Shigeru SK-5 vs Sauter 185 Delta

[wzkit]

Assuming both cost the same (which they do not, the Sauter costing considerably more!), which would you prefer, and why?

[wzkit]

Let me elaborate a little more on my impressions of the SK-3 and the Sauter Alpha 160, to kick off this discussion on their larger cousins.

Personally, I found the Shigeru more "mellow", "darker", more "transparent" and more uniform in its timbre (with and without the una corda), with a somewhat weaker treble than I would like (though that could brighten as the piano is "seasoned" with use). Its action is its strongest point - I've never played an action as smooth and as responsive. Fast passaages are really quite a breeze with this piano.

The Sauter on the other hand, is a different animal. It has an incredibly fat and sustaining sound despite its size (perhaps even too fat for my tastes). The treble is considerably stronger and brighter than the Shigeru, which is a plus. What I like is the range of colours that can be produced by a combination of sustain and una-corda pedal effects, and finger pressure. Its not just volume that changes, but timbre as well. Unfortunatey, its action is too heavy for my liking.

Wonder if anyone might have similar experiences to share?

[jeremyjchilds]

I have had the same experience with many sauter pianos.

[Axtremus]

WZKit,

I have never played a Sauter-185, but I have played SK-5 and Sauter-220 (Omega), so I'll just compare SK-5 to the Sauter-220 (all new pianos in showrooms).

General Impression: Sauter 220's treble is much brighter, and in some sense, "thicker" than the SK-5. In terms of bass-treble balance, I found Sauter-220's treble to be very bright even when I compare that to its bass. I do not recall feeling one's action to be much heavier than the other (yes, I'm comparing SK-5 with carbon action). Nice, solid base on the Sauter-220. The Sauter-220's bass definitely sounded "deeper" and "tighter" than the SK-5 (it is, after all, 23 cm longer than the SK-5).

Comparison with musical context:

Recall trying passages from Mozart's K.545, Albeniz's "Tango", Chopin's Op.45 Prelude, Debussy Arabesque I, Rzewski's "The People United" variations, even the Theresa Teng song "The Moon, My Heart" -- thought the Sauter-220's treble was too bright for these, prefered SK-5's bass-treble balance for these selections (though the Rzewski variations could certainly take advantage of the Sauter-220's bigger bass). The Sauter-220's una corda was very smooth... took very little effort to shift the keyboard. Nothing "good" or "bad" about the light una corda, just a very different feel to get use to. No other significant complain.

Gershwin Prelude I -- here, the Sauter-220 faired better. Its brighter, more piercing treble did not sound as objectionable here. As far as personal preference go, it's a wash between SK-5 and Sauter-220.

Then I tried my transcription of this little piece... I don't know who composed it or what it's official English-translated title is, so I'm just going to give you an MP3 clip and hope you recognize it (recorded on my own piano, not on the Sauter-220): Unending_Love.mp3. Now for this little piece, the Sauter-220's bright treble fits right in! It gave me the imagery of a young beautiful starlet with a high soprano voice singing in a club in 1930's Shanghai as depicted in old movies... the melodic line naturally cuts through everything and draw every one's attention.

There were two more features on the Sauter-220 that I really liked -- (1) that Sauter-220 has little white plastic strips on the dampers of white keys so you know which damper is associated with which key, and (2) that Sauter-220 has two cruved lines marked on the soundboard, these two lines trace two different proportionate fractions of the string lengths. Now, normally, I would not care about any of these. But some modern piano pieces require the pianist to pluck or tap or snap at or sweep the strings with his fingers. This is when these two features become very useful -- the white markings on the dampers help you figure out which strings belong to what note (so you can pluck/tap/snap the right notes), the two curved lines help you position your "strike points," so to speak, since plucking/tapping/snapping/sweeping the strings at different places of the strings would produce different timbres.

Not long before I ran into the Sauter-220, I recoreded this on my piano: [another short mp3 excerpt]. I plucked/tapped/snapped at strings, often time guessing at (as opposed to "knowing") which notes I was manipulating. I think I could have executed that passage better had my piano have those special markings on the dampers like the Sauter-220 has. (Of course, later I learnt that I could have used white chalk to make my own marking on my piano's dampers. But the Sauter's markings look much cooler!)

Conclusion? Not much to conclude, really. Which one to prefer depends on what one likes to play (and hear). It just so happens that for me, I think most of the music I like to play would sound/play better on the SK-5 than the Sauter-220, so I'd probably go with the SK-5. But for some one whose repertoire has more elements in common with the two mp3 clips referenced above (or just like to have a stronger/brighter treble), the Sauter-220 would be a sensible choice as well.

Good luck.

