Is it me?

[2naomi]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if I could get some feedback on my piano studies.  I'm an adult returning to the piano after a 20-year hiatus of not playing at all.  I took lessons from age 7 to 15 from what I now know to be a very bad teacher.  The result was that in 8 years I never got beyond the level of Two-Part Inventions and I learned many bad habits.  So, at the beginning of this year I decided to start again, with the help of Chang's book, Bernhard and others on this forum, and a new teacher that was recommended to me by a highly regarded organist.  All should be well, right?  Here's my problem:

So far since I started, these are the pieces, in order, that I have worked on:  Invention #1, Scarlatti #148, Beethoven 49/2 1st mov., Moonlight 1st mov., Consolation #3, Partita #2 sinfonia.  Not one of these pieces can I sit down and play, with or without music, at performance level.  I have no repertoire.  I can play some jazz tunes, and improvise a little, but that's it.  Every minute of my practice time (0-3 hrs a day) is devoted to trying to play right notes.  I have been using the Bernhard / Chang Method, but I picked that up here, not from my teacher.  She only wants to hear HT, at or close to speed (as did my childhood teacher) so I just go there every week and stumble through.

So, is it me?  Do I need to practice more efficiently, be more patient, are my expectations of myself to high?  Is it my teacher?  Is she pushing me too hard too fast, overestimating my ability?  Or, is this just how it is when you start?

Any advice welcome.

[m1469]

Well, what kind of feedback are you getting when you play your pieces for your teacher ?  If you have "fumbled through" something there, do you spend time actually practicing there in the lesson ?  Or do you get practice tips in some other way at your lesson ?  What happens ?



m1469 

[xvimbi]

Great that you decided to get back into playing the piano.

There are two reasons (at least) why one would play pieces. One is to build up technique, in which case it is forgivable to not bring them to performance level. The other one is indeed to build up repertoire. It looks to me as if you are tackling pieces that are a bit too difficult at the moment. Perhaps, it would be a good idea to take a step back, tackle easier, but still satisfying pieces. You will be able to work through them faster, and they will build up your confidence as well as you are able to actually perform them. So, for example, instead of Consolation No. 3, start out with No. 1.

However, it may also be time to ask your teacher to adapt her style to your situation. One can work on a whole piece in chunks, HS, very slowly, and in the end, it all comes together (that's I think the method you are referring to), or work on 5 measures a week and try to bring them up to speed and build the piece this way. I personally prefer the first method, and so do you apparently. Try to convince your teacher that this is the way you learn more efficiently and that you will be less frustrated doing that (provided that is actually the case). She should not have a problem with that.

Hope that helps.

[alzado]

2naomi--

I am not even in the shadow of persons such as Bernhard, but I will supply a comment or two.

I am comparable as an older person we went back to piano about 1-1/2 years ago.

It seems that progress in piano is the way a child grows--  one year they hardly seem to get taller, then a year later they grow 1-1/2 inches almost overnight.

As for "performance speed," I have read other comments on this board suggesting that playing "up to speed" is not always necessary.  

Sometimes I hear professional recordings and very much dislike the tempo the pianist has chosen.  For Satie's Gymnopedies, I invariably play them FASTER than the recordings because when played at a snail's pace they sound like a requium.

More on so-called "performance speed."  Sometimes transcriptions are made for pieces originally written for an orchestra or string ensemble.  I am amazed that Pachelbel's Canon in D, written for a suite of strings, is played adagio in the original score, but at "double time" in many of the piano recordings.  In this case, performance speed is musically irresponsible.  There's a lot of "show off" in recordings by piano virtuosos.

As far as hunting for notes goes, usually this is at the learning stage.  If you can learn to find keys by touch, without looking at your fingers, especially in the octaves above and below middle C, you can read music off of the page without some of the hesitations you now experience.

I don't memorize anything.  That may not be good, but it has not been a problem for me.

Try something fun and unusual.  My last music lesson, I played as one selection some old sheet music I found in an antique store.  As an adult student, I sometimes just bring something and play it.  I also play classical pieces on which my teacher and I have agreed.

