Learning a new piece.

[stokes]

I have never cared very much about fingerings. Specially not when learning a new piece. After playing it several times I get to use about the same fingerings anyway, and those are often pretty good since my fingers decided them after trying many different ones. Of course you need to consider difficult passages, though. I think this is a good way. If ever get in trouble in a performance, it's easier to find a way out. I have never had a teacher who accepted this way of learning and I don't get why?

[martin_s]

I know what you mean. I work pretty much the same way. But I tend to try to scrabble a bit of fingering down a little here and there after a few days of studying the piece though. With the exception of Beethoven passages and other similarities where I tend to make up my mind about the fingering before I start to learn it. I have also discovered that if you are going to do excercices on a passage you have to know exactly what fingering you want to use in order to be able to do that.

Another reason not to write your fingerings down is if they are far too awkward and would make you feel ashamed if someone else looked in your score.
My teacher once, having discovered what fingering I wanted to use on a particular chord in a Debussy Prelude, suggested I better use my foot... Don't try this at home...

[Ckarrlozs]

I work pretty much the same way than you too guys... Most of my teachers never cared too much about what fingerings I used, with the exception of my first teacher.
That is the key I think: When you are a kid and don't really know why this and why that, I think it is important that a skilled teacher takes care of marking fingerings and phrasing etc... Later on you will understand by yourself and be able to break the rules (thumbs on black keys and so on...) in a smart way.
With my young students I always make sure they use the fingerings I mark and above all always the same ones! When they get experienced they'll do whatever they want but hopefully in a coherent way...
I usually don't write down many fingerings on my scores. Only at awkward places where I get stuck because of the stupid use of randomly and unconscioulsy chosen fingers.
"Learn the rules to be able to break them" is I think a rather good system!

[martin_s]

Thumbs on black keys?
Coherent?

[Martijn]

I don't think this method is working with all pieces. Try to study Godowsky's studies no. 42 and 43. This won't work without fingering before studying!
(Dumbs on black keys was introduced by Chopin, wasn't it?)

[Ckarrlozs]

I never made a statement in that direction,... in fact, I didn't even think I had a method for fingerings! I was just giving as an example my own practice guidelines.

The Godowsky studies might very well be one of the most extreme cases you could come up with... As I said I DO mark fingerings when necessary, and in fact even my Chopin studies for instance DO have many numbers all over!

[stokes]

Of course it's impossible to play the Godowsky studies and Chopin, Liszt etudes etc, without having a good fingering. That is more a question of mathematics, to get it work out properly at all. We all know that..... The question I am asking is, is it necessary to decide and always play the same fingerings, lets say in a Mozart sonata? Why? Or why not?

[Ckarrlozs]

HAVING a fingering and actually WRITING IT DOWN are two different things of course...

My opinion (once again...) is that keeping playing with the same fingerings makes sense and shows that you HAVE GOT a fingering. As an example try to type each day with different finger combination! Music has often repeating patterns through different composers and even through history and as martin_s pointed out, you often decide a fingering before playing a passage just by looking at it. That is specially true when sight reading...

Then you can of course at a certain point change your mind about a certain passage and decide to use another fingering...

[Valour]

I believe that fingering choices have an enormous impact on how a piece ultimately sounds in performance.

From the moment I begin working on a piece, I test out various fingering possibilities until I find a solution that best suits the music as well as the shape, strength, and flexibility of my hands. Then I write the fingerings in the score.

I feel that it is important not to acquire bad habits and then to reinforce them by repetition.

Valour

[martin_s]

Christina Ortiz once said in a masterclass I went to something like "If it works perfect 8 times out of 10 then it is a good fingering, otherwise change it!"

Hmmm... I dunno...

[MidKnight22]

It seems that certain works almost require fingerings that seem like common sense.  Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata first movement for example.  I can only imagine it being done one way.  But, what do I know, I've only been playing for eight months    

[mozartean]

If you were to learn a work which consists of several small sections eg. Schumann's Carnaval, how would you go about learning it? Would you learn one piece at a time or a few at a time and master them to a reasonable degree of proficiency before you learn the rest of the work? Or would you learn the whole work and then practise each piece at the same level and intensity?