[wzkit]

Hi Axtremus,
          Thanks once again for your very informative reply. Your impressions about the respective qualities of both pianos would apply to almost all the Sauters and Shigerus, I suspect. I think another way of putting it, is that the Shigeru is more "neutral" overall, possibly making it more versatile for a wider range of repertoire, but not being particularly "distinctive" in each, whereas the Sauter is a piano that certainly sounds very distinctive, but perhaps not as versatile.
         I particularly liked your analogy of "a young beautiful starlet with a high soprano voice singing in a club in 1930's Shanghai as depicted in old movies... the melodic line naturally cuts through everything and draw every one's attention". This aspect is pretty important to me, given that I like to play pieces with a cantabile line over a pianissimo accompaniment. I guess the ideal piano for me would combine the Sauter's bell-like treble, its distinctive una-corda effects, with the more transparent tone of the Shigeru, topped off with the Shigeru's Milllenium 3 action!
           One option I'm seriously considering now is to ask the Shigeru dealer to prep the piano such that the treble is somewhat stronger than it is now, and see if there's anything he could do to get a more distinctive una-corda effect. This seems a far more affordable option than getting the Sauter, which is nearly twice the price here in Singapore, before discounts. And in any case, I was wondering if the more subdued treble of the Shigerus are due to poor dealer prep. Based on all the Shigeru posts I've read here and on Pianoworld, I have never gotten the sense that a weak treble was a problem with the SK series. On the contrary, it seems to me that the common comment is a bell like treble.

[Axtremus]

Saw you asking the same question on that other website, so I dug this thread to see what's here...

          Thanks once again for your very informative reply. Your impressions about the respective qualities of both pianos would apply to almost all the Sauters and Shigerus, I suspect. I think another way of putting it, is that the Shigeru is more "neutral" overall, possibly making it more versatile for a wider range of repertoire, but not being particularly "distinctive" in each, whereas the Sauter is a piano that certainly sounds very distinctive, but perhaps not as versatile.

The big Shigeru gets less neutral... I think they work rather well with late romantic/neo-romantic music (e.g. Rachmaninoff, Scriabin). The thick, lush sound lends itself well to thickly chorded, thickly layered music, yet with enough "transparent quality" to let you hear what's going on with different layers of sound. Though paradoxically, I do not quite like Brahms on big Kawais even though Brahms like to use thick texture in his music... something about Brahms' harmony that does not jive well with Kawai's signature sound in my ears.

I particularly liked your analogy of "a young beautiful starlet with a high soprano voice singing in a club in 1930's Shanghai as depicted in old movies... the melodic line naturally cuts through everything and draw every one's attention". This aspect is pretty important to me, given that I like to play pieces with a cantabile line over a pianissimo accompaniment.

I suppose there too are many sorts of cantabile to appeal to different ears. Theresa Teng's cantabile in "The Moon Represents My Heart[/i] is very different from Francis Yip's cantabile in "The Bun [Shang Hai Tahn]" which is different from the idea of cantabile in Wagner's opera and again very different from the idea of cantabile in Peking Opera... the "1930 Shanghai Nightclub Singer" is just one type of cantabile, good in her own way, but I wouldn't want her singing Verdi or Celine Dion's number.

[suz]

Hi wzkt. Hi Axtremus. Found you over here, too!
wzkt, any word yet on the SK-5? I can't remember if I told you this, but I was truly amazed at the difference between the SK-3 and SK-5. I thought he SK-3 was a lovely, sweet-sounding instrument. My SK-5 is totally different. Well, not totally different--it has the same refined quality of sound--but it is just more...uh...MORE. I can't describe it very well. The sound is more physical, somehow. The bass kicks you in the gut, and it's almost as if I can physically feel the shape of all notes. Of course, I don't know if these just happen to be qualities of these two particular instruments. I would love to find an SK-6 somewhere to see how it compares.

[wzkit]

Hi wzkt. Hi Axtremus. Found you over here, too!
wzkt, any word yet on the SK-5? I can't remember if I told you this, but I was truly amazed at the difference between the SK-3 and SK-5. I thought he SK-3 was a lovely, sweet-sounding instrument. My SK-5 is totally different. Well, not totally different--it has the same refined quality of sound--but it is just more...uh...MORE. I can't describe it very well. The sound is more physical, somehow. The bass kicks you in the gut, and it's almost as if I can physically feel the shape of all notes. Of course, I don't know if these just happen to be qualities of these two particular instruments. I would love to find an SK-6 somewhere to see how it compares.

Hi Suz,
        No word on the SK-5! Apparently the dealer sold the sole SK-5 in his inventory before I had a chance to try it out!!! Which means I will need to wait for some time before he brings in the next copy, maybe next December?  I''m pretty sure that the SK-5 will be much more powerful than the SK-3, but still, I worry about the weakness in the treble in that particular octave you were talking about. This same problem was present in a RX-6 I tried out last week. Which leads me to wonder if it is simply part of the scale design inherent in Kawais - something that you either find acceptable or you don't.
         I certainly hope a new copy of the SK-5 is brought in soon, otherwise I might just go for the Sauter. If there's one factor overwhelmingly favouring the Sauter, its not the piano itself (though that's a very impressive piano), but rather, the dealer himself, or rather the excellent service he has provided me. No sales pressure, always willing to let me try, knowledgable honest. I'm beginning to realize how important the service factor weighs in the final decision!