Some of the selections you say you now play are very beautiful pieces.  With the Moonlight Sonata, do you have difficulty with the right-hand runs?  I had to memorize these to get them up to speed.  There's a simple pattern to them.  

I will be interested to see what other advice you may receive with this thread--

Good luck-- keep going --

[2naomi]

m1469:

By fumble I mean I play with a lot of wrong notes, she has me stop and correct each one.  My accuracy is appalling because I have a bad habit of looking at my hands, which I'm only permitted to do minimally in lesson (one of my original goals was to sight read fluently.)  Most of her feedback is regarding dynamics, expression, rhythm, and hand and wrist relaxation, which I find almost impossible to focus on because I'm trying so hard to not make mistakes.  Practice tips I get here.  I think her conclusion is that I don't practice enough, which could well be the case.

xvimbi:
I'll try that...the first method is what I prefer too, and the second method is exactly what I have been doing.  Also, I'll get some easier pieces, that Partita is killing me.

[2naomi]

It seems that progress in piano is the way a child grows--  one year they hardly seem to get taller, then a year later they grow 1-1/2 inches almost overnight.

...
As far as hunting for notes goes, usually this is at the learning stage.  If you can learn to find keys by touch, without looking at your fingers, especially in the octaves above and below middle C, you can read music off of the page without some of the hesitations you now experience.
...

Some of the selections you say you now play are very beautiful pieces.  With the Moonlight Sonata, do you have difficulty with the right-hand runs?  I had to memorize these to get them up to speed.  There's a simple pattern to them.  


Good luck-- keep going --

Thanks for the encouragement alzado!

I have difficulty getting the melody to stand out in the Moonlight and have inaccurate octaves in some spots.  Also it's hard to read the leger lines!  But that's nothing compared to the 4 against 3 phrases in the Consolation...my right hand just refuses to play through them evenly.  I cycle through them so much in practice that I start to get mesmerized.  But I can't get them to stop swinging.

[leahcim]

By fumble I mean I play with a lot of wrong notes, she has me stop and correct each one.  My accuracy is appalling because I have a bad habit of looking at my hands, which I'm only permitted to do minimally in lesson

<insert usual caveats about not being a teacher / expert / Bernhard etc here>

Mebbe that's one problem - If you're looking at your hands when practising you're not going to be able to not when you're at your lesson?

Most of her feedback is regarding dynamics, expression, rhythm, and hand and wrist relaxation, which I find almost impossible to focus on because I'm trying so hard to not make mistakes.

We've had comments about playing too much of a piece for practice and playing too difficult pieces, I think there's another aspect to that as well - trying to play every aspect of a piece "perfectly" all at once. That is probably as difficult as trying to practise by playing the entire piece front front to back - at least until things like playing relaxed, or finding notes without looking are 2nd nature.

[m1469]

m1469:

By fumble I mean I play with a lot of wrong notes, she has me stop and correct each one.  My accuracy is appalling because I have a bad habit of looking at my hands, which I'm only permitted to do minimally in lesson (one of my original goals was to sight read fluently.)  Most of her feedback is regarding dynamics, expression, rhythm, and hand and wrist relaxation, which I find almost impossible to focus on because I'm trying so hard to not make mistakes.  Practice tips I get here.  I think her conclusion is that I don't practice enough, which could well be the case.

Well, as you know there are many practice tips and so on here on the forum.  The fact that you mentioned that you are already getting them here on the forum, and have recieved great responses from other people in this thread, means that I do not need to try to go over them myself in this post.  You will find everything along those lines by continuing the reading and experimenting that you are already doing.  My main concern is to address your thoughts and feelings regarding the title of this thread.

In my opinion, I find it nearly comical when a student is expected to practice more but suggestions on how to go about that are not actually provided in the discourse of the lessons.  I would venture to say that all of the things she has you working on in your lessons are no doubt important to the music, but they are obviously not addressing your main concerns along the lines of accuracey and so on.  It also seems to me that you have personal goals and aims in your piano studies which have little mutual awareness to back them up between you and your teacher.  Have you expressed yourself to your teacher ?  Does she know what you are wanting ? 

