Arguing with my teacher...

[stormx]

Hi !! 

I have a real problem with my teacher, and i want your opinion. 
I am an adult beginner (37), taking lessons (from scratch) with this teacher for 9 months. I am an avid reader of this forum, by the way.

In my last class, we just argue for the whole hour  . I am currently learning Chopin's waltz in A minor, Op. Posth (i suggested it to him, who had no idea about this waltz).

I will detail the points of our argument:

1) Bar 21 (or 22 if you count the first).
This is the most difficult bar of the piece, and I have been following the excellent advices given by Bernhard to learn it. RH plays arpeggios over 3 octaves (E-G#-B). Bernhard specially prevents from trying to play them with the classic thumb under method, because the desired speed can never be attained this way. My teacher, who has no idea about the so called thumb-over method, says i should play it thumb under, in order to avoid the little gap between B and the next E.

2) Ornaments.
He says “ornaments notes have no value”.
This is true, in my understanding, in the sense that when adding the values of the notes of the bar, ornaments must not be counted. But my point is that, when you actually play them, they DO HAVE A VALUE. And that value, or is taken from the previous note, or from the current note (if you play the ornament on the beat).
If you have a mordent over an 1/8 note, for instance, the effective realization can be something like: 1/32 + 1/32 +1/16.
He kept repeating “ornaments notes have no value”.
I observed that if you put a metronome, and you want to be exact, some note has to be shorter, because the ornaments do take some time. Same answer “ornaments notes have no value”. The principal note just retains his whole value, he said, and the ornaments just fit there (¿?). “1 + x = 1 implies x = 0” i said (i am a beginner at piano, but good at maths, after all). His answer, as you might predict, was “ornaments notes have no value”.

3) Bar 35 (or 36).
RH plays E-F#-E, the first 2 notes being an ornament (Bernhard shows it as E(1/32)-F#(1/32)-E(1/16). Of course, this does not make sense to my teacher, because, well you know…). LH plays a lower E. Still according to what Bernhard posted, the bass E is played at the same time as the first ornament RH E.
“You are making a mistake”, he said me. LH E must  be played at the same time of real RH note, that is the second E.
I replied that probably both ways were acceptable. He just replied that the way i was playing was just a mistake.
Both ornaments notes, according to him, MUST be played before LH E. I asked him if then the last LH chord of the previous mesure should be still pressed when playing both ornaments notes, and he said NO. So, in his opinion, both ornament notes should be played alone.

Of course, i never mentioned to him that my opinions were not mine indeed,  but were opinions from very experienced teachers (from this forum). So, his attitude was like “how do you dare to argue with me, being a simple beginner”.

On a last note, because he was unaware of this waltz, I lend him a CD with all Chopin's waltzes and Impromptus played by Cziffra.

2 comments:

-He had no idea about who Cziffra was.

-He said he heard many mistakes in the recording. I replied that he surely did not like the interpretation (after all, many people don’t like Cziffra’s Chopin), but they were not mistakes. He replied that, in his opinion, he made mistakes. I really considered it insulting, referring to one of the best pianists of the century.

So, i need your opinion !!!

Is my teacher right, and I am completely wrong?
If not, i am really considering changing my teacher.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

[xvimbi]

Hi !! 

I have a real problem with my teacher, and i want your opinion. 
I am an adult beginner (37), taking lessons (from scratch) with this teacher for 9 months. I am an avid reader of this forum, by the way.

In my last class, we just argue for the whole hour  . I am currently learning Chopin's waltz in A minor, Op. Posth (i suggested it to him, who had no idea about this waltz).

Here is my overall take on this: enjoy your lessons and try to get the most out of your teacher. No teacher is perfect, and your teacher is certainly not an exception, but I am sure he has a lot to offer. Be aware of the discrepancies, but ultimately follow what your teacher is telling you; not because of obedience, but because, often, there are indeed several valid ways of playing a piece.

