Alternative Fingering for D Major?

[steve jones]

I find the standard right hand fingering for D Major somewhat tricky. The first 1-2-3 / 1-2-3 are fine, but the '4' seems difficult, as if Im having to stretch for it.

Problem is, Im unsure how best to deal with this. Should I move my hand into the piano? And if so, should I bring my other fingers in too (as if I were playing a chord)? This is certainly an option as it does solve the problem. However, this create the problem of extracting my fingers from between the black notes when shifting to the next position.

Or would I be better using a more 'naturally'comfortable fingering, such as:

1-2-3-4 / 1-2-3

I guess this is were a good teacher would probably see me right, but unfortunately mine isnt up to much when it comes to the finer details.

Thanks!

[xvimbi]

Check out https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg28311.html#msg28311 and the rest of that thread.

[steve jones]

Yeh, thats pretty much what I figured. For example, I use that fingering for F Major usually.

He lost me a bit though, when the says its better for '4' to cop a black note. I find it much easier for '3' to get the black note when its whites either side.

I dont know if this is evidence of some serious flaw in my technique, but Im thinking that the RH 1234/123 fingering is FAR better for D Major.

[steve jones]

Actually, Iv just gone through some RH scales - the 1234/123 suits me much better for D, A, E and maybe G Major scales. I find with this fingering my hand can just glide over the keys without hardly moving. With the 123/1234 Im always moving my hand in and out of the keyboard to and as a result catching my other fingers between keys.

Wow, Im really smitten with this new fingering, excellent!

[xvimbi]

If it works for you, stick with it. However, I think that moving in and out of the keyboard is in fact a good and highly desirable activity. For D major, 123/1234 works very well if you pivot forward on 3, thus gliding easily onto 4. Do not reach! The notion of fixed wrists and static hands is flawed IMO. OK, let's just say, it's not what I feel comfortable with. If one doesn't move in and out of the keyboard, one has to compensate for the different length of the fingers by curling them to varying degrees, which I find terrible.

[steve jones]

Hmmm, yeah I figured there might be some draw back of avoiding such a motion. If this motion is something that needs to be learned, then I can see why the standard fingering might be more appropriate.

Im looking at it simply from an 'economy of motion' point of view. For me atleast, keeping the hand static makes these scales far more economical. I shall have a play about and seeing which I find better in the long run.

Thanks again xvimbi

[xvimbi]

Im looking at it simply from an 'economy of motion' point of view. For me atleast, keeping the hand static makes these scales far more economical. I shall have a play about and seeing which I find better in the long run.

What does "economy of motion" mean to you? Does it mean "least amount of visible movement". If so, I don't agree. Economy of motion, to me, is expending the least amount of energy for achieving the largest possible effect while conforming with the physical boundaries imposed by the keyboard and the human playing apparatus. It does not have anything to do with the outside appearance of movement. There might be an aesthetic aspect, but the pianistic goal supersedes everything else.

A large, visible motion could be much more "economical" than a small motion. Is it better to play a loud chord using gravity drop with a large sweeping motion, or is it better to play the same chord by tensing up the entire body and then throwing a small but extremely fast punch at the keys?

[steve jones]

I understand, yes. Although I had never thought about it quite like that before. I usually look for the most comfortable way of playing, and usually this works out to appear the smaller motion.

But with regard to this scale business...

I really wish I could demostrate what I mean on this one, as its so difficult to explain in words. Basically, Im playing the scale using little more than weight of my arm plus rotation of the forearm / wrist. This seems comfortable, and appears economical. I use the TO technique to move between position.

When using 123/1234, a pivot is required (as you mentioned) to reach black notes with '4'. I find this not only more effort, but also far less aesthetically pleasing. It seems like an unnecessary movement to me - its far easier to simply alter the fingering slightly and have the scale fit the hand perfectly. Infact, I have altered the fingering on several tricky scale runs - guess what, they arent tricky anymore!

Or maybe my hands are just deformed?  I have no idea.

The reason I even ask this question, is that Im unsure whether this method may prove to limit my technical capabilities in the long run. At the moment Im still a student, and forging my technical preferences. Funnily enough, I use this pivot motion in arpeggios all the time. But it seems completely unnecessary in scales - I dont see any reason for such a significant motion.

Not saying the entire piano world is wrong - I just havent discovered yet the benefits of this fingering (quite the opposite infact).

[xvimbi]

Without seeing you play, there is probably no way to evaluate exactly what you are doing. However, again, if it feels comfortable to you, then it's probably alright. Furthermore, there is no strict fingering for scales, anyway; There is standardized fingering only for the sake of playing scales, but the fingering changes all the time depending on the context and has to be adapted to what precedes a scale fragment and what come after it in a real piece. So, keep doing what you are doing already: exploring and figuring out what works well for you.

[steve jones]

Will do, and thanks for the advice! Always good to get the goss from those in the know 

Do you think when Im famous kids will try copy my 1234/123 fingering?