In that sense, it is indeed up to you to help your teacher know what you are wanting.  But, then, it is the teacher's responsibility to help you reach those things and/or guide you in ways that will fulfill your musical potential.

I wish you well, and congratulations on returning to the piano.  Also, welcome to the forum.


m1469 

[omnisis]

Hitting the right notes is really only the surface of correct playing.  If it is so much trouble to play the right notes then you are most likely playing material that is too challenging for you.  You said you ended your early piano career with the inventions but then you started back with an invention as your first piece?  I am note sure this makes sense.  It seems you should have started back a little below where you ended off 20 years previous.

I am an adult beginner as well, though I started from scratch and when I went to my teacher (after working by myself for awhile), she started me below where I though I should have been.  A lot of people on here will tell you to start out by playing whatever you want (within reason) but I disagree.  To get the musical and articulative aspects of the pieces you are playing correct you have to start with pieces that are easy to play and introduce the concepts gradually.  This will also give you more confidence as well.

As an adult you can be very articulate and observant about what your own strengths and weaknesses are.  Sit down with your teacher and analyse these.  Do you have trouble with rapid changes in hand position?, octaves?, trills?, stacato vs. legato?, dynamics?, rhythms or cross rhythms?.  What seems to be holding you back the most?

If you are having trouble with the notes or ledger lines notes you need to fix that right way.  Start using flashcards or pieces that have the ledger lines in them but aren't textually difficult (look into getting an anthology of "easy piano" music for this).

Remember only you can make you better.  Your piano teacher can provide advice and direction but you need to take an active part in your own studies or otherwise you are back at the same stage you were when you were a child and quit lessons.  I would also whole-heartedly recommend the book "Super Sightreading Secrets" for helping with your note playing and the book "Making music at the piano: learning strategies for adult students" both available thru amazon.


Have fun and best of luck,

~omnisis

[sharon_f]

Returning to the piano after a long absence can be daunting. I felt a lot of what you did when I went back last year.

First I thought it would be a lot easier to get back to where I left off 35 years ago. I thought I would have a lot more time to practice than I actually did. (As an adult, things like work and family obligations sometimes get in the way.)

I was lucky enough to have a very good, highly respected teacher in the area take me on as a student. When I started with her I was very clear with my goals. I told her I wanted to work on scales and arpeggios in addition to pieces. I told her that my goal was to push my technique forward. I wanted to know how good I could have been if I had not stopped years before.

I started with some easier Bach and Chopin and then worked on some Brahms. We worked through some Dohnanyi exercises. (I actually bought the book and brought it in and she picked out a few exercises that she thought would be relevant.) I asked her about the value of Hanon and she said I could work on it if I wanted at home but she showed me how she would like me to practice it.

We do very little HS at my lesson except if she wants to show me a specific movement.  I do a lot of just "playing". If I hit a wrong note she let's me know. (She's not so much concerned that I hit a wrong note, she's more concerned that I don't read a note incorrectly.) She focuses on things like tone, voicing, phrasing. She is teaching me to really listen.

Over the course of the past year we moved onto Beethoven and some more difficult Brahms and Chopin. At one point she had me working on Cramer studies. There are some pieces I haven't gotten up to the speed I'd like to play them at but she'll just say "Oh you'll come back to that in another year and play it at a whole other level."

Sometimes I'll go to a lesson and play the same piece worse than I did the week before. Sometimes I surprise myself and sometimes I embarass myself.

But I realize it takes time. And focus and concentration. My teacher has told me that most of her students make most of their progress in the second and third year with her. I have a good relationship with her. I trust her.

Many times I ask myself the same question you did, "Is it me?" I don't know. But then there are those moments when I'll play something really well and I'll marvel to myself that I can create such beauty and I'll think "it is me."

[rc]

Here's something I've seen touched on: You're relation with your teacher.

You come in with the implied distinction between yourself and your teacher. Me OR my teacher. I'm here, she's there.

