reading leger lines

[pizno]

After 40 years of playing the piano, I still stumble over the leger lines while sightreading.  It's time for this to stop.  Anyone have any hints as to how to learn to recognize them instantly without stopping and squinting at then and counting them out? 

Pizno

[galonia]

You guess.

Seriously - you learn to read by intervals, and you guess the size of the intervals as best you can.  The context that you can get from the melody and harmony usually help you guess.

At least, that's the way I do it.  I never count them.  I never even check my guesses, except for my teacher not saying anything, which means I have played the right note (if I guessed wrong, she would tell me, I'm sure, but I never have).

[xvimbi]

There are tons of hints on this forum. Search for both "ledger" (correct spelling) and "leger" (often-used, but incorrect ). In a nutshell, the most important reference points on ledger lines are the C's, which are on the second ledger line above the treble staff and on the second line below the bass staff. Go from there.

Hope that helps 

[alzado]

When notes are very very low, such as the lowest octave on the piano, or very high, I will sometimes stop and write in the note (e.g., A#).

I am not sure whether it is good to guess, as one person suggested.  With some composers, you can "hear" if you are right.  But . . . with some others, such as Prokofiev, it is much harder to discern whether you are right.  That's because they can use dissonance at times, and are capable of the unexpected.

At least, this is my own experience.

[jeremyjchilds]

Sometimes octaves are used at the extreme registers, so looking for thier counterparts will make it easier...remember space to line, or line to space for octaves.

[jim_24601]

There are tons of hints on this forum. Search for both "ledger" (correct spelling) and "leger" (often-used, but incorrect ).

I hesitate to disagree, but it's actually "leger" as in light or slender. It's a mostly obsolete word in English but not in French. Though these days one can claim "ledger" as a variant spelling .

As far as actually reading them goes, I can tell more or less at a glance up to about 3 lines (I just opened a page of Chopin at random, saw the note in the space above the 3rd leger line on the treble clef and immediately thought "F", so 3 is ok ) Beyond that it's often part of a chord, so you can tell by shape if the less extreme end is somewhere you recognise. Otherwise you've got to get your reference point from somewhere. If I was sightreading I'd probably ... well, guess ... but if I came to learn a piece seriously I'd check by counting before starting my practice, of course.

[xvimbi]

I hesitate to disagree, but it's actually "leger" as in light or slender. It's a mostly obsolete word in English but not in French. Though these days one can claim "ledger" as a variant spelling .

And there I go through the trouble to look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary...

It says:

"3. Mus. ledger line, one of the short lines added temporarily above and below the stave to accommodate notes in a passage which cannot be contained by the usual five lines. They are numbered from the stave upward and downward, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. ledger lines above or below. Also ledger space, a space between two ledger lines or between the stave and the 1st ledger line.
  [The origin of this use is not clear; perh. the word may be the n. used attrib. with allusion to sense A2. The common statement that it represents the F. léger light, slight, is baseless.]
 
  1700 PLAYFORD Skill Mus. i. 6 And then you add a Line or two to the five Lines, as the Song requires, those Lines so added being called Ledger-Lines. 1775 ASH, Leg'erline,..a line above or below the five to receive an ascending or descending note. 1793 Trans. Soc. Arts V. 125 The ledger or occasional lines, drawn through the heads of the notes. 1818 BUSBY Gram. Mus. 20 The situation of G in the first ledger space, being higher than any within the stave, that note is called G in alt. 1879 C. J. EVANS Let. in Musical Times 1 June, A ledger line has never been typographically either lighter in shade or thinner in substance than its accompanying stave lines."


Did you see the part where it says that  "The common statement that it represents the F. léger light, slight, is baseless". (I had too much coffee, obviously)

[jim_24601]

And there I go through the trouble to look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary...

The first rule of Piano Club is that you do not argue with xvimbi.
The second rule of Piano Club is that you do not argue with xvimbi. Or Bernhard.

I thought I was so clever with my little ABRSM book and you go pull out the big guns. I concede the point. Though I'm not actually going to change my spelling because I'm a stubborn bastard and I claim it as a legitimate variant.

Did you see the part where it says that  "The common statement that it represents the F. léger light, slight, is baseless". (I had too much coffee, obviously)

All right, don't rub it in

[galonia]

I am not sure whether it is good to guess, as one person suggested.  With some composers, you can "hear" if you are right.  But . . . with some others, such as Prokofiev, it is much harder to discern whether you are right.  That's because they can use dissonance at times, and are capable of the unexpected.

You can get very good at guessing - I play a lot of modern works, too, especially Australian composers, and my guessing is correct for them too.  Even with dissonances, you can often anticipate the dissonance the composer will use, if you understand their style.

[xvimbi]

The first rule of Piano Club is that you do not argue with xvimbi.
The second rule of Piano Club is that you do not argue with xvimbi. Or Bernhard.

Don't argue with Bernhard, that's right. But you can argue with me. I am not as infallable (infallible? gotta look it up in the OED... )

I thought I was so clever with my little ABRSM book and you go pull out the big guns. I concede the point. Though I'm not actually going to change my spelling because I'm a stubborn bastard and I claim it as a legitimate variant.

To be honest, up until now I didn't bother getting to the ground of it. I was however googling "leger lines" and up came links to "ledger lines", so I thought it was time to resolve the issue. People do indeed use both versions, even if one of them is an illegitimate (not "legitimate") variant 

Oh, by the way: it is "Piano Forum" or "Piano Street", but definitely NOT "Piano Club" (I looked it up in the OED )

[jeremyjchilds]

Allow me to lead us back from the "Semantic Jungle"... just kidding...

But in my experience, I have found that leger lines are usually a problem due to avoidance..

I used to hate them, then i started playing a lot of Brahms and modern works, and now I can instantly recognice up to about 4 leger lines, I'm sure that will improve as time goes on,

So in my opinion  FACE YOUR FEARS...

[alzado]

Galonia --

You write, "You can get very good at guessing - I play a lot of modern works, too, especially Australian composers, and my guessing is correct for them too."

Please, pray tell, how do you know you are right?  You have no idea.  You just guess at it and bang away.

Unless you take some pains to actually count down and identify the note, you really have no way of knowing whether you are correct or not.

How much additional time does it take to study the music carefully and be certain you are playing the correct notes?

[jim_24601]

People do indeed use both versions, even if one of them is an illegitimate (not "legitimate") variant 

Stubborn illegitimate, that's what I sait But shouldn't it be "ledgitimate"?

Oh, by the way: it is "Piano Forum" or "Piano Street", but definitely NOT "Piano Club" (I looked it up in the OED )

Are you sure? I got "the stick you hit your piano with when it steadfastly refuses to play that one particular passage the way you tell it to."

[bernhard]

Am I having a dejá-vu? Check out this thread:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,665.msg25134.html#msg25134
(replies #7 and #9)

  

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[xvimbi]

Am I having a dejá-vu? Check out this thread:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,665.msg25134.html#msg25134
(replies #7 and #9)

  

It is really true: we have come full circle many times. I wasn't aware of that thread. That's hilarious!

[Sketchee]

When I was learning leger lines I would right the note name under the score just that one time.  If I ever saw the note again, I'd just remember "This is the low g from *whatever piece it was*".   In time of thinking it that way, I don't remember which pieces I originally learned the notes from but I never have to guess a note or count

After a while of associating the notes with the different pieces, I can read all of the the inbetween staff notes and more than an octave and a half above and below.  Past that, they usually have 8va