How to memorize a piece for long?

[casparma]

If, say, I had played a Sonanta alot, thereby I was able to remember it without the sheet,
then I left it for, say, 4 months.... 

I could still remember the melody and rhythm, but too bad I just cant play it... although I could revive the memory quickly if I take the sheet again...


I think the main reason is that I cant recognise what note is the tone I can "sing" in my brain.... for example, if you press a sharp on the keyboard, without looking at it, I cant distinguish which note you r playing...

However, I dont what is the problem..


any help/solution to this??

thx

[quantum]

Along with memorizing a piece we also have to deal with resurrecting ones we haven't played in a while.  The more your repertoire grows the more you will have to do this. 

Relearning pieces isn't really a bad thing.  In the time you are not playing that piece, you are most likely working on other pieces that are improving your technique and musicality.  The advantage of forgetting some of the old piece, is that you forget your previous bad habits along with it and apply your newly learned technique and musicality to form an even better interpretation than before.  Things you just couldn't do before in that piece may all of a sudden seem easier because you have grown musically in the time you weren't playing that piece. 

[casparma]

sure..

but how come my teacher can remember like all the pieces I have come so far?

2ndly, without the book, after I play a song he does not recognise, he can still repeat what I play. How's that possible??

[bernhard]

Have a look here (for starters):

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4168.msg38569.html#msg38569
(Keeping pieces polished – learn/forget/relearn)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[casparma]

thanks bernhard....

However, how important is memorisation??  My teacher never ask me to remember a piece..... I wonder is he being linient on me or not....

plz help

[mmccarthy]

I memorize just about everything I learn from the start, regardless of whether my teacher tells me to do so or not. I do this for two main reasons:

1. My sightreading skills are still in need of improvement (still working on it...).
2. It's nice to be able to play pieces from memory without sheet music. This way, you can play great music anywhere at any time, given a piano/keyboard - it's good for practice, personal entertainment, and even showing off at not necessarily expectied times. It's  also nice to not need to worry about flipping pages and such all the time.

Of course, if you have a recital, the modern convention would usually require performance from memory. I probably haven't had any of those formal recital things in a year, though. Seeing that your teacher doesn't force you to memorize pieces, it's not improtant to him/her... in this case, it's up to you to decide. If you think the benefits outweigh any extra work you might need to put in, then go for it.

[gruffalo]

when re-learning pieces, more often than not you end up playing them better than you originally did.

[casparma]

thx for the advices.....

[bernhard]

thanks bernhard....

However, how important is memorisation??  My teacher never ask me to remember a piece..... I wonder is he being linient on me or not....

plz help

Memorising is not a matter of life and death. Of course a performing pianist is expected to play from memory (but not everyone follows this injunction – which apparently was started by Clara Schumann, and at the time everyone criticised her for using “cheap circus tricks”- I have seen Andras Schiff play with score, and Richter in his old age also played with the score). Other musicians always play with the score. However, memorising has many advantages, including not having to carry around your scores with you.

In my opinion, what most people call memorising is not memorising at all. They usually mean hand memory, while I mean truly knowing a piece back to front (what key it is in, the time signature, the chord progressions, the motifs, how it is structured, etc.). Memorising also means aural memory (that is, being able to hear the piece in your mind form beginning to end in real time without missing any note).

Read more about memory and how to go about it here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2083.msg17227.html#msg17227
(the basic theory of memory)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3858.msg34936.html#msg34936
(the basics – includes the history of the Art of memory)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7399.msg74758.html#msg74758
(the details of the process using “dozen a day” as an example)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4321.msg40373.html#msg40373
(why do you teach? – policies and teaching methods –pragmatical theory of memory)

As for what your teacher does, it is a complex (but not complicated) act that can be learned (but to do so you must spend time training yourself to master each of the individual components of  this complex task).

1.   He listensto your playing. (you must practise this skill: not just to hear, but to listen)
2.   He them memorises the tune, harmonies, etc. and makes a number of associations as he goes along (again you must train yourself on these skills: memorising a tune will be easier than memorising harmonies).
3.   All along he will draw on his knowledge and experience of music theory (again something you have to know back to front).
4.   He then sits at the piano and as he recalls what he has just heard (another skill to practise in isolation)…
5.   … He plays what he hears in his mind by ear (yet another complex skill: to play by ear)
6.   And depending on his inner strategy for memorising (there are several – aome better then others), he may even “write” the music you are playing in an imaginary score, and then use a photographic memory to “read” this mental score (this sort of skill must be learned by doing things like dictation, for instance).