[MikeThePianist]

I agree with Valour.  The very first thing that I do when learning a piece is figure out logical fingering that will work at fast tempos and will produce a good tone.  This is definitely b/c my teacher is the king of hand arranging passages to simplify things.  You always should be looking for ways to cheat - make the music as easy as possible.  Personally, I find that solid, written fingering from the very beginning assists with both technique and memory.  Ever since I have gotten in the habit of writing things in, I have been able to memorize things with lightning speed.  You dont' realize it's happening at first, but the muscles in your hand are learning it right from the beginning.  They can't do it if you play it differently every time.

Mike

[e60m5]

Fingerings...  

They're annoying and tedious to me, but yes, they are indeed very very necessary to any satisfactory performance of a piece. Whilst any number of fingerings will work and facilitate the physical playing of a passage, whether or not it's the best possible fingering that will allow for the maximum possible control of tone and evenness in sound quality is another question. Any serious pianist here will know that if a fingering works physically perfectly but does not allow for perfect evenness of sound and volume, that fingering must be changed.

I myself do try to work out the best possible fingerings, even if it's just imagining a keyboard under my fingers while I'm on the subway downtown or heading crosstown on a bus... also makes for convenient ways to practice tricky fingerings and getting used to them (as well as getting people to look at you funny  )

On another note, I don't ever write my fingerings down, because I'm paranoid about making any unnecessary markings on my sheet music  

Otherwise, without fingerings, try learning the Godowski transcriptions of Chopin etudes, or Balakirev's Islamey, and be sure to post a link of your recordings done without any fingering...  

[selsa]

In my opinion, fingering is important and the approved fingering on the score needs to be used. It matters more in some pieces than others, but it is a good habbit to always pay attention to the fingering suggested on the score.

I always think of Mozart's Rondo Alla Turca as a good example.

At first, this was before I learned fingering has a very good reason, I tried to use my own finering for the first bar, that worked but I lost evenness and continuity, so I tried the suggested fingering and it worked like magic. I can now easily go from one bar to the next, creating the required continuity.

So learned that fingering is indeed important, if not for ease of playing as well, it is for evenness and continuity of the music. But like I said, in some cases, it may not be that much of a big deal if you used any fingering that you think is physically viable.

But it is a good habbit o always follow the suggested fingering, and if you have the ability to sight read fast and if paying attentiion to fingering isn't slowing you down, why not used it since it is inteded to speed up the progress of the piece.

-Selsa.

-Selsa

[SteveK]

Hi there!

I agree with you, Selsa.  Also if you encounter a fingering that may be uncomfortable, or make you mess up when eventually going at a fast tempo, you may need to make some changes!  What may be OK in a slow tempo won't always be OK if you go in a fast tempo!

[selsa]

I have a question and also a personal disagreement to my own statement above.

Some fingerings do not make sense to me, but that mya be because I am just a beginner.

I was studying and playing Chopin's Etude Op 10 No 9 last night. The four 3/4 beat at the very beginning of the piece are suggested to be played with fingering 1-3-2-3.

That fingering may put your fingers in the best positioin for the next coming notes, but I find that 1-2-1-2 0r 1-2-3-4 work just as well, and are easier.

I find I would rather shift my hand position for the upcoming notes, than have trouble in the first notes. I learned to use the suggested fingering just to improve the habbit, but the other fingerings worked as well with no loss of evenness and continuity of the piece.

Just an example of personal fingering preferences. But do you have any comments on this? I hope you are familiar with the piece. It;s probably one of Chopin's easiest and slowest Etudes.

-Selsa.

