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Topic: Cramer sonatas  (Read 1988 times)

Offline universo

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Cramer sonatas
on: September 24, 2005, 11:54:04 PM
What about the sonatas for piano about J B. Cramer.

Anybody knows . Where can I find some of his works?
I want some more information and the scores abot his sonatas piano, especially.  :D

Thank you a lot.
 ;)

Offline squigly

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Re: Cramer sonatas
Reply #1 on: September 25, 2005, 09:11:54 PM
www.classical-composers.org/cgi-bin/ccd.cgi?comp=cramer

here u can find what u want about cramer and more...  ;)

Offline universo

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Re: Cramer sonatas
Reply #2 on: October 09, 2005, 07:24:51 PM
Thanks
I knowshhet music plus, but I don´t know other sites or editorial of scores where I could find the sonatas about Cramer.

At minimum, the last of those works. Anybody knows where I can find the sonatas of J. B. Cramer for piano?

Thank you a lot.
 :)

Offline prometheus

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Re: Cramer sonatas
Reply #3 on: October 09, 2005, 08:01:57 PM
Seven Piano Concertos? Is there a missing one? Because there is a number eight.
"As an artist you don't rake in a million marks without performing some sacrifice on the Altar of Art." -Franz Liszt

Offline universo

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Re: Cramer sonatas
Reply #4 on: October 16, 2005, 10:31:15 PM
May be, do yo know the 8 concerto for piano?
Do yo have the score or a record of it?

Could you give some more information about tune, number opus, and his sonatas for piano?
Thanks
 :)

Offline prometheus

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Re: Cramer sonatas
Reply #5 on: October 16, 2005, 11:03:00 PM
I have a recording of No.8 Concerto. It is an amazing piece.
"As an artist you don't rake in a million marks without performing some sacrifice on the Altar of Art." -Franz Liszt

Offline universo

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Re: Cramer sonatas
Reply #6 on: October 17, 2005, 05:14:43 PM
I will very happy if you try to send to me this record of the 8 concerto of Cramer.  :D

If it is possible...


Where did you find it

Could you try to send to chopinspain@hotmail.com   Any information about that will be wellcome.

Thanks for all!

Offline dinosaurtales

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Re: Cramer sonatas
Reply #7 on: October 18, 2005, 12:37:24 AM
If you are looking for the two Grand Sonatas Op 27 (I believe), I found them at the British Library.   I did a search and filled out one of their forms to buy a copy to have sent to me.  They were very prompt.  What I received was one of the first editions, however.  If you are looking for the version edited by Nicholas Temperley - The London Pianoforte School published by Garland Press, good luck.  I had no luck finding one anywhere.  Some of the volumes can be had, but I couldn't find the Cramer Sonatas. 
So much music, so little time........

Offline prometheus

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Re: Cramer sonatas
Reply #8 on: October 18, 2005, 03:16:36 PM
"As an artist you don't rake in a million marks without performing some sacrifice on the Altar of Art." -Franz Liszt

Offline universo

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Re: Cramer sonatas
Reply #9 on: October 25, 2005, 03:56:02 PM
Thank you a lot, Prometheus.

I think it is amazing to share this composition by Cramer, that is unknow for me (until now  ;))

The join between the first -2second movements are really new for that time. Dónt you think so?

Definitilly I want to know more about this composer and his works.

Thank you.


 

Offline prometheus

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Re: Cramer sonatas
Reply #10 on: October 25, 2005, 05:00:55 PM
What do you mean exactly? That he closes the first movement with solo piano?

Well, for me this is a dillemma. But it is also so historically.

Beethoven, Mozart and almost all others ended their first movements with a repeat of the tutti section but this time in the new key, the dominant. Some of them are wild and end with a big cadence on the I chord with FF and extra emphasis.

Yeah, Cramer has a quiet cadenceless solo piano ending. Very natural way to finish of a section that isn't supposed to end the piece. I have no idea why everyone else though the first movement should be rounded off and closed.

Charles Rosen wrote this on the issue:

Quote

The end of the exposition in an aria and concerto, however, has an inescapable ambiguity, which arises from the character of an inner frame: does the enterance of the tutti end the exposition, or begin the development? This is not a quibble about terminology, as there are two ways of starting the second ritornello, one of which faces forward, the other backward: it can start either with the opening theme or with the closing paragraph of the first tutti, now played at the dominant.
The former is the older tradition and gives to each of the ritornelli a symmetrical opening. Mozart uses this form in the piano concerto's only once, in K.415; otherwise, he uses the more modern form, and the tutti at this point replays either the closing themes of the first ritornello or the end of the first group (in K.459 the tutti starts, not with the first theme, but with a variant of it in the solo exposition).
To open the second ritornello with the first heme at the dominant implies a new beginning: when, on the other hand, the orchestra enters with the closing themes (the more modern technique, developed in the 1760s), it rounds off the solo expotion. In that case, however, one expects a firm cadence on the dominant. If the cadence is withheld, the ambiguity reappears; the apparent rounding-off was a new beginning after all, a beginning underlined by the change from solo to orchestral texture. We can see Mozart rounding off the exposition off in most of the concertos, and Beethoven in his first two.

Cramer does away with the second ritornello altogether. After a very symphonic first one the solo piano section ends hinting at a possible second ritornello, but it never comes and the exposition ends very open with soft piano arpeggiation. Then the development begins with the second ritornello using a totally new theme. Sounds like a good and logical solution to me. Avoids the whole problem. As far as I know, he only does this in his last piano concerto.

But in the case of Beethoven's fourth concerto, and its huge first movement, ending it off is a lot more natural then with a 7+ minute first movement, of course. And also, not every work will have the lightness of this Cramer work so some will just require a first movement ending with some sense of dramatism.
"As an artist you don't rake in a million marks without performing some sacrifice on the Altar of Art." -Franz Liszt

Offline arensky

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Re: Cramer sonatas
Reply #11 on: October 30, 2005, 05:52:17 AM
                A daguerrotype or photograph of Cramer, date unknown....


                                   
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