This of course is just the general outline. The actual process may differ and have many more details.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[gruffalo]

i always give a better performance when not using the score.

[casparma]

thx Bernhard...

It's really a great information....

however, although my progress in piano is at least satisfied by my teacher...

The 1st thing is, he never teaches me ear training... therefore, how can I "understand" the tune/harmonies of what I hear.... by the way, maybe I am too naive, what are the differences between tune, melody, polyphony, and harmony??

The second thing is, he only teaches music theory to me along the pieces I play... and he never test me on music theory.... .. the most part he assesses is the technique of playing piano.....


Thirdly, I am worrying about my sightreading skill... how come my teacher, if not from hearing, can read any piece I play and play it straight ahead (the pieces he's teaching me to play)?? while a new piece like that always take me 2 hours to play OK?


I think I am abit paranoid on this, but the reason is that I only have 3 more years to learn piano.. because I am 15, and I start at 13..... I just wanna play and understand the music at my real best....   I think the chance of having piano lessons while I am studying at university is very slim....


so, any more suggestion/help/solution???

thanks alot

[casparma]

and yeah.. Bernhard..you mentioned about playing by 'ear'....

well, that does not really help if I dont know what notes/chords/signature I actually hear... even though I can sing/hum the score 1000x corectly....


plz help

thx

[xvimbi]

The 1st thing is, he never teaches me ear training... therefore, how can I "understand" the tune/harmonies of what I hear.... by the way, maybe I am too naive, what are the differences between tune, melody, polyphony, and harmony??

Certain things require some initiative by the student. Perhaps, your teacher doesn't feel eartraining is that important at this stage and just wants to focus on other things. So, you need to either practice these things yourself at home, or explicitely ask your teacher to incorporate them into your lessons. Likewise, the definitions of the terms you listed can be found in a basic theory book or on the web. You would not want to waste precious lesson time to discuss them, unless you want to delve into detailed aspects.

The second thing is, he only teaches music theory to me along the pieces I play... and he never test me on music theory.... .. the most part he assesses is the technique of playing piano.....

I do like the approach of dealing with theory as it comes up in the pieces. Theory can be pretty dry, and much will be forgotten by the time it shows up in a piece. You'll be better off this way. If you want to get tested on theory, you could again explicitely ask your teacher to do so or get one of those theory series that have questions in them. There is also plenty of software out there that has quizzes.

Thirdly, I am worrying about my sightreading skill... how come my teacher, if not from hearing, can read any piece I play and play it straight ahead (the pieces he's teaching me to play)?? while a new piece like that always take me 2 hours to play OK?

Starting from zero, it will take years to develop the sight reading skills to be able to play at one's level. It seems you are expecting way too much. Other than that, sight reading needs to be practized as well. Look through the forum to get some pointers.

I think I am abit paranoid on this, but the reason is that I only have 3 more years to learn piano.. because I am 15, and I start at 13..... I just wanna play and understand the music at my real best....   I think the chance of having piano lessons while I am studying at university is very slim....

What is going to happen when you turn 18?

[casparma]

thx xvimbi...


yeah, I would ask my teacher about it...

btw, Bernhard said music theory is integrated for memmorisation, ie, to understand the structure of the score.... can you really forget the theory but still being a great pianist??

to your question, When I am 18, I am going to university outside the country I live, and obviously I wont take the music degree...so I will leave my piano teacher, piano in the home town...... This is just pathetic...


thx for the replies.

[xvimbi]

btw, Bernhard said music theory is integrated for memmorisation, ie, to understand the structure of the score.... can you really forget the theory but still being a great pianist??

I don't know. I am sure, the great pianists all have a solid understanding of music theory (and history, etc.). That makes it kind of hard to answer your question. There are of course excellent Jazz and pop pianists who know very little about theory.

to your question, When I am 18, I am going to university outside the country I live, and obviously I wont take the music degree...so I will leave my piano teacher, piano in the home town...... This is just pathetic...

Nothing will really prevent you from continuing to play the piano wherever you will be.