Also, no teacher knows, let alone has taught, all the pieces in the main stream repertoire. This forum spoils people, because there is always someone who knows the answer to a question, but there is no SINGLE person who would know the answers to all questions (except Bernhard, perhaps, but he is truly an exception).

I will detail the points of our argument:

1) Bar 21 (or 22 if you count the first).
This is the most difficult bar of the piece, and I have been following the excellent advices given by Bernhard to learn it. RH plays arpeggios over 3 octaves (E-G#-B). Bernhard specially prevents from trying to play them with the classic thumb under method, because the desired speed can never be attained this way. My teacher, who has no idea about the so called thumb-over method, says i should play it thumb under, in order to avoid the little gap between B and the next E.

It is not uncommon that teachers don't "know" the thumb-over technique. The easiest is to demonstrate that you can play the piece without a gap using the thumb-over technique. If you can't, then I am afraid, he is right. Then you must use a different technique, or perfect your thumb-over.

2) Ornaments.
He says “ornaments notes have no value”.
This is true, in my understanding, in the sense that when adding the values of the notes of the bar, ornaments must not be counted. But my point is that, when you actually play them, they DO HAVE A VALUE. And that value, or is taken from the previous note, or from the current note (if you play the ornament on the beat).
If you have a mordent over an 1/8 note, for instance, the effective realization can be something like: 1/32 + 1/32 +1/16.
He kept repeating “ornaments notes have no value”.
I observed that if you put a metronome, and you want to be exact, some note has to be shorter, because the ornaments do take some time. Same answer “ornaments notes have no value”. The principal note just retains his whole value, he said, and the ornaments just fit there (¿?). “1 + x = 1 implies x = 0” i said (i am a beginner at piano, but good at maths, after all). His answer, as you might predict, was “ornaments notes have no value”.

3) Bar 35 (or 36).
RH plays E-F#-E, the first 2 notes being an ornament (Bernhard shows it as E(1/32)-F#(1/32)-E(1/16). Of course, this does not make sense to my teacher, because, well you know…). LH plays a lower E. Still according to what Bernhard posted, the bass E is played at the same time as the first ornament RH E.
“You are making a mistake”, he said me. LH E must  be played at the same time of real RH note, that is the second E.
I replied that probably both ways were acceptable. He just replied that the way i was playing was just a mistake.
Both ornaments notes, according to him, MUST be played before LH E. I asked him if then the last LH chord of the previous mesure should be still pressed when playing both ornaments notes, and he said NO. So, in his opinion, both ornament notes should be played alone.

Wars could have been fought over whether appogiaturas in Chopin are on the beat or before the beat, and there is still much research. Most appogiaturas should be played on the beat, according to Willard Pallmer, but he is IMO not the greatest expert in anything. Mikuli has opinions about Chopin's ornamentation that are different from what other notable experts think, and he was a pupil of Chopin's. I do agree however that in this case, the appogiaturas should be played on the beat, but you will find both versions in recordings.

Of course, i never mentioned to him that my opinions were not mine indeed,  but were opinions from very experienced teachers (from this forum). So, his attitude was like “how do you dare to argue with me, being a simple beginner”.

On a last note, because he was unaware of this waltz, I lend him a CD with all Chopin's waltzes and Impromptus played by Cziffra.

2 comments:

-He had no idea about who Cziffra was.

-He said he heard many mistakes in the recording. I replied that he surely did not like the interpretation (after all, many people don’t like Cziffra’s Chopin), but they were not mistakes. He replied that, in his opinion, he made mistakes. I really considered it insulting, referring to one of the best pianists of the century.

This is again not uncommon. Because someone teaches piano does not mean they are audiophiles who listen to every recording on the market by every pianist who ever lived. Don't be too harsh.

Regarding mistakes: even the best of the century make them, and even in recordings, i.e. they are conscious "mistakes". They have decided to play like this, and some listeners consider them mistakes, others not. I have heard Alicia De Larocha play appogiaturas in Mozart before the beat, where Brendel and Uchida play on the beat. Keep an open mind, don't be afraid to disagree with even the best performers. But I must also say that your teacher should have a more open mind and not call everything a "mistake" that differs from what he has been taught.

