Octave Glissandi

[biscuitroxy12]

Halfway??? Why halfway?

because, I agree that they are OFTEN big heaps of notes that you're just supposed to roll through but often times i have been in situations where they say that there should be a glissandi yet if you play it, it sounds quite annoying. Sometimes my teacher and I have had to come up with an alternative, such as playing a very fast scale instead. There are also times when composers say it's a glissandi but you're only doing five notes instead of going multiple octaves down or up. Know what I mean?

[stevebob]

There's no such thing as a glissandi.

[perfect_pitch]

There are also times when composers say it's a glissandi but you're only doing five notes instead of going multiple octaves down or up. Know what I mean?

No I don't. Because if a composer writes a glissando marking, even on only 5 notes (e.g. Brahms Variations on a theme by Paganini, Book 1 Variation 13), then the glissando doesn't refer to the number of notes being played... it refers to how you physically play them.

So if a piece is marked with a glissando marking, then you HAVE to play the first octave and drag down the right hand (or drag up in the Left hand) as opposed to playing them as singular octaves.

[biscuitroxy12]

No I don't. Because if a composer writes a glissando marking, even on only 5 notes (e.g. Brahms Variations on a theme by Paganini, Book 1 Variation 13), then the glissando doesn't refer to the number of notes being played... it refers to how you physically play them.

So if a piece is marked with a glissando marking, then you HAVE to play the first octave and drag down the right hand (or drag up in the Left hand) as opposed to playing them as singular octaves.

Have you ever played a one octave glissandi?

[perfect_pitch]

Have you ever played a one octave glissandi?

Now, do you mean a standard glissando that was about one octave, or an actual octave glissando?

If it's the former - then yes, I've played an octave glissando that was only 6 notes in length... Yes - as I said, Brahms Variation 13 from his Book 1 of the Paganini Variatiions, AND one that was two octaves in length in Stravinsky's 3 Movements from Petrushka.

[biscuitroxy12]

Now, do you mean a standard glissando that was about one octave, or an actual octave glissando?

If it's the former - then yes, I've played an octave glissando that was only 6 notes in length... Yes - as I said, Brahms Variation 13 from his Book 1 of the Paganini Variatiions, AND one that was two octaves in length in Stravinsky's 3 Movements from Petrushka.

Technically, I mean a standard glissandi.

[stevebob]

There's no such thing as a glissandi.

[perfect_pitch]

Technically, I mean a standard glissandi.

Yeah.. I've played a few of them from time to time.

[slow_concert_pianist]

I can now do the octave glissandos in the Waldstein 3rd (Beethoven)...hmmm shame about the rest of the movement. The main transition was belief in my ability to perform them. Playing them in a relaxed way fails to cause any injury and when you can do them you wonder what all the fuss was about.

The glissando 3rd's in Liszt's Rákóczi-Marsch (HR 15) are far from being mastered and I often "snag" a finger in my lack of confidence. Has anyone conquered them?

[carrot_cake]

After failing to manage the octave glissando on the Waldstein (heavy grand at home) in the past i actually specifically bought tickets directly behind Barenboim in the side gallery when he played during his full sonata cycle at last year at the London Royal Festival Hall. He then went and played them with both hands ignoring the glissando markings. :S

But I guess you can’t do that with every piece they appear in… It’s a good example of how pianos have changed over the centuries. I mean I just can’t bring myself to keep the pedal down in the first movement of the moonlight all the way through, with the resonance of notes these days on modern pianos, but that’s what would’ve worked then…

[perfect_pitch]

I can now do the octave glissandos in the Waldstein 3rd (Beethoven)...

Now... I may have glasses and bad eye-sight, but I just read-through the third movement of the Waldstein sonata and didn't see a single marking for an octave glissando???

Where exactly does it happen??? Which bar???

[pianisten1989]

it's not written as an octave gliss. It's in the prestissimo part, and very fast octaves. So either you have incredibly fast octaves, or you play them as a gliss..

