changes instead of just the abrupt change of registers that was possible before.  So it seems like the interest in gradations was a big thing happening in music (everywhere) at this time, which I think gives us some freedom with this in Bach.

You mentioned pedaling, which certainly has to be talked about when playing anything on piano.  I guess using it or not depends on what you want it to do.  The reason I pedal Bach is to "open up" the strings, warm the sound of the instrument more.  And, maybe? once in a great while to connect something I can't reach, but usually I think it sounds better to just articulate around problems like that.  I guess I leave it as an option for myself, but I hardly ever use it for that.  Baroque phrases are short, sometimes REALLY short, and if the pedal is used to make a long phrase, or to blend harmonies, whatever... things we might like to do in later music, it takes away one of the main characteristics of the whole era.  Conversely, in my opinion, to not pedal at all on a modern piano takes away one of the main characteristics of the instruments, namely, the quality of sound when all the strings are vibrating at least most of the time.  So I do pedal, but I don't know if you want to do what I do, because it's a hassle!  I pedal every moving note.  Every single one!  Unless it's such a fast scale run that it's basically a glissando, but sixteenth notes etc, yes, I lift for a fresh pedal on each one.  So the piano sounds "open," but each note is distinct, not blended.

I think where people get into trouble, style-wise, is in trying to be expressive without using the expressive devices of the time.  In other words, big swells and more gooshy (how technical) pedal etc are very expressive in much later music, but those were not the vocabulary for showing emotion in earlier music.  Many people know this, and out of respect for the music, they determine not to add anything they feel would be inappropriate, but they don't know what else to do with it, so they don't do anything!  Understandable, but here are some little easy things that can make it quite stylish right away:

* look for short phrases and slur them, making a little "landing"- not quite an accent- right before the end and tapering the last note of it so it's shorter AND softer

* look for little sigh figures:  two notes with the second just a bit lower, that you can land on and then taper the same way

* look for places where a listener unfamiliar with the piece would lose the thread of it, and bring out something to help them find their way

* look at the bass line as if you were a cellist-- just a tendency! not always the case, but very often you can make something beautiful happen this way.  Would a cellist slur eighth notes that are very far apart?  Nowaways, they certainly can (Brahms), but Baroque bows were shorter, so they were much more likely to lift/move the bow between large intervals.   If you do this, you bring out a very interesting character right away.  If a cellist had sigh figures close together, then big intervals, he would probably slur the sighs, making charming little groups of two, then a staccato or lift for the jumping note... you get the idea.

* in 3/4 pieces, where you feel a natural strong accent on the downbeats, look for any opportunity NOT to accent the downbeat:  places (esp. at candences) where there's a chord or dissonance on beat two, and bring out the hemiola.

I think you can go a lot of different ways in Baroque pieces as long as you reflect what's really happening in the music:  the motives, the contrasts etc.  It probably isn't possible to play it in such a way that no one would ever get upset, though, because people care about the music so much, and have such strong and differing opinions!  So I think we have to just know the tendencies and be expressive in those ways, then follow our own lights.     

Good luck!   
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