Perhaps you could try the following approach: when there is discussion about, for example, how to play ornaments, appear interested and ask you teacher to provide you with some material, so that you can read more about it. Let him give you the material, rather than you go digging around the Internet on your own. This will force your teacher to ratioanlize his arguments. Of course, you then tell him that you are trying to find some more information (which you already have). Then you two sit down and discuss the issue and decide on a way to play. So, instead of an upfront confrontation, you construct an environment where both of you can learn, ideally without destroying the teacher-student relationship.

If at the end, your preferred way differs from your teachers's way, and there really is no clear and authoritative resolution to the problem, tell him that you want to play it your way, being fully aware that there are other options, because you like it better. Any reasonable person should agree to such deals. If your techer doesn't, then it might be time for change.

Hope that helps.

[stormx]

Thanks Xvimbi for your extensive reply.
So, "ON" or "BEFORE" the beat seems to be a subject of personal preference.

Just an extra doubt:

If the ornament is played BEFORE the beat, as my teacher beleives it should, then both ornament notes take their time from the last note of the previous bar, making it slighty shorter, right?
And what about the other hand at the same time?

Lets take bar 35, for instance:
Let suppose we choose the BEFORE the beat approach.
While both ornament notes (E-F#) are played, should LH chord (E-A-C) be released or maintained?

Sorry for asking so basic questions, but my teacher is very unclear on this subject...

[xvimbi]

Thanks Xvimbi for your extensive reply.
So, "ON" or "BEFORE" the beat seems to be a subject of personal preference.

Sometimes, but definitely not always. When it comes to appoggiaturas, there sometimes is ambiguity, but often enough, there are indeed strict ways to play them. There is, however, always confusion

Just an extra doubt:

If the ornament is played BEFORE the beat, as my teacher beleives it should, then both ornament notes take their time from the last note of the previous bar, making it slighty shorter, right?

Depends. If the appoggiatura is at the beginning of a measure, starting a new phrase, it would not take the time from the preceding note; it would probably just get extra time. Let your ear decide. In fact,  let your teacher play it how he thinks it should be played and then decide (I still think the appoggiaturas should be played on the beat, though)

And what about the other hand at the same time?

Lets take bar 35, for instance:
Let suppose we choose the BEFORE the beat approach.
While both ornament notes (E-F#) are played, should LH chord (E-A-C) be released or maintained?

Sorry for asking so basic questions, but my teacher is very unclear on this subject...

In Chopin, one often plays the right hand rather liberally, using rubato and the like, while the left hand keeps a steady rhythm. Chopin himself advocated such playing.

In general, I guess, whether a chord should sound or not in such circumstances, is best decided by the ear. If there are unwanted dissonances, then release the chord before you play the appogiatura.

[asyncopated]

Just to get into this ornamental fray. 

Some believe you should bend time around your ornaments .  As xvimbi pointed out, tempo rubato is crucial to keep the melodic line, especially for chopin (as if singing or speaking).  Chopin loved bel canto and it really shows in his works.

Whatever the case, decide on something you like (on or off) the beat and stick to it.  Last lesson, my teacher pointed out that I was smudging ornaments (neither on nor off the beat) -- that's where it really sounds bad!

al.

[ako]

Xvimbi and asyncopated provided very good and relevant answers to the ornamentations used in Chopin. I agree that CHopin ornaments are usually played on the beat. But the more important point is does it sound good? One can play the ornaments as 32nds exactly as written but it might not sound good if they're that short. As xvimbi said, it is relative to the phrasing.

Just a thought, have you thought of looking for another teacher if this type of arguments continue? I think having someone with a Bernhard -type of experience/expertise will be a good match with you. "Good" teachers are hard to find though.

[stormx]

Thanks for your replies 

My teacher seems to be very close minded. He usually think that his way is the only correct, and deviations from it are just mistakes. Moreover, even being middle aged, he does not seem to know there something there called Internet with tons of valuable (and not so valuable) information
So, he just stick to what he has been taught, and does not perform any research to look for other possibilities.