[perfect_pitch]

Judging by the music, I believe it has to be controlled octaves played with the finger and thumb and carefully played with good timing... instead of dragging the arm down/up (in the Left hands case)

I'm not sure you could really call that a glissando.

[carrot_cake]

Ok then, by the sound of it it's just my copy that 'suggests' (i.e. with no alternative even considered) you play as an octave glissando for those ascending and descending runs. That said, i haven't got the sheet music at work but i swear when you get to the LHs turn to play the ascending part the RH is preoccupied, so there's very little alternative but to glissando them. I'd love to see screen screen shot of a page with fingering that doesn't included glissandi(er...ing :S)

[shadowzerg]

There's no such thing as a glissandi.

Because you say so or because it doesn't exist? Looks like what would be the plural form of glissando to me

[stevebob]

Because you say so or because it doesn't exist? Looks like what would be the plural form of glissando to me

That's exactly right:  a glissando, some glissandi ... but never vice versa.

[perfect_pitch]

Ok then, by the sound of it it's just my copy that 'suggests' (i.e. with no alternative even considered) you play as an octave glissando for those ascending and descending runs. That said, i haven't got the sheet music at work but i swear when you get to the LHs turn to play the ascending part the RH is preoccupied, so there's very little alternative but to glissando them. I'd love to see screen screen shot of a page with fingering that doesn't included glissandi(er...ing :S)

Here you go...

Which leads me to believe that you have to play this rhythmically as written instead of playing glissando style. The fact that there's no mention of the word gliss or any markings to suggest otherwise, plus the fact that if you were to play glissando, I think it would sound messy.

[slow_concert_pianist]

Here you go...

Which leads me to believe that you have to play this rhythmically as written instead of playing glissando style. The fact that there's no mention of the word gliss or any markings to suggest otherwise, plus the fact that if you were to play glissando, I think it would sound messy.

There appears to be "glissando" written on the surviving Beethoven hand written notation. However his writing is so poor that it could be anything. Musically it works better as a glissando, but those with technical performance limitations would not majorly detract with rapid octaves. On a side note, I find a glissando far easier to perform than rapid octaves, which, at a good performance speed are hellishly hard to control.

[horowitzian]

You would know, I'm sure. 

[horowitzian]

That's exactly right:  a glissando, some glissandi ... but never vice versa.

Ah, yes, the joys of pluralization. On that really bugs me is use of [sic] forums instead of the proper fora. 

[retrouvailles]

On that really bugs me is use of [sic] forums instead of the proper fora. 

Nevermind the off topic spelling mistake in this sentence, but "forum" has been completely assimilated into the English language and is therefore subject to its standard rules of pluralization. Therefore, "forums" is correct. If we were speaking Latin, it would be a different story (we would also have to consider any possible declensions, which would further mutate the word beyond pluralization). Just my two cents.

[slow_concert_pianist]

You would know, I'm sure. 

How? I mean, how can you be sure? Or are you another "judge" who follows slandererous comment, rather than music?

[stevebob]

Nevermind the off topic spelling mistake in this sentence, but "forum" has been completely assimilated into the English language and is therefore subject to its standard rules of pluralization. Therefore, "forums" is correct. If we were speaking Latin, it would be a different story (we would also have to consider any possible declensions, which would further mutate the word beyond pluralization). Just my two cents.

What you assumed to be a spelling mistake looked like a prosaic typo to me, just like your own use of "nevermind" [sic] instead never mind.

[horowitzian]

How? I mean, how can you be sure? Or are you another "judge" who follows slandererous comment, rather than music?

Pretty funny, considering the source.

Nevermind the off topic spelling mistake in this sentence, but "forum" has been completely assimilated into the English language and is therefore subject to its standard rules of pluralization. Therefore, "forums" is correct. If we were speaking Latin, it would be a different story (we would also have to consider any possible declensions, which would further mutate the word beyond pluralization). Just my two cents.

It was, as stevebob so eloquently put, a prosaic typo. Also, aside from any linguistic concerns, I find forums to be clumsy on the tongue, and thus much prefer fora. But I digress. Back to your regular programming.

