Question Related To Orchestras - The Role Of The Conductor

[fuel925]

Sorry that this question doesn't relate to pianos, but I assume that as we are all musicians here, someone will be able to help me with this

Could someone please clarify (in laymans terms) the role of the conductor of an orchestra. From what I can work out they are there to:

1) Keep the beat - this is fair enough, with a large orchestra it would be difficult for everyone to keep perfectly in time without some kind of "metronome" that everyone can focus on.

2) Signify dynamics - Shouldn't the dynamics be on all the performers scores? Why do they need a conductor to tell them to crescendo or diminuendo?

3) Introduce orchestral sections to the piece - Don't the various sections (woodwind, brass etc) know when to come in by following the score? Why do they need the conductor to tell them this?


I'm sure there are perfectly reasonable answers to the above questions, and i'm eager to learn, so any help would be appreciated, thanks

[hazypurple21]

Much of what the conductor does is unseen to the audience and takes place on in rehearsal. He pretty decides overall how the orchestra will play the piece. He's the head interpreter.

[prometheus]

There needs to be someone in charge who descides how the piece will be performed. This is the conductor.

The stuff he does during the performance is mainly for the audience if you ask me. If it wasn't for the fact that with a conductor it is easier to start off at the beginning or after a fermata(pauze) the conductor wouldn't have much to do.

Surely these people can keep a beat by themselves and surely they know better what dynamics to play than the conductor. But they don't have time to listen what the effect of the overal orchestra is. The conductor makes sure everything sounds balanced during the rehearsal and that everything is played the way he wants it. But during the performance he only helps to smoothen things up and make sure the harder parts become easier. During a concerto he can keep the solist in check.

Imagine this. The guy in charge of the orchestra, the person that is actually playing the 'instrument' called the orchestra, is hidden away back stage while the orchestra plays. He  he is the boss, should get all the credit, but he is hidden away back stage.

Thats why they put him in front of the orchestra trying to make him look as important during the performance as he is during the rehearsal.

Actually, during sovjet times they had an orchestra without conductor because a conductor was in contradiction with sovjet ideology. It works just as well. That's why a pianist can conduct while he is playing the piano in a piano concerto. He limits himself to the essentials, which isn't that much work during the performance.

[xvimbi]

1) Keep the beat - this is fair enough, with a large orchestra it would be difficult for everyone to keep perfectly in time without some kind of "metronome" that everyone can focus on.

Not necessarily. I think the more important "metronome" is the concertmaster, at least in mircoscopic terms (i.e. his/her section, violins plus the other string instruments, will definitely look at him/her first). This person is also the one who rehearses with the orchestra when the conductor is not around. The concertmaster will have a good feeling about the tempi that the conductor wants. If you look carefully, you'll see that in fact it is the concertmaster who is often conducting by moving the head around, not the conductor. This is particularly true if the conductor is not very experienced or drunk.

2) Signify dynamics - Shouldn't the dynamics be on all the performers scores? Why do they need a conductor to tell them to crescendo or diminuendo?

Why do you play a piano piece with different dynamics? After all, the dynamics are in the score. No, dynamics are relative, both macroscopically (in terms of the entire piece) as well as microscopically (within a small section). There is ample room for interpretation and dynamics are one of the most powerful tool for interpretation. Listen to two different recordings of the same symphony, and you'll realize what it is all about.

3) Introduce orchestral sections to the piece - Don't the various sections (woodwind, brass etc) know when to come in by following the score? Why do they need the conductor to tell them this?

Of course they don't. It's all show. Look at how many times a conductor does NOT introduce a section or soloist, and still they come in at the right time. I have seen conductors point at the basses when it was the horns' turn, etc, and they didn't screw up.

I'm sure there are perfectly reasonable answers to the above questions, and i'm eager to learn, so any help would be appreciated, thanks

Remember, the difference between an orchestra and a bull is that the bull has the horns in the front and the a**hole in the back.

[rapmasterb]

Im sure all the conductors out there will appreciate that. The way I like to think of it is the conductor is like a director of a film: He briefs the actors beforehand, decides how he is going to interpret the script and what should go where in the set. He says "ACTION" and "CUT!" and makes occasional gestures to the actors as they act. However during the actual shoting he isn't crucial. A conductor is kind of like that. Which is why when a small orchestra plays with a  soloist in a concerto they sometimes forget about a conductor as he/she would just get in the way. (Note: I am not talking about the soloist conducting aswell - sometimes they actually just forget about the conductor and maybe the leader will fill in some basic things).