On the other hand, he is really bad when trying to "explain things", even when he is completely right. He just know them intuitively, but is often unable to build a logical fundamentation. Because i am a very rational person (i am a mathematician), we usually have arguments.

For instance, lets consider the value of an ornament note. I expect from a teacher something like:

There exist 3 basic possibilities:
1) The ornament note steal its value from the current note.
2) The ornament note steal its from the previous note.
3) Both previous and current note retain their value, and the ornament note is played in an "added tempo".

In 1), the ornament is played on the beat
In both 2) and 3), it is played before the beat

On every piece, the written score, the composer and personal taste should be taken into account to decide how the ornament has to be played.



Instead of that, what i get is simply "they have no time value, they just fit there".


Am i asking too much? 

[asyncopated]

Hi stormx

You seem to be very frustrated with your teacher.  Give it a bit of time, but if you continue to feel this way, may I suggest changing your teacher.  I don't think it helps with the learning process. 

Personally I have a great teacher.  She encourages me to explore musicality and technique on my own, and makes many fantastic suggestions -- I think I get most of the big ideas that are crucial for development from her and the smaller things I figure out on my own, or use a forum like this.  It's the way I like to work and she seems comfortable working this way.  She is extremely open minded about different suggestions and ideas and I think that if it does come to blows (i don't think it ever will), we can agree to disagree.

However, there are times I feel frustrated.  Especially with repetoir.  I'm usually too ambitious and want to try something big and almost impossible for me, and she hangs on to the reigns.  Sometimes I do wonder if she is holding me back, that if I just go a head to try to learn something rediculously difficult, it will push me to the next level.   But after sitting on it, I know she is right.  It is much more sensible to build technique and a good foundation in steps than to jump off the deep end.  As with yourself (you are learning the Am waltz) , I have progressed to a level where I can learn some of the technically simpler pieces that still has immense musical value.


al.

P.s. (3)  can be played on or before the beat and remember that  ornaments are used to stress a particular note (not just to look pretty).  Xvimbi and ako give invaluable comments.   

 

[leahcim]

Moreover, even being middle aged, he does not seem to know there something there called Internet with tons of valuable (and not so valuable) information

But earlier you said you didn't tell him about that? This site is good but the books that it recommends pre-date it, as does the instrument and AIUI the "new" methods to some extent?

The internet in general doesn't seem to be overflowing with good information from the pov of learning to play - outside of this site that is. I've generally found adverts to sell midi files dressed up as lessons and a few articles here and there - nothing that's not here.

I think you should have told him - although I imagine the number of doctors faced with self-diagnosed folks from "reading about it on the internet" is legion so his eyes might still glaze over.

He should answer those questions for you [especially like "so this thumb over thing, what about legato?"] - If he can't [or doesn't accept what you have if he sees the original descriptions] you'll need to find another teacher - but I wouldn't sit there arguing about it.

[stormx]

But earlier you said you didn't tell him about that? This site is good but the books that it recommends pre-date it, as does the instrument and AIUI the "new" methods to some extent?

The internet in general doesn't seem to be overflowing with good information from the pov of learning to play - outside of this site that is. I've generally found adverts to sell midi files dressed up as lessons and a few articles here and there - nothing that's not here.

I think you should have told him - although I imagine the number of doctors faced with self-diagnosed folks from "reading about it on the internet" is legion so his eyes might still glaze over.

He should answer those questions for you [especially like "so this thumb over thing, what about legato?"] - If he can't [or doesn't accept what you have if he sees the original descriptions] you'll need to find another teacher - but I wouldn't sit there arguing about it.

I am pretty sure he does not know the english languaje (we are spanish speakers), because he told it to me. So, directing him to this forum is useless (and i am not sure i would like him to read my posts, by the way  )

And, even in the case that i print some of the valuable information available here and i make the effort to translate it to him, i am pretty sure he will look at it and say:

Bernhard?
Xvimbi?
etc, etc...