I would agree that the pieces you're working on are too challenging too soon, but I see that as a symptom of miscommunication. It's better to see the teacher/student relationship more as a team; we are here. That way you work together. Take initiative, your teacher won't know what's amiss unless you say something. There have been certain lessons where I've had to stop things and say "hey, we gotta figure something out, this ain't working". Be completely honest, even if it might upset her (does your teacher know you do your own research on the net?).

If your teacher is a decent human being, you'll both be very relieved to have cleared the air and you'll see things start running smoothly.

On the student end of things, I always try to have something ready to work on during lessons. Ideally I'll have all the notes under my fingers so we can work on the music/correct any mistakes/make whatever improvements are to be made to get the piece sounding as good as possible (which implies all the pieces aren't so hard that it'll take me 7 months to reach that stage, I don't mind working on one too-hard piece with easier stuff as well). If I don't have the notes under the fingers, I'll have something else ready; technical questions, theory questions, interpretation questions... Once in a while I simply wasn't able to practice much that week, so I just go "sorry, been a crappy week" and do my best to keep things moving during the lesson.

...I hope this helps!

[asyncopated]

Just a comment of what I regard as fundmental.  Basically how you view/want your relationship with your teacher to be.

For me, I don't expect my teacher to "drag me along" with regards to technique and practice.  What I do want, which she does exceedingly well, it a trained pair of ears to assess my playing, in terms of quality and musicality. 

I do a lot of work on my know, trying to find different ways to practice and techniques and ask her only if I have a question.  In other words, the way I do it is that I take a proactive role and I personally think this is the best way to develop as a pianist since everybody has a slightly different style/way of doing things.  I have to find what is best for me. 

I believe that many teachers at a more advanced level adopt this style.  They expect the student to have or at least work on their own on the more banal stuff, and give input where it is really valuable.  (For young students, this style is probably not appropriate.)

As for playing wrong notes.  I have been told by a good friend who did her masters in piano performance not to be afraid of wrong notes.  Instead, try to find out what is wrong.  So far, I've encounted two major causes of wrong notes. 

The first is that the hand/brain is confused/unfamiliar and does not know what to do.  This is the reason why we should stick to one fingering -- the one that is the most comfortable for you.  This will also improve with time when you get more familiar with the keyboard.  For example, a few months back I remember thinking that the black keys feel very small.  Now, I don't think they are small anymore.

The second is reason is an unstable hand.   There are two possiblities here as well, one is that the static position of your hand is not as comfortable as as it should be.  I.e. when you play set of notes, say c d e.  of the c major scale, the hand does not move laterally.  This is what i mean by the static position.  You then switch, with the TO/TU technique to the next position to play f g a b.  If in the first place, your static position is not comfortable, you are more likely to miss notes.  The second is has to do with the switch itself.  You have to get your movement correct, fluid, and comfortable.  Too much accelaration will cause your hand to jerk when you move from one position to another.  When it does, you are much more likely to play wrong notes, as you do not land comfortably in the next position.

I have been concentrating on these two things as well as sound and I am slowly getting better with accuracy and consistency. 

The last thing (I consider more advanced, I don't know if you have this problem), that I have discussed quite alot with my teacher and she understands, does not have to do with wrong notes per se, but wrong sounds.  That is, I don't have good control over the dynamics and the sensitivity of touch in response to the enviroment .  This has a lot to do with the physical problem of playing on a different piano in a different space. 

Basically, I normally practice on a small german upright (seiler) in a small room  and my teacher has a german grand (ibach) in herhall.  The action is different, the touch is differnt and the requirements for projecting the sound is different.  I did start by complaining.  But now I am a firm believer that a good pianist must learn to adapt himself to the instrument and surroundings, which goes back to technical issues -- learning with a robust technque for all environments and fine tuning it to get a consistent (best possible) sound, under any circumstances.  I still find this very challenging.

al.

[2naomi]

I'm so glad I posted here because all of your insights and stories have been really enlightening.  Everybody has been posting great ideas, and I'm going to try all of them, brainstorm with my teacher, and let you know how things pan out.  Thank you....and anyone who wants to add on, please do!