Concert Grands -- Better Sound or More Volume?

[alzado]

I just read a post on this forum where several persons compared small grands to full concert grands, and just ASSUMED in their replies that a larger piano produced better quality of sound than a smaller piano.  This is an unwarranted assumption!

Let me explain something to many of you -- who should know it already.

A 9-foot concert grand is necessary in a concert hall because it MUST able to produce the volume of sound  to hold its own against a full symphony orchestra. 

Take a couple of famous concertos -- the Tchaikovsky or Beethoven's Emperor.  At places in either of these the piano is ripping off full volume and the orchestra is blasting away full volume.  The sheer decibels in the concert hall during these passages would be impressive.  Only a concert grand piano has the size and AMPLITUDE to be heard.

It should not automatically be assumed that a concert grand will produce better sound quality than a smaller piano -- say a 6 footer.  Probably some will and some will not.

These are two separate questions.

And while we are at it, there is no reason -- per se -- that an amateur needs to have a concert grand in his/her living room.   Of course, if people would like one -- and concert grands are glamorous indeed -- by all means buy one.  But no one "needs" one in a salon setting.  Chopin performed in salons on upright models.

Best luck to all--

[xvimbi]

One could dispute this. Given the same overall quality of a small and a large grand, the grand will produce sound that most people would judge as "better". There are a couple of reasons whay that is. First, as you said, the larger instrument can play louder, so it has a larger dynamic range, which means that there are more possibilities for dynamics. This does not necessarily mean "better" sound, but it should  not be neglected. Second, the sound is richer on larger pianos, i.e. there is a larger content of higher harmonics in the sound. This is usually perceived as more pleasant, that is "better". Of course, it may be more difficult to play something very crisply, but that is a matter of control and independent of the piano. Third, sound decay is slower on large instruments. So, overall, a large instrument offers much more room for sound production; it allows subtle variations that a small instrument can't provide, while being able of doing everything that a small instrument can do. Thus, in the hands of a master, the large instrument will produce a "better" sound.

[iumonito]

First, bigger is not always louder.  A bose imperial is much bigger than a Mason BB, but if you are playing two piano music with them the Mason will sound louder.

Second, there is a simple reason why the sound of the larger piano is better as a rule of thumb: the speaking length of the string is longer, which allows it to be thiner, which in turn cases the vibration to be more uniform and have less distortion.

To get a low a in, e.g., a stinking upright, you need a really fat bordone.  In a 9 footer the same sound is produced by a much longer and thinner string.  Piano strings vibrate both like tubes (kind of in spirals) and like rope (up and down).  The fater the string, the less it can vibrate like a rope and the more it vibrates like a tube.  The vertical vibration produces a cleaner sound (although a bit of lateral vibration is desirable because it stimulates vibration by simpathy in other strings, which results in a nice and warm sound).

See, Timmy, that's why pianos are so long.

[zheer]

I have played on a 9foot Bosendoffer grand and a 6foot kAWAI, to my suprise the KAWAI had better quality sound and performability, though the Bosendoffer had greater volume the KAWAI was greater in quality.

[Waldszenen]

Any experienced Steinway salesman will tell you that as the size increases, volume increases not tone quality (unless it's a baby grand to a medium grand - that's when the tone changes somewhat).

[alzado]

I'm glad I posted this.  I believe the question is interesting.

I was very interested in the replies thus far, and I believe I have learned a few things.

One objection--  Xvmbi writes, "given the same overall quality of a small and a large grand."   

That was partly my point.  I am not talking about a 6-foot range Steinway versus a concert grand Steinway.   In other words, I am NOT talking comparable "elite" brands.

Let's compare a less expensive brand of concert grand versus a 6-foot (approx.) piano by one of the very expensive and premium manufacturers.   That was my point -- more comes into play here.  One dare not just blandly assume that big pianos will sound better.

A concert grand was not made 9 feet long to sweeten sound quality, but to stand against a full orchestra, and to fill a large auditorium with sound.   It other words, the sine qui non here is the volume of sound, not the sweetness.

The postings I was objecting to -- and to which I referred -- were just blandly assuming in a categorical way that sound quality is "naturally" better in a concert grand.

My point -- these are truly two separate issues.   It is on a case by case -- and brand by brand -- basis. 

We also need to consider manufacturing variations, especially for pianos built before modern materials engineering.  One concert grand produced in a different decade may vary in sound quality from another by the same manufacturer. 

[andrewrance]

I don't think size is primarily about volume.   I read somewhere that according to rules of acoustics, the mathematically correct length of a bottom A string should be around 22 feet!  Bass strings are wound to enable them to get the correct pitch in a managable length (don't ask me how or why this works!).  The longer the bass string, the better the depth of tone.   I think you'll find that a 9 foot concert grand doesn't actually produce much more volume of sound than a six footer.  Any physicists out there?

[leahcim]

I don't think size is primarily about volume.

Yeah, there's something here on the length of string v the accuracy of the harmonic overtones generated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_acoustics

[gfiore]

 Yes a concert grand can produce a bit more volume than say a 6 foot grand, depending on how it's voiced. What is being overlooked is the fact that the longer bass strings of a concert grand (up to 23 inches longer) can deliver a more refined bass tone containing much more of the fundamental tone, as opposed to the higher partials, than a 6 foot grand can.
  The comparison ends there though, as a concert grand and a 6 foot grand have pretty much identical treble string lengths from notes C3 to C8. Below C3 the concert grands strings get increasingly longer.
 

[alzado]

I have done some homework searching the internet for some resolution to this question.

It appears that the concert grand DOES produce better quality of sound, due to the string length (and design) and also, due to a larger soundboard.

Some sites do indicate that a concert grand will produce greater amplitude of sound due to the larger soundboard.

When you think of it, the area of a soundboard is an algebraic function, increasing by the square of the dimensions.  Thus the soundboard of a 9-foot piano will be much greater than that of a 6-foot piano.  Possibly double the area.

One quotation I did find goes as follows:  "This size piano (9-foot grand) is used in most concert halls. A large room is needed for a concert grand piano because of the large size & volume of sound." [Emphasis mine.]  Ref is-- 

https://www.completepiano.com/SalesDept/GrandPianos.asp

It appears I was wrong in that -- given the physics associated with longer strings -- the concert grand should be capable of better sound.

I am still intrigued by one comment in the discussion -- somewhere -- to the effect that this person liked the scale design better in the mid-sized grands.

Search the internet as you will, it does not appear there are any quantitative measures of the sound amplitude across sizes and brands of grands.

Might be a good Master's Thesis for someone.

Thanks to all who posted--

[Axtremus]

Search the internet as you will, it does not appear there are any quantitative measures of the sound amplitude across sizes and brands of grands.

Exactly! It doesn't look like any one care to publish any quantitative measurements of piano tone under controlled conditions.