[retrouvailles]

What you assumed to be a spelling mistake looked like a prosaic typo to me, just like your own use of "nevermind" [sic] instead never mind.

Actually, the typo I was referring to was the first word of horowitzian's sentence "On", which should have been "one". Also, according to the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary, "nevermind" is spelled correctly with or without the space. I prefer it without the space. Any more problems? Or can the topic resume?

[stevebob]

Actually, the typo I was referring to was the first word of horowitzian's sentence "On", which should have been "one". Also, according to the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary, "nevermind" is spelled correctly with or without the space. I prefer it without the space. Any more problems? Or can the topic resume?

Actually it was obvious that "On" was intended to be "One," and that is, in fact, the prosaic typo to which I referred.  And I think it was you who derailed the thread with a gratuitous remark about misspelling and a mini-screed about Latin vs. English plurals.  So I guess when you think there are no more problems, then the topic can resume. 

[thalberg]

Put your fifth finger in your mouth before you do the octave gliss.  Professionals all do it.  Lubrications helps a lot.  Trust me.  Especially if it's beethoven first concerto, which allows plenty of time for this.

[perfect_pitch]

Put your fifth finger in your mouth before you do the octave gliss. 

WHAT?!? I'm doing the Paganini Variation No. 13 and Stravinskys Petrouchka and have glissandi for the right and left hand and I don't need no lube...

I figure that I'll toughen my hands up by doing so.   

[mistermoe]

There appears to be "glissando" written on the surviving Beethoven hand written notation. However his writing is so poor that it could be anything.

On Beethovens autograph there is nothing written about a glissando. At least i didn't find anything ressembling this word. (correct me if i'm wrong) All he does is put the fingering 1 5 on each octave.

I have attached that page of the autograph as a jpg if you are interested.

When i played it (some years ago) i thried playing it as scales with both hand, but decided to do the glissando in concert. Today i'm not sure which way Beethoven really wanted us to play it. Gliss or fast octaves. We will never know, i guess 

[birba]

There's an O and some chicken scratch just before the octaves.  I wonder what it means...

[mistermoe]

There's an O and some chicken scratch just before the octaves.  I wonder what it means...

The chicken scratch means pianissimo and i'm pretty sure the O means release the pedal.

[keyofc]

perfect pitch - I see you and Dinosaur have the same teachers..

[perfect_pitch]

1) Who the hell is dinosaur???

2) I doubt that since I've never shared who I'm being taught by!

[keyofc]

Read the posts - relax!



 

[perfect_pitch]

I did and I don't see anyone named dinosaur...

I'm still trying to figure it that first comment was a compliment, an observation or an insult.   

[stevebob]

Maybe the reference was to this post by "dinosaurtales":

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=1209.msg7761#msg7761

I wonder if dinosaurtales has the same teacher now that seven years have elapsed since he or she posted.   

[perfect_pitch]

sh*t - didn't know this thread was 7 years old... Christ - who bumped it???

I still don't get what made him think we have the same teacher...

[stevebob]

sh*t - didn't know this thread was 7 years old... Christ - who bumped it???

I still don't get what made him think we have the same teacher...

Although this topic was started almost 7 years ago... it's still odd to see people having trouble with the octave glissandi.

I only knew about them a year ago when I came across the Stravinsky Petrushka arrangement and Brahms Paganini Variations... both of which I have to bloody well play.

[perfect_pitch]

Hey - I didn't bump it - someone beat me to it...

[stevebob]

Hey - I didn't bump it - someone beat me to it...

You're right.  But you expressed surprise today that the thread was seven years old and asked who bumped it—despite having responded last month to the person who bumped it and acknowledged at that time that the thread was seven years old.

I thought that was kind of funny, that's all.