[ned]

Selsa,
What edition are you using? I often don't use the suggested fingerings. Sounds like the editor is trying to enforce the two note group with that fingering (ie you have to release after 1-3.)  Your first suggestion 1-2-1-2 seems a bit awkward, and 1-2-3-4  could get mushy because of 3-4.   How about 1-2-2-3? It works for me. Comfortable and you can control the tone.
Ned

[selsa]

Ned,

Thanks for the response. The score I am using is found on

https://sheetmusicarchive.net

BTW, why don't you use suggested fingerings?

Do you automatically understand the right fingering by looking at notes only?

Or do you just figure out what works, and sometimes that's the best thing to do, evn if sometimes it deviates from what's suggested?

-Selsa.

[selsa]

Ned,

Sorry, the particular score I am using for Chopin Etude Op 10 No 9 is found on

https://sheetmusiconline.net/Domain_Music/Chopin/

-Selsa.

[SteveK]

For me, Chopin's Etude Op. 10, no. 9 is the most difficult because it requires stretches for the left hand.  The edition I am using is G. Henle Verlag, Urtext Edition.  It actually goes fast because it's speed is 96 for each quarter half-note!  But since you're a beginner, Selsa, you're taking on quite a challenge!  Hope it goes well with you.

[selsa]

Regarding the Chopin Op 10 No 9, I may have been wrong. It starts out a little slow at first, but overall it's a fast one, especially for the left hand, which I haven't started learning.

The right hand is going well. But looking at the left hand score, it needs a great deal of stretching and speed. I may drop the note that requires stretching or hopping, which may be unavoidable.  

Here are two fingering rules I read somewhere:

1-Thou shall not hop.
2-Thau shall use your thumb in finger crossing.

BTW, I got that Hanon book everyone has been suggesting. It's just wonderful. It has 60 well rounded exercises for coordination, speed, flexibility, and more. I am on exercise 3 now. I would suggest it to anyone, beginner like me or advaced.

-Selsa.

[Neno]

What i find useful with hanon is transposing his studies in all the keys and pracice them!
I think it helps a lot!

[88keys]

Actually Etude Op. 10, No. 9 is one of the easiest Chopin Etudes. Certainly not a piece for beginners, but none of the Chopin Etudes are...

As for the fingering issue: It is always a good idea to at least consider the fingering given in the sheet music. Even if it seems akward to you, it is instructive to find the logic behind the fingering given.

Whether or not one must actually follow this fingering to the letter, is the topic of a new discussion I've started: "The Chopin Etudes - a fingering dilemma".

[rachfan]

I cast my lot here with Valour and other similar thinkers.  The fact is that fingering can make or break a performance in regards to fluidity.   Within each phrase, fingering can enhance or destroy the musical line and objective.  Also, the quicker you achieve a truly well-thought out, workable fingering, the faster you can also unlearn a less-than- optimal fingering of convenience.  

In learning a new piece, there are obvious clues when fingering goes awry.  Firstly, if you run out of fingers in passage work, you need to stop, observe, consider, try, retry, and figure out a viable solution.  Secondly, undesirable, sudden, and illlogical shifts in hand position can also indicate a serious problem with fingering.  Unnecessary shifts, bumps, and jumps will never add to the aesthetics of the sound.  Thirdly,  when conventional fingerings are simply not achieving the aim, it's time to look at less ordinary solutions--like Chopin's crossing the 4th finger over the 5th, for example.  Fourthly, a particular fingering may be inconsistent with touch.  For instance, if a finger legato is just not working properly, the fingering must be scrutinized then and there before bad habits set in.  Often you can choose a fingering more easily by working the passage backwards--try it!  There are other indicators of the need to consider fingerings, but these are some common ones.  

Often, deciding on a proper fingering is all about  preparing the hand in advance to be in the right place at the right time.  For example, it might be important to be at the top of a phrase on a particular finger to facilitate the receding portion of that phrase.  Or, you might need to use a clever fingering to prepare the hand for a chord.  A good fingering can greatly assist in preparing the hand for a  wide leap.  And it can help in smoothing out a difficult arpeggio figuration.  Players who don't prepare in this fashion must cope with nasty, but avoidable, surprises instead.