[xvimbi]

Im sure all the conductors out there will appreciate that.

I am well aware of the role of the conductor and his/her importance. I was confining my post to answering the original questions, because the overall role of the conductor had already been mentioned. I in fact think that a good conductor is the most important person in an orchestra, whereas a bad conductor is the least important one. The joke I presented is known to any orchestra musician and conductor alike (I first heard it from a conductor, actually).

[rapmasterb]

Sorry xcimbi I was being jocular in my response aswell. It was a good joke and that was just my way of acknowledging it. I know you're not actually not insulting conductors.

[xvimbi]

I know you're not actually not insulting conductors.

Wait a sec. Did this come out semantically correct as intended? I'm asking, because you are saying that I am in fact insulting conductors (double-not)

[pianistimo]

to quote the first page of a now old book 'the modern conductor' by elizabeth a. h. green, she quotes charles blackman:

"the primary function of the conductor is communication" 

richard wagner said: "find the melody in every measure"

"a fine conductor is, first of all, a fine musician.  he must be a sincere and inspiring leader.  he must have integrity where the music is concerned.  he knows his score thoroughly and can convey its meaning to the players through superbly trained hands.  he has developed his sense of pitch not only to be able to sing any part of the score, but to be able to hear it in the mind (the inner ear) so loudly that when the actual rendition does not come up to the standard fixed in the musical imagination he will set about attaining that ideal during the rehearsal.  he knows theory, counterpoint, harmony, musical history, form and analysis.  he has reached a professional performance level himself on some one instrument (or voice) and is eternally interested to learn more and more about the problems of each instrument of his ensemble.  he has, somewhere along the way, taken a thorough course in orchestration; and all transpositions have become second nature."

"any conductor worth his salt must have a mind trained to work as fast as lightening and a thousand times more continuously."

[whynot]

I play a lot of chamber music and enjoy performing in small ensembles without a conductor.  But I also play a lot for conductors and am part of a conducting household, so I want to respond to this issue.  I'm surprised at how little importance is sometimes attached to conductors of larger groups.  It's like being an accompanist, only much much more so:  the real job is to solve problems and make everyone look good, no matter what happens.  Only nobody knows that except the experienced accompanists (ask one, if you're not one yourself).  People tend to think they're just following the singer.  Holy cow, if I just followed the singer, I'd be on the moon right now, I'd have travelled so far from the score.  Similarly, the conductor's job is to make everything WORK, and not just in rehearsal.  Cues:  good cues are important in performance.  At the very least, they are an encouragement that yes, this is my time to play--when you've just counted 185 measures of rest, it's reassuring to see that someone who knows the piece a hundred times better than you is looking at the same measure you are.  Because the orchestral performers don't have a full score; they can't just follow the other parts and see when to come in.  They have their own notes, and sometimes hundreds of measures of rest (literally), depending on the piece.  More than an encouragement, cues can be a lifesaver when the music is frenetic and there are a hundred people on stage playing twenty-plus different parts.  TIMING:  sure, people can play together in a generally organized way on their own, but the more performers there are, and the more detail you want, the less together it will be without someone indicating very precise placement of certain moments.   DYNAMICS: as others have mentioned, having consistent dynamics between so many people is much better done with a leader.  The related issue of balance is a big one--someone needs to frequently attend to proportion.   ALL OTHER NUANCE:  there are so many artistic decisions to be made in any piece of music.  Someone needs to make these decisions for the group, and they are most consistently and eloquently carried out when the music flows through one interpreting person.  Someone has to really know the whole piece-- every measure, every part--and bring everyone together in timing and in spirit.   A good concertmaster is a treasure and can do an awful lot, but can't do all of that with a large group.

Well, I guess I've said my two cents' worth.  Cheers to all!     

[rapmasterb]

Again apologies for the misunderstanding. That second "not" was a mistake.

Perhaps this will clarify what I am saying for you - "You are not not not not not not not not not not uninsulting conductors in any way."

OK bad joke

[xvimbi]

"You are not not not not not not not not not not uninsulting conductors in any way."

Whew, now I feel better