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Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me! (Read 12841 times)

Offline gaer

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #50 on: October 21, 2005, 08:16:42 PM »
I don't know what edition.  I was wondering myself.  I got it from www.sheetmusicarchive.net

so it's public domain.  I've noticed some weird notes. I wonder if anyone has a link to another version/edition of this piece online.  I don't have much music in the form of books for the piano.
This is the danger of using music that does not give its source. There is always controversy about which edition is best, and I certainly would not recommend any as THE edition. You can learn something from each one, although, for the reasons I gave, Joseffy is someone I can't stand. His changes mislead me.
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I noticed that a lot of notes are broken up (octaves) which I've never heard in the recordings that I've heard of pro-pianists playing.
Yes, and there is at least one other place that is marked with the "roll" (arpeggio) sign, the wavy line, which is clearly added. And when I find an extra note inserted in the final chord, I think that's pretty bad!
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  Thanks for looking at the music.  You're quite the authority on this.
Not at all. I've taught it two or three times, and I had to work out the rough spots for students. But last night I recorded it, and to be honest, I don't feel at all good about the result. In fact, at the moment I wish I could get help. The notes are no problem for me, but everything I did either sounds too stiff or too unsteady, too even (no climaxes) or too overstated—exaggerated.

I think this is a very hard piece to play well!

Gary

Offline _tyro

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #51 on: October 21, 2005, 10:26:24 PM »
Yes this piece is hard to play as real  music. My first plan is to see if the local music store has the Polish ("Paderewski") edition.  They usually seem at least to get the notes right, and I find the fingering useful -- you get the idea of what is supposed to be emphasized, what is supposed to be *really* delicate, etc.-- although it sometimes doesn't seem to fit my hands very well.  On which subject: is it just my age (probably older than all the rest of you put together)??? Joseffy doesn't tie my hands in knots at all.  I, too, find some of his phrasing suspect.  But back to my first question -- why does everyone play this piece as if it's two half notes to the measure?  Has anyone seen an edition that writes it this way?

Offline gaer

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #52 on: October 22, 2005, 12:06:57 AM »
http://www.piano.ru/scores/chopin/chopin-noc-02.pdf

This is a about 32 pages of Chopin Nocturnes.  The Op. 72 #1 is on Pages 30 to 32.

Another edition.  Might conform more to the "standard" that Gaer talks about. 

I'm going to look at both editions and pick out the best parts of both.  The fingerings are also much different.

Hopefully this helps us learn this piece on our own here.

I wonder if Ada had her lesson and got in trouble for learning something different.
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,13397.0.html

I just uploaded a recording I made last night. It has been many years since I've heard this played by anyone, so I'll be curious to find out if I played it about the same speed as most other recordings or a bit slower.

I took a look at the file. Yes, this is much more standard. (There are some differences in phrasing, but this could be the result of different sources. You just never know for sure.)

However, some of the fingering shown would tie my hands into knots. For one thing, it switches fingers on notes, and I almost never do that.  And in measure 37, I release the both half notes that are stemmed down in the RH as soon as the pedal catches and use 3 and 2 for both trills.

And the edition you linked to shows the fingering 1234, 123, 12345 (octave), which is great for me, but the Palmer shows 234, 345, 34, 345. which is just plain useless.

That's why it's so good to have at least two editions AND a teacher to help you with fingering. :)

Gary

Offline violinist

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #53 on: October 22, 2005, 12:35:12 AM »
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,13397.0.html

I just uploaded a recording I made last night. It has been many years since I've heard this played by anyone, so I'll be curious to find out if I played it about the same speed as most other recordings or a bit slower.


Who needs to listen to another recording when we got Gary's recording!  Woww!
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Offline violinist

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #54 on: October 22, 2005, 12:38:15 AM »
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,13397.0.html

That's why it's so good to have at least two editions AND a teacher to help you with fingering. :)

Gary

I've started using the second edition that I found on the internet and comparing fingerings.  I actually really follow what you are saying about the fingerings... scary.  I feel like a pianist!  And I was just looking at the fingerings of that chromatic scale.  I'm going to mostly stick with the first version that I found on the web.  Since it deviates from the norm.  But that's not so bad.  I still like it!  Maybe I'll look into that last note issue.  I haven't gotten that far yet.

I think for tonight.... I'm going to post  what I've done so far to the "third page" with all those embellishments.  I'm going to redeem myself from the previous posting of the "third page"  I have been working on it!
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Offline violinist

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #55 on: October 22, 2005, 12:40:47 AM »

  And in measure 37, I release the both half notes that are stemmed down in the RH as soon as the pedal catches and use 3 and 2 for both trills.

Gary

I hold the bottom note down (I realize that I'm not supposed to repeat one of those base notes... - you'll see later in my next recording.. maybe in an hour or so).  And then I use 3 and 4 for both trills.  Works for me!  I'm a rebel!
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Offline violinist

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #56 on: October 22, 2005, 04:15:56 AM »
I posted in the audition room my newest rendition of the third page of the Nocturne.  It's bolder, faster, and probably with more wrong notes. 