[harmonybear]

I just signed on here and after skimming through the many posts about the Waldstein glissandi I didn't find a corollary to my college piano prof's story of how he managed them. His approach: The thumbnail works fine if care is taken to avoid skin contact. Here's the part that was a bit radical: He brushed his pinky tips with formaldehyde which, of course, created an instant callous and eliminated the pain factor. That allowed an arch on 5 and thereby the possibility of equalizing the touch in 1 and 5 (which a flattened 5th finger confounds). A well-timed octave gliss with equal dynamics in both fingers can sound metrically accurate and create the illusion of dazzling 'fingered' octaves. I don't recommend this method but it's interesting to know what pianists will do to get the job done. Isn't this is just another one of Beethoven's challenges to his contemporaries whom he knew would be stymied by it? I'll side with Emmanuel Ax who is humble enough to admit that his body can't do some of the things Beethoven tossed to him (see 'In Search of Beethoven').

[keyofc]

Harmonybear,

That is really interesting!

Wow - I would have liked to watch him play!

and also wonder how his fingers felt for the rest of the piece....

[kliewe]

Thanks Pskim for the advice - I've read so many opinions on the Waldstein octaves but never heard anyone describe exactly how to do it.

But after trying for weeks, I can't do it. I'm thinking you must have pretty huge hands to be able to play an octave with your thumb bent under. I myself can play a normal octave comfortably, but cannot play a ninth without touching other keys.

Which makes me wonder.  Beethoven himself was quite short (5 foot 3 I think), so how was it possible for him to do an octave glissando?  I assume his hands were small too.

[perfect_pitch]

Which makes me wonder.  Beethoven himself was quite short (5 foot 3 I think), so how was it possible for him to do an octave glissando?

In this piece... again, I'm pretty sure this is not to be played as an octave glissando, but rather as single octaves in perfect quaver rhythms.

[birba]

Which makes me wonder.  Beethoven himself was quite short (5 foot 3 I think), so how was it possible for him to do an octave glissando?  I assume his hands were small too.

The pianos of his day had a much much lighter action then today's models.  And I'm convinced, absolutely convinced, they should be played as glissandi.

[avetma]

The pianos of his day had a much much lighter action then today's models.  And I'm convinced, absolutely convinced, they should be played as glissandi.

Well, not exactly. It depends on the piano. If I remember correctly, there is video on Youtube of Arrau playing Waldstein, he does glissando; and it sounds okay, not messy. But, that is because his piano had light action and it was possible to do it that way. I played that passage with fingering modification; so it CAN be played without glissandi, and still sound okay.

Nevertheless, I believe Beethoven meant it to be a glissando, eventhough he didn't write that exact word in manuscript (simple because there was no such a term yet). But Ludwig had no idea what piano will be like in 200 years from then.

[birba]

And I think this all goes to show us, that it doesn't really matter.  I heard Kempff play it with both hands, leaving out those few notes, and it sounded fine.  It has to come across light with blurring pedal.  So often I get caught up in these controversies and think they're vitally important, when in fact, they're not.  Not seeing the forest for the trees, so to speak.  It's the larger picture and conception of the sonata that is of vital importance.  I attended the final concert of an international competition a while back where they hadn't given the first prize but awarded the second to a japanese girl who "played" the waldstein.  It was pathetic and unbearable.  It sounded like a music box that had gone berserk.  No tone.  NO phrasing. Nothing.  Then she arrived at the glissandi. played them as glissandi, and it was "Alright.  so what?  What do they mean?!  What are you trying to say?!"

[qoogla_55]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_glissando

[slow_concert_pianist]

The chicken scratch means pianissimo and i'm pretty sure the O means release the pedal.

Well I'm glad you're clear on that, you need to join Dr Dawkins. He loves guys like you who have the mystical ability to utter nonesense....uhmmmm sorry....conviction regards chicken scratch. To me nothing Beethoven wrote is clear until it is played. When you play this passage it is clear that it is to be played glissando as it only works musically that way.

[perfect_pitch]

Really??? That's funny - after checking out 9 different versions of the Sonata - only 3 of them suggest glissando, and the other 6 don't...

If it was clear, then wouldn't ALL the editions suggest glissando?

Plus - I never trust Wikipedia for facts... if it's on the internet - that doesn't mean it's true.

And considering slow... that your 'output' seems to be of the level of an amateur - I wouldn't trust a SINGLE thing you say. Show use you are serious about your playing, and we might take you seriously.