In  learning a new piece, the decisions I reach in the matters of fingering are not necessarily final and binding.  Rather I keep them as tentative choices.  As I become more familiar with the requirements of choreographing the hands, further alterations in fingering might make perfect sense.  For example, there might be a great justification for distributing music between the hands in a measure, thereby totally changing the original fingering selected.  

Finally, I always use urtext or the best editions I can find.  Even there, I do not take written fingerings as gospel (except when indicated by the composer himself), even from a famous pedagogue and editor like Joseffy.  Because everyone's hand is structured slightly differently,  what worked perfectly for Joseffy might not adapt well to my own hand or someone else's--meaning close analyis is in order.  So there are many clues and considerations.  I strongly feel that those who want to simply see how the notes fall under the hand and pell mell allow a fingering of convenience to occur inconsistent with performance practice are making a serious mistake in honing their ability to play that  piece to their fullest potential and in accord with the composer's expectations.  Sometimes the lazy way out will work; but too often it doesn't.

[verwel]

I have a very personal way of "attacking" new pieces: first i learn the score, i won't try to play it if i don't know the score in a perfect way. I learned trough experience that most of the technical problems arising whilest trying to play a piece are due to a lack of knowledge to what you are actually playing. Fingering is needed then in only a (very) few exceptional cases (i have to admit that my tast in music is not too conformistic). Notorious example: the really difficult variation in one of Beethovens piano sonata's (i guess nr.31?), i suppose you all know precisely what i'm talking about.

[amee]

The fingering written on the score is quite important; it usually shows one of the best ways to finger a particular passage.  

[bachopoven]

I just want to quote something from the book "fundamentals of the piano practice":

"You probably won't go wrong if you use the suggested fingering in the score. Or, you will probably get in trouble if you don't."

I personally always try to use the fingering in the score, unless I figure it is hard and find another fingering more suitable to my level (which is a beginner.) To everyone, his won.  To me, using suggested fingering saves me time and helps me avoid difficulties while playing at speed after I learn a piece.

I admire people who never have to see finering suggestions because they can already figure it out easily by looking at the score.

[rachfan]

At the beginner level I would agree that you are generally safe using the fingerings suggested in the sheet music. Your teacher might modify some of it as may be necessary.  The same is true of much of the lower intermediate repertoire.  Once you get into upper intermediate and advanced, the quality of fingerings in edited editions ranges from excellent to dreadful.  There are many stories of editors years ago who were poor pianists at best, paid by the page, who wrote the most illogical fingerings imaginable.  Then again, there were also a few editors like Joseffy in the 19th century, whose clarity of thinking in matters of fingering is still greatly admired today.  

That's why I say again, once you're far enough along, pay close attention to editions before buying them.  Avoid heavily edited editions like the plague, as they often spell trouble if not doom.  Better to get an urtext edition that faithfully follows the composer's autograph and first editions as closely as possible.  It's even better if the composer's original fingerings and the editor's alternatives are somehow coded in the urtext so that you can tell which is which in chosing one or the other.  Most of the time I conceive of my own fingerings.  If there is a nettlesome spot, I usually pay attention only to the composer's suggestions, unless there is a highly respected editor involved, and that fingering seems at least equally effective.  And then, there are some composers like Rachmaninoff who indicate virtually no fingerings (or pedaling) and expect the pianist to figure all of that out on his/her own.

[bachopoven]

And while we're at fingering editions, since the range of figering can be dreadful from some editions, it's worth buying the best editions. I have heard that Henle is one of the best. Especially when you're a beginner and work on just a few pieces, it pays back to purchase the careful editions.