I think I've had enough for Friday.

I'm going piano shopping tomorrow (not for me).

My friend says that she could talk to Larry Fine for $50.  really?
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Offline violinist

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #57 on: October 22, 2005, 06:15:50 PM »
This nocturne is like a drug.  I'm addicted.  I can't get away.  Now I'm late meeting my friends to go piano shopping. 

It's a drug... just say NO!!!  I can't.. I'm hooked.
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Offline ada

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #58 on: October 23, 2005, 05:54:33 AM »
http://www.piano.ru/scores/chopin/chopin-noc-02.pdf

I wonder if Ada had her lesson and got in trouble for learning something different.

Ha! Missed my lesson because it was rescheduled from earlier (my fault) and my teacher called just beforehand to say he couldn't do it.

So another week  before I'm in the doghouse.

But I don't care! He will melt when he hears how exquisitely I play it ;)

Thanks to your version of page 2 violinist I am now through it and thanks to gaer (thank you so much!!!!)  I am up to the trills on page 3.

ciao for now

Bach almost persuades me to be a Christian.
- Roger Fry, quoted in Virginia Woolf

Offline violinist

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #59 on: October 25, 2005, 12:15:35 AM »
I'm going to finally learn that last page today.

My goal is to then have this thing memorized in two weeks.  Sigh... don't know if it's possible.  But I did something like this with the Debussy Arabesque.  It's really rewarding for me to have something memorized.  I feel like I "own it."

So far my repertoire in my almost 3 months of coming back to piano:

Bach invention #1
Debussy Arabesque #1.

I have both of them memorized.  Pretty limited repertoire huh?  well.. I'll get it growing.  Anybody else think it's good to have these pieces memorized, as I go?
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Offline ada

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #60 on: October 27, 2005, 05:29:43 AM »
Well I had a lesson last night and played the nocturne (well, the first two pages) and my teacher recognised it immediately and said it's one of his favourites. And he's given me the go-ahead to learn it provided I drop one of my others.

But he pulled out his Urtext version of it and totally picked holes in the version I downloaded. He reckons the dynamics are all wrong, plus weird fingering (which has already been mentioned here). He's also found some missing ties. I can't go into it in detail right now as I don't have it with me but if anyone's interested I can provide a breakdown of the amendments he made.

onwards
ada
Bach almost persuades me to be a Christian.
- Roger Fry, quoted in Virginia Woolf

Offline violinist

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #61 on: October 28, 2005, 04:59:58 AM »
Your teacher had the music with him? he must lug around a whole ton of music.  I'm stuck using this edition.... it was free.  I'm cheap.  and I don't have a teacher. I downloaded another edition which I provided the link to somewhere above in this thread.  Many things are different... but in the end... it will be the "violinist" edition!

You must be working on a ton of stuff. What else are you working on?

I'm working on some Czerny exercises (dexterity art or something like that), and working on polishing the Debussy Arabesque.  Other than that I'm working on a Mozart concerto for the violin.  A piece I played when I was in about 12.  But it's worth revisiting.
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Offline violinist

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #62 on: October 28, 2005, 05:01:19 AM »
I'm interested in the missing ties in the music we first downloaded.  I don't want to be playing those wrong.

Did he mention the extra note in the last chord?
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Offline ada

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #63 on: October 28, 2005, 05:34:00 AM »
No no silly sausage! I go to to my teacher's studio for lessons, he doesn't come to me lugging around a bookcase full of sheet music ;D

I'm at work now but I promise I'll give you the details of the amendments he suggested next chance.

Am working on Bach inventions 1, 4 and 7; Chopin valse in b minor; a Beethoven sonata (I forget the number, I think it's 14/2? does that sound right?) Claire de Lune and one of Schubert's sentimental waltzes.


cheers
ada
Bach almost persuades me to be a Christian.
- Roger Fry, quoted in Virginia Woolf

Offline ada

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #64 on: October 28, 2005, 05:35:35 AM »
Did he mention the extra note in the last chord?

Ah that'll be the one that should have been tied, I think...
Bach almost persuades me to be a Christian.
- Roger Fry, quoted in Virginia Woolf

Offline ada

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #65 on: October 28, 2005, 05:41:07 AM »
Sorry, me again. You're a surgeon, right violinist? Check this out:

Bach almost persuades me to be a Christian.
- Roger Fry, quoted in Virginia Woolf

Offline violinist

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #66 on: October 28, 2005, 02:42:08 PM »
No no silly sausage! I go to to my teacher's studio for lessons, he doesn't come to me lugging around a bookcase full of sheet music ;D

I'm at work now but I promise I'll give you the details of the amendments he suggested next chance.

