Most difficult solo piece IN COMMON REPERTOIRE

[llamaman]

I have no idea how hard any of those pieces are, and it will take me many years to even consider playing them

Sure I have listened to them, but you cant tell by ear.

[JCarey]

1. What is difficult for one pianist will be less so for another.
2. It remains unclear precisely what is intended to be meant by "difficult" in this context
3. It is also unclear where a universally agreed line could be drawn between "common" and "uncommon" repertoire? - yes, the Hammerklavier, etc. could be called "common" repertoire and some of Sorabji's works "uncommon" repertoire (for the time being, at least), but that fact hardly helps to define all piano music as fitting into either one or the other category...

A bit of a dumb thread, it seems...

Thank you, Alistair! I, too, find these threads to be pointless.

You will notice that threads about difficulty make up about 75% of the Repertoire forum.

[ahinton]

Thank you, Alistair! I, too, find these threads to be pointless.

You will notice that threads about difficulty make up about 75% of the Repertoire forum.

What a very sad observation to have to make! - and for almost as many reasons as there are such threads, it would seem...

Best,

Alistair

[m]

So many modern pianists could play most of those pieces with digital precision, but so few really understand what's going on there in the music.

So many modern pianists could play Hammerklavier's Finale "perfectly", but so few are able to reveil emotional context of the slow movement.

So many modern pianists could play "breathtaking" Chopin etudes, making new time marks, and so few could play a "simple" Nocturne or Scarlatti Sonata beautifully.

Heh, tell me about difficulty...

[maxy]

so let's specify: mechanical difficulties

It is true that some people can unleash a phenomenal Rach 3, and murder totally a Chopin op 9#2... 

[stevie]

What a very sad observation to have to make! - and for almost as many reasons as there are such threads, it would seem...

Best,

Alistair

i dont think theyre such a bad thing, after all , virtually the only reason so many have been interested in the OC is its insane difficulty and length.

but yes, it reveals something about the piano community in general, that people want to impress others by playing difficult works, but thats nothing new.

john carey is wrong, id say only 25% of repertoire threads are about difficulty

[lisztwasgod]

i would like to thank alistair hinton (though i know thee not) for being of the same opinion as me and expressing the same concern i did (although i was a touch more irate than he)...i dont think these kinds of threads are productive because iyt gives the wrong impression to all pianists or any observers. I dont want to have this forum deigned to the ranks of a petty competitive thread-posting, nor do i want to project that piano works must be hard to play to be worthwhile, or vice versa. Imagine the new pianist looking for advice and mentorship in this forum, and being instantly injected with false hopes and the wrong impression that for his playing to be worth a damn he has to play a prokoffiev sonata and know the rach 3 or islamey! I think these threads are more of a pride builder for people who can say "oh yeah, i can play that" than intended as a true appreciation of the difficulty and complexity of some of the most brilliant instrumental works ever crafted. But who is to say that a mozart concerto or a bach partita is not as momentous a work as a liszt polonaise or a rach prelude? ANd i think difficulty should be the LAST thing considered when pondering the overall value of a piece in the realm of musical literature

[fred smalls]

god gaspard de la nuit is overrated

the next person who sais its the hardest piece i will punch in the mouth

then in the throat

peace
fredsmalls

[ahinton]

virtually the only reason so many have been interested in the OC is its insane difficulty and length.

So many who? Where? Yes, if people perpetuate threads on fora such as this one which continue to throw up the subject of extreme "difficulty", certain contributors may well make references to OC; however, the world - even that of OC appreciators - is not entirely populated by forum members. Ask anyone that really knows the work - in particular, ask Jonathan Powell, who surely knows it inside out and back to front better than any other person alive - and you will invariably find that the length and difficulties to be encountered in OC, far from being "insane", are in fact the least interesting aspects of the piece. Any idiot with a surface understanding of basic piano techniques and a modicum of musical literacy could compile litanies of "difficulty" for the piano - and any such person with endless patience could spin them out into seceral hours per piece -  but that would not of itself confer any real musical interest upon the results.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

god gaspard de la nuit is overrated

the next person who sais its the hardest piece i will punch in the mouth

then in the throat

peace

1. Funny kind of "peace", that...
2. Mind you don't damage your fingers in the process...

Best,

Alistair

[mlsmithz]

Regarding the OC, speaking for myself at least I must admit that my attention was first drawn to the piece by its reputation as both extremely long and extremely difficult, and I'm sure this is true of a lot of listeners.  Still, according to an old edition of the Guinness Book, the longest piece ever performed at time of going to press consisted simply of every possible permutation of the notes in a one-octave ascending C major scale (it took many hours and multiple performers to reach "the best bit - the end"), which is surely an exercise in excruciating tedium for both performer(s) and listener (this, I suppose, would be an example of the sort of mindlessness that could be spun into a piece of absurd length which Mr. Hinton describes above - and given that each permutation is supposed to be different, one slip of a finger and you've screwed up the point of the piece, insofar as there is a point).  And that the OC has captured more imaginations than mindless permutations of the C major scale would seem to bear witness to the fact that there is more to the piece than just its length and difficulty.  Perhaps, though, the length and difficulty were Sorabji's way of discouraging the casual listener?  I know he felt his pieces should only be performed by the very best, and I wouldn't be surprised if he also intended for them only to be heard by people who could truly appreciate them, irrespective of their length and difficulty.