[Axtremus]

I would love to find an SK-6 somewhere to see how it compares.

You get even, uhm..., MORE. I played SK-3, SK-5, and SK-6 in the same room. The SK-5's good, but that majestic, glorious bass really kicks in when you get to the SK-6.

I'm pretty sure that the SK-5 will be much more powerful than the SK-3, but still, I worry about the weakness in the treble in that particular octave you were talking about. This same problem was present in a RX-6 I tried out last week. Which leads me to wonder if it is simply part of the scale design inherent in Kawais - something that you either find acceptable or you don't.

Theoretically, the RX-6 and the SK-6 share the same basic scale design. The differences are mainly in material selection, seasoning, and craftsmanship (at least that's what a Kawai rep. wrote in that other forum). But having played the pianos, I think the RX-6 is sufficiently different. The RX-6's initial attack comes out weaker, quite a distance away from the power that you can summon from SK-5/6, treble and bass alike. And than there is this "tonal refinement" factor that I just find lacking in the RX-6 when compared to the SK-3/5/6.

As for the treble (top three octaves on the keyboard), I can think of a few pianos with treble that "rings out" more brilliance than the SK-3 in my experience... the Sauter Omega described above, Yamaha C6, C7, S6, most Schimmels, recent (as in late 2004 and after) Estonias, and pretty much every Faziolis I've ever played. Of course, whether one likes the more brilliant treble is a matter of personal taste.

If there's one factor overwhelmingly favouring the Sauter, its not the piano itself (though that's a very impressive piano), but rather, the dealer himself, or rather the excellent service he has provided me. No sales pressure, always willing to let me try, knowledgable honest. I'm beginning to realize how important the service factor weighs in the final decision!

It is always a good thing to have a good dealer standing behind his products. Glad you have found a dealer who has given you such confidence. (And I dislike high-pressure sales tactic just as much as any one else... if that high-pressure guy cannot win your business because of it, well that serves him right!)

[wzkit]

I suspect this dealer expects me to order the SK-5 sight unseen, which is what some of his customers have done. Perhaps most buyers here aren't as fussy as I am, but if if I have remaining doubts about the SK-3's treble, surely its reasonable for me to have a decent go at the SK-5 before deciding. I hope these guys realize early enough that such an attitude is turning off a customer who had a 70% chance of getting their product!
Anyway the Shigeru dealer told me before they could apply lacquer to the hammers to resolve the dull treble problem. I do have my doubts about this approach.

At this point, I guess I will just wait for both the Sauter 185 and the SK-5 the enter the showrooms in December, before I can make a decision! The Sauter dealer told me that the Delta he has ordered has a lighter action which could be more to my taste. If the sound is even better than the 160 Alpha currently in his showroom, and if service standards at the Shigeru dealer don't get better, this could well be my final decision despite its higher price.  That said, that Wilhelm Tell I tried last weekend could well be a a surprise candidate if either of these two disappoint

Regarding the RX-6, I do agree there is a very distinct difference in the attack, even when compared to the SK-3. The Shigeru's sound is fuller, deeper, thicker and more powerful. I just don't get the impression that the RX series of pianos are very powerful/loud pianos in general, as the attack is somewhat subdued. They do however, have a relatively clean sound, and the generally softer volumes you get could be good for a home/enclosed envrionment - at least it won't overhwhelm!  Interestingly, I can get the RX-6 for an even cheaper price than the SK-3...

[suz]

You get even, uhm..., MORE. I played SK-3, SK-5, and SK-6 in the same room. The SK-5's good, but that majestic, glorious bass really kicks in when you get to the SK-6.

Thanks, Axtremus. I can only hope I don't suffer an extreme case of piano envy when I do find that SK-6/7! 

wzkt, now that my piano is a little more played in, I am not hearing that "dead" octave anymore. I don't know if it is or was my imagination, or if it's the different repertoire I am working on at the moment, or if I am just getting used to it. It does need to be tuned again (it's gettting to the point where I can't take it anymore--time to call the tuner!), so maybe everything sounds a little overly bright and obnoxious. Here's hoping you find your piano soon!

[wzkit]

wzkt, now that my piano is a little more played in, I am not hearing that "dead" octave anymore. I don't know if it is or was my imagination, or if it's the different repertoire I am working on at the moment, or if I am just getting used to it. It does need to be tuned again (it's gettting to the point where I can't take it anymore--time to call the tuner!), so maybe everything sounds a little overly bright and obnoxious. Here's hoping you find your piano soon!

Hmm..this is very interesting. If that dead octave problem really disappears after being played in, then that's a good thing. Do keep me updated on this issue after you've got the piano tuned! Just can't wait for a chance to try that SK-5 sometime soon! Hope the dealer is cooperative in this