Who are these guys?
Why are they supposed to know more than me?

So, its not so easy 

I will probably continue with him for the moment, while carefully looking for another teacher 

[Siberian Husky]

good choice..its your money..they are your goals...and your smarter than to just be told right from wrong blindly without proper explanation or logic behind it..afterall..you are not a child..and teacheres make mistakes of looking down upon their students as if a level of superiority were between them with the instructors towering over us students....i like a teacher who takes into concderation heavily my idea..as heavily as she/he takes her own ideas..afterall..im not a mindless pupil...im glad i have a teacher that knows outside her piano room im just like most people who conjur ideas and manifest thoughts....

i like to be explained why people believe right from right or this from that...i dont need facts..perhaps experiences, episodes they have encountered..or just plain logic..so be told one thing from another simply "just because"..insults me...it not so much whats right or whats wrong..its more about if what they are sayinghas any depth whatsoever

[jeremyjchilds]

And, even in the case that i print some of the valuable information available here and i make the effort to translate it to him, i am pretty sure he will look at it and say:

Bernhard?
Xvimbi?
etc, etc...

Who are these guys?
Why are they supposed to know more than me?

So, its not so easy 

Showing him printed information from a website is the worst idea ever, so I'm glad that you won't do that.

THe fact is taht there is no perfect way to teach the piano. He has been teaching in a certain way because that is his way!! he will not change, because he has to have had success with his way or he woulden't still be teaching. His style and pedagogy suits his personality and teaching style.

If you are not feeling it, don't argue, just change teachers...

I enjoy taking lessons from people that I occassionaly disagree with, though, because there is always something that I had not thought of...

[leahcim]

Showing him printed information from a website is the worst idea ever

It can't have been worse than the Japanese pritt-stick butter thing

I see your point, but the posts themselves are written by someone who, IIRC, has said he changed his methods because they weren't working and may change them again.

It wasn't a suggestion made to say "This is the perfect method" and hand over a printout - for one thing the posts themselves are clearly incomplete and state that fact.

It was a few specific technique / interpretation questions to a particular piece. For that, the teachers method already wasn't working the main complaint aside from the argument was his lacklustre descriptions [it takes 2 to argue after all and I'd have said the guy who knows best and has the meter ticking should have dealt with it better]

You say he won't change, but that assumes 2 things, firstly that he thinks like you [unless you don't, in which case where did it come from?] and secondly that he has something to learn/change in the first place - it could be that some of the technique / method is known to him e.g "thumb over" doesn't mean anything in English - and now we know that he doesn't speak English anyway, I can't imagine that it translates that well either.

AIUI There are plenty of other potential references for parts of the material [The Fink book and others, the C Chang pdf which is in Spanish covers "thumb over", the Chang book itself refers to several other references for that description including Liszt [via Amy Fay] many of those references are in the posts - so even though appeals to authority are fallacies if he wants "names" you can give him names.

[cadenz]

in some ways i have a similar teacher, and i have learned that arguing with your teacher does not get you very far. apart from a few nuancies she has much to offer in the way of teaching me piano. in a way i compromise to come between how i would interpret something and how she tells me to interpret it. or some advice as far as strict technique rules are concerned, (for instance thumb over in your case) providing it actually sounds good, she doesn't say anything.
there is nothing to stop you working on different things such as thumb over at home from advice you've learned here, so go ahead and do that. but practice thumb under too. they are both important skills and also they will please your teacher, and in turn he might have more to offer. if you get to a point when you can apply different techniques and still attain the same sound quality as using his one-size-fits-all techniques, then i doubt he'll mind.

[eins]

stormx,
I read pretty much all of this thread and nowhere could I find even a hint of what you actually LIKE about your teacher. We know about his weaknesses and problems as they pertain to your way of doing and seeing things, but we don't know why in the world are you still with him. There must be a lot of good things about him. Maybe if you can concentrate on those and think positive, the few points of disagreements might become minor and diminish alltogether