But while there is clearly more to the OC than its length and difficulty which keeps people listening to it, it may perhaps be those sides of its reputation which draw some people to the piece - and to other works by Sorabji - in the first place.  The length and difficulty draw them in, the music itself keeps them there (sometimes).  A similar argument could perhaps be made for such composers as Alkan, Busoni, Godowsky, Reger.... their music has a reputation for being difficult for performers (and sometimes for listeners) that has kept them out of the spotlight, but those who have heard their works are very fond of them. (I must admit that's what sparked my interest in Alkan, but not Godowsky or Reger.  And I'm not really a fan of Busoni.)

My own interest in the OC, though, remains low, as I've no idea how any of it sounds since neither Madge nor Ogdon's recordings have sound clips available.  Perhaps when Dr. Powell feels ready to put the piece on disc and clips are made available for would-be listeners I'll re-evaluate my interest in it, but everything I've heard about the piece has made me think I'd get lost in its labyrinthine counterpoint very quickly. (And were Sorabji alive to be aware of this, he'd probably consider my reluctance a sign that I'm not worthy to hear it anyway. )

[ahinton]

Regarding the OC, speaking for myself at least I must admit that my attention was first drawn to the piece by its reputation as both extremely long and extremely difficult, and I'm sure this is true of a lot of listeners.  Still, according to an old edition of the Guinness Book, the longest piece ever performed at time of going to press consisted simply of every possible permutation of the notes in a one-octave ascending C major scale (it took many hours and multiple performers to reach "the best bit - the end"), which is surely an exercise in excruciating tedium for both performer(s) and listener (this, I suppose, would be an example of the sort of mindlessness that could be spun into a piece of absurd length which Mr. Hinton describes above - and given that each permutation is supposed to be different, one slip of a finger and you've screwed up the point of the piece, insofar as there is a point).  And that the OC has captured more imaginations than mindless permutations of the C major scale would seem to bear witness to the fact that there is more to the piece than just its length and difficulty.  Perhaps, though, the length and difficulty were Sorabji's way of discouraging the casual listener?  I know he felt his pieces should only be performed by the very best, and I wouldn't be surprised if he also intended for them only to be heard by people who could truly appreciate them, irrespective of their length and difficulty.

But while there is clearly more to the OC than its length and difficulty which keeps people listening to it, it may perhaps be those sides of its reputation which draw some people to the piece - and to other works by Sorabji - in the first place.  The length and difficulty draw them in, the music itself keeps them there (sometimes).  A similar argument could perhaps be made for such composers as Alkan, Busoni, Godowsky, Reger.... their music has a reputation for being difficult for performers (and sometimes for listeners) that has kept them out of the spotlight, but those who have heard their works are very fond of them. (I must admit that's what sparked my interest in Alkan, but not Godowsky or Reger.  And I'm not really a fan of Busoni.)

My own interest in the OC, though, remains low, as I've no idea how any of it sounds since neither Madge nor Ogdon's recordings have sound clips available.  Perhaps when Dr. Powell feels ready to put the piece on disc and clips are made available for would-be listeners I'll re-evaluate my interest in it, but everything I've heard about the piece has made me think I'd get lost in its labyrinthine counterpoint very quickly. (And were Sorabji alive to be aware of this, he'd probably consider my reluctance a sign that I'm not worthy to hear it anyway. )

There are without doubt some well balanced points here - and OC is most certainly not - nor can it reasonably be expected to be - everyone's glass of nectar - but it should be remembered that, whilst it is one of some 16 very large scale Sorabji compositions for piano solo, around three quarters of Sorabji;s piano works are of the kinds of size that mean they will fit comfortably into conventional length concert programmes. Yes, some people have been drawn to find out more about OC because of its length and difficulty but those who go on to be moved by what they find will have rapidly outgrown the factors that raised its spectre for them in the first place. I hope that you and I and the rest of us will not have to wait too long for Jonathn Powell's recording; in the meantime, I confess that I have had the advantage not only of having known the work since I discovered it for myself in 1969 but having been present at John Ogdon's recording of it and at one private and seven public performances of it in its entirety.