Am working on Bach inventions 1, 4 and 7; Chopin valse in b minor; a Beethoven sonata (I forget the number, I think it's 14/2? does that sound right?) Claire de Lune and one of Schubert's sentimental waltzes.

cheers
ada

That's a huge amount of stuff!  Great stuff.  I want to play the last movement of the Beethoven Tempest sometime soon.  A goal of mine!  I don't know the Beethoven sonata numbers.  I play Bach's invention #1! 

- Silly Sausage
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Offline violinist

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #67 on: October 28, 2005, 02:52:36 PM »
Sorry, me again. You're a surgeon, right violinist? Check this out:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1395891.htm

Non piano post... or I don't think it's piano related.

What a complex ethical problem you bring up with Body integrity identity disorder.  I have heard of this problem, but I have never been faced with an actual patient with this problem.  I have performed many amputations, but always for life saving reasons.  I have also heard that there are sexual fantasies related to amputations, and I've also heard of patients freezing their leg in a block of ice in an attempt to break their legs.

This body integrity disorder also applies to people who want colostomies for no physiological medical reason.  I've only heard of these patients, so far I haven't been faced with this.  The closest I've come to this is patients who want their "normal" breasts removed because a close relative had breast cancer.  I've actually sent them on to see other surgeons.  They seem to have a better reason than those with BIID, but it is a normal organ - but the medical reasoning is to prevent breast cancer.  My problem with this is that it doesn't 100% prevent breast cancer.  I send these patients on to see other surgeons for their surgeries. 

Nice article Ada!  You are famous!
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Offline violinist

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #68 on: October 28, 2005, 02:59:06 PM »
Sorry, me again. You're a surgeon, right violinist? Check this out:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1395891.htm

Here's something I co-wrote:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14981469&query_hl=1

just read the abstract.  Nothing as nice as that ABC article!

And..

While we are on links... I found this russian web page with .mp3's for piano too!
http://nlib.org.ua/parts/mp3sound1.html

There's the nocturne in there too!

Practice!

Offline ada

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #69 on: October 28, 2005, 11:58:19 PM »
Ha! next time I'm doing something on aortic endografting remind me to ring you for a comment! (I use pubmed all the time, it's a great resource).

Anyhow I've taken this thread off topic...back to Chopin.

Here are the amendments I mentioned:

bar 1: phrase break between triplets

bar 10: no roll

bars 20,21,22: remove dynamics

bar 26: no roll; B in chord is a minim, not a semib.

bar 30: no cresc

bar 34: no accent on E

36: get rid of crushed C#

37: get rid of D

46: no roll; no E

50: no roll

54: ditto

57, 58: delete dynamics

last E in second last bar is tied with E in last bar




Bach almost persuades me to be a Christian.
- Roger Fry, quoted in Virginia Woolf

Offline cfortunato

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #70 on: October 29, 2005, 01:57:39 PM »
It's an interesting piece, and I may give it a try, since I really know no Chopin, and I've been aware of the hole in my repertoire for some time now.

Just looking at the music the piece seems to get hard, although it doesn't start that way.

One thing I find interesting is that the left hand arpeggios that make up the bass are really good exercise - big stretches with unusual fingering being necessary to play them at all.

I also find the rhythm pretty rough - triplets with one hand and straight 8th notes with the other is something that gives me fits, and requires me to learn one hand at a time.  I wonder if there's some trick to make it easier.

Offline violinist

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #71 on: October 29, 2005, 11:05:01 PM »
Cfortunato! Welcome to Chopin!  It's a addictive piece.  I can't stop playing it (when I can get the time).  The third page is the hardest (from the original download of the pdf file).  It's got runs.  The left hand is definitely a great exercise.  I keep missing notes.  There's a other editions with different fingerings.  Try them all!  I use the one's of the original pdf I posted (the first pdf file ... not the second one I posted on this thread).  It works for me.  Those 8th notes and triplets... it's a trip!  I love it ... it's a bit hard to get down.  but you will when the speed gets up to speed.
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Offline violinist

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Re: Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!
«Reply #72 on: November 03, 2005, 07:29:01 PM »
Ha! next time I'm doing something on aortic endografting remind me to ring you for a comment! (I use pubmed all the time, it's a great resource).

Anyhow I've taken this thread off topic...back to Chopin.

Here are the amendments I mentioned:

bar 1: phrase break between triplets

bar 10: no roll

bars 20,21,22: remove dynamics

bar 26: no roll; B in chord is a minim, not a semib.

bar 30: no cresc

bar 34: no accent on E

36: get rid of crushed C#

37: get rid of D

46: no roll; no E

50: no roll

54: ditto

57, 58: delete dynamics

last E in second last bar is tied with E in last bar



When you're done with this piece Ada, you'll be a scholar for this work.

I'm still chugging along on this piece.  Getting better slowly.  I have to work on memorizing it soon.  I'm not meeting my goals of getting this all memorized already.  I wish I had more time! 

I don't know how all you guys learn all these pieces at once.  I'm only working on this piece at the moment.  It's my only new piece right now (on the piano).

Practice!