[Ktari]

I agree with those who look at fingerings in scores, but I have to admit myself guilty of just letting my fingers do their thing. If it feels unconfortable at all, though, I use the score fingerings. Sometimes, the score fingerings won't work simply because my fingers won't stretch that far, and that sucks, and then I have to change them. Anyway, fingering is really a relaxed subject, my teacher and I don't really worry too much about it. Problem comes up when you're playing Bach and realize the next notes you need to play would involve your thumb translocating and your 2nd and 3rd fingers twisting... yeah, Bach needs fingering..

[bitus]

I think fingering is one of the most important technical aspects when learning a new piece... If a passage doesn't go the way i want, or it sounds superficial... i know it's because of my fingering, because it's not in my "reflexes" yet.
As for writing it down... i doubt there is any practical application when it comes to really fast passages other than memorizing it easier, but i'm sure there is a psichological one.
Also... when learning a new piece, there is no way we can play with the right fingering from the begining at the final tempo. Fingering changes with tempo...
I saw a post with the question "Thumb on black keys?" I completly disagree... it's a waste of energy  
Bitus

[Sketchee]

When I first met my teacher he saw my fingerings as horrible but said "You're hitting the right notes!"  So now he looks at me in horror when I start playing a piece and then says "If that's the fingering you're gonna use just stick to the one way of playing it" and so it all works out.

As for control of sound and tone, after a while of playing it can be learned to control the piece with alternative fingers.  I often now just use the written fingering to save time and memorize it very quickly so I can get to the musical aspects. But getting away from the written fingers also can give you a great understanding of why a certain fingering was suggested.  If you understand why they suggested to finger something a certain way, you can figure out how to make your hands work to achieve that same effect.  Remember that you might not have the same hand span as the composer or editor who gives you those fingers so trying to stay ALWAYS with the written fingers could easily not work for you.  Sometimes you can adapt your hands to the written fingerings but it could also be a lot more efficient to adapt the fingering to your hand.

[eddie92099]

Rachmaninov said the working out of fingerings in a new piece accounts for more than half of the total work necessary. Therefore, it is imperative that we do not play a piece simply with whichever fingers happen to be above the notes at a particular time. Good fingering not only makes playing a piece much easier for the hand, it also attributes to the character of a given passage. For example, the opening two notes of the Hammerklavier sonata must both be played with the left hand - otherwise the whole effect is lost. Simply going through the score with a pencil marking in fingerings at the piano before you play the piece for the first time will help immensely,
Ed

[meiting]

Rachmaninov said the working out of fingerings in a new piece accounts for more than half of the total work necessary.

Well, that's certainly true for his own music. I never like to write down fingerings, because that freezes me into a particular one, and it might not be even the best one. I just go with the most comfortable fingering, and if you need to write it down, so be it, but remember to be flexible about it: whatever fingering you or your teacher has written down for you probablly will work, but it might not be "DA BEEST" fingering out there.

mt

[Hmoll]

Well, that's certainly true for his own music. I never like to write down fingerings, because that freezes me into a particular one, and it might not be even the best one. I just go with the most comfortable fingering, and if you need to write it down, so be it, but remember to be flexible about it: whatever fingering you or your teacher has written down for you probablly will work, but it might not be "DA BEEST" fingering out there.

mt

Very true.  Fingerings have to be worked out, but they should be flexible, and changable. For example, a particular fingering might work at a slow tempo, but when you speed it up, it may not be as facile.
Also, there are those who say you should write down every fingering. That's a little pedantic. The obvious fingerings do not need to be written. It's like highlighing important information in a textbook you are studying. If you highlight everything, that defeats the purpose.

[bitus]

meiting,
that's probably what most pianists do, but it causes lacks of memory, insecurity, and above all, stops you from playing 100% musical, because you will stil be concerned with technical problems. Get them out of your way!
It's also a note of superficiality...
Of course, when you think about it, or even write it down, you write it down thinking about the final tempo. What most students do, is put fingering for the tempo they are basicly sight-reading the piece, and you know the effects of that.
Bitus.

[bitus]

lol Hmoll, we posted the same thought at the same time. I got your reply the moment i posted mine :]
Bitus