Best,

Alistair

[stevie]

ive read that you helped him prepare for recording it, is this correct?

did he actually memorise some or all of it, or sight-read it all?

just curious how he worked, i know he was a prodigous musical genius.

[mlsmithz]

There are without doubt some well balanced points here - and OC is most certainly not - nor can it reasonably be expected to be - everyone's glass of nectar - but it should be remembered that, whilst it is one of some 16 very large scale Sorabji compositions for piano solo, around three quarters of Sorabji;s piano works are of the kinds of size that mean they will fit comfortably into conventional length concert programmes.

I assumed he wrote some works on a smaller scale, although I must admit I'm not familiar with any of them; of course, he is not exactly well-represented either by performances or recordings, and while I know this is in part because he did not allow public performances or recordings of his work until thirty-odd years ago, I'm guessing even his smaller scale works are, for the most part, technically difficult and/or melodically and harmonically challenging to the casual listener.  Still, I know there are recordings available of rather smaller scale works performed by such artists as Amato, Hamelin, Powell, and Solomon.... perhaps those are better places to begin trying to appreciate Sorabji than diving straight into the OC! (Any recommendations, Mr. Hinton?)

Yes, some people have been drawn to find out more about OC because of its length and difficulty but those who go on to be moved by what they find will have rapidly outgrown the factors that raised its spectre for them in the first place.

I'd imagine so.  Again, speaking from my own experience, when I was ten years old and first read the entry on Mahler's Symphony No.3 in the Guinness Book as the longest "classical" symphony, I borrowed a recording from a local library, and while that particular symphony has never grown on me, all four even-numbered Mahler symphonies have, and I honestly don't notice their length anymore.  I picked up a recording of Havergal Brian's 'Gothic' symphony a few years ago for similar reasons, but it's not its length that keeps me listening to it.  Same for the difficulty of the Alkan Minor Key Etudes, or the Chopin-Godowsky Etudes. (Surely no-one only listens to a piece repeatedly because of its reputation for length and/or difficulty, after all! )

I hope that you and I and the rest of us will not have to wait too long for Jonathn Powell's recording; in the meantime, I confess that I have had the advantage not only of having known the work since I discovered it for myself in 1969 but having been present at John Ogdon's recording of it and at one private and seven public performances of it in its entirety.

Having known the work and the man who wrote it, if I'm not mistaken. (Was he the performer in the private performance you mention?  Just curious.) I suspect only Dr. Powell himself has a greater advantage in knowing how his recording will turn out.  As you say, hopefully the day isn't far off when the rest of us can hear it for ourselves!

[ahinton]

ive read that you helped him prepare for recording it, is this correct?

did he actually memorise some or all of it, or sight-read it all?

just curious how he worked, i know he was a prodigous musical genius.

Not quite; I acted as executive producer at the recording itself but I did not work with him on OC before its recording got under way. John did not play it from memory; he used a well marked score that he had worked on for years.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I assumed he wrote some works on a smaller scale, although I must admit I'm not familiar with any of them; of course, he is not exactly well-represented either by performances or recordings, and while I know this is in part because he did not allow public performances or recordings of his work until thirty-odd years ago, I'm guessing even his smaller scale works are, for the most part, technically difficult and/or melodically and harmonically challenging to the casual listener.  Still, I know there are recordings available of rather smaller scale works performed by such artists as Amato, Hamelin, Powell, and Solomon.... perhaps those are better places to begin trying to appreciate Sorabji than diving straight into the OC! (Any recommendations, Mr. Hinton?)

Good point! My initial recommendations would include Donna Amato's survey of shorter works (AIR-CD-9025) and Fantaisie Espagnole (AIR-CD-9022), Charles Hopkins's Gulistan (AIR-CD-9036), Yonty Solomon's Le Jardin Parfumé (AIR-CD-9037), Marc-André Hamelin's First Sonata (AIR-CD-9050) and everything so far recorded by Jonathan Powell except the Fourth Sonata (obviously I'd "recommend" that, too - and very strongly - but I've been asked about shorter works) - Mr Powell's CDs are AIR-CD-9067/9068/9083/9084.

I picked up a recording of Havergal Brian's 'Gothic' symphony a few years ago for similar reasons, but it's not its length that keeps me listening to it.  Same for the difficulty of the Alkan Minor Key Etudes, or the Chopin-Godowsky Etudes. (Surely no-one only listens to a piece repeatedly because of its reputation for length and/or difficulty, after all! )

One would indeed hope not! I am fully in agreement with you here.

the performer in the private performance you mention?[

The private performances I know of were by John Ogdon (1959) and Jonathan Powell (2003).

I suspect only Dr. Powell himself has a greater advantage in knowing how his recording will turn out.  As you say, hopefully the day isn't far off when the rest of us can hear it for ourselves!

Indeed so!

Best,

Alistair