Teaching forearm rotation

[sarahlein]

After reading this topic : https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,12594.0.html
some questions come to mind that, I thought, are best posted in a new topic.

How and when do you introduce forearm rotation?

I suppose you'd say from the beginning and that makes sense but what if the student finds it difficult to do. Do you insist on it? How much? How long?

Let me try be more specific.
I have a 6-year-old boy, beginner. Very quick in grasping things. I have been 'using' him as my 'test' project in implementing some of the suggestions everybody's giving in the Forum.
I have used many of the thoughts that are described in this thread: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2260.0.html ( where Bernhard gives a summary of what he teaches in the first 5 lessons)
Things are going great.
After 12 lessons (twice a week) he can identify with ease all the notes on the staff and can understand how ledger lines work. He can handle 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th intervals and plays B, F# and C# major scales.

As far as his playing is concerned, I've been showing him how to play using forearm rotation connecting it with legato playing (so pointing to how it should sound more that how it looks) but he doesn't seem able to immitate the movement.
 I have him hold my hand/arm so he can feel how I do it, he says he understands and then tries it himself but can't.
Oh, I believe he understands it alright, it's just getting the brain to give the right signals. So I'm patient.

The good thing is he doesn't get frustrated, not yet anyway, no matter how many times I go back to it.
He has a bit of muscle tension which I have been so far unsucceful to minimise so I'm sure this has to do with it.

So now back to my question in the beginning.
Should I leave it for now and return to it later? If so, how long should I wait.
What do I do till then? Let him play by lifting his fingers? ( Which by the way he tends to do. He has been experimenting on his own on the piano before he started lessons)

Any thoughts?
Sarah

[green]

Basically there are 3 motions in piano playing. Finger, wrist, and rotation. I have a 5 year old who does natural wrist motion. I never taught him that. Something i've never seen before. Then I have 7-12 year olds who can not do it. In that regard i have the same question, how to teach it, and when to just leave it?

Regarding rotation, teach it when he needs to use it...but unless he's playing Lizst, it may be a while before he needs to use it.

What do I do till then? Let him play by lifting his fingers? ( Which by the way he tends to do. He has been experimenting on his own on the piano before he started lessons)

There is no lifting, the finger goes down, the key pushes it back up.

[bernhard]

It depends on too many variables – especially age and capacity to understand and follow instructions.

And of course rotation is just one of a myriad of useful movements.

Incidentally – and I will digress here – Green’s post above throws light on one of the main problems when discussing this sort of subject. I very much understand what she is talking about (even though I may not agree completely) but a student may be totally at sea. She says there are three basic movements: finger, wrist and rotation. But “finger” and “wrist” are not movements, but parts of one’s anatomy. Am I being pedantic? I don’t think so.

A student (and actually most people) will understand instructions literally. I remember a teacher I was observing at a certain point, saying to the student: “Play evenly, play evenly! And the student was clearly trying his best and failing miserably. The teacher looked at me as if to say “I give up!”, at which point I told the student: “play in a way do that it sounds even”. And the student did a perfect rendition. You see, in order to have an even sound you must play unevenly (think of scales). The student was following instructions literally, trying to make his movements even, which of course immediately resulted in a highly uneven sound. Words and the way we use them are very important.

But to go back to your question. I teach rotation from the very first, since everything can and should be played with rotation you certainly don’t have to wait until Liszt,. And by then it may be too late. Again, rotation is just one movement – there are many others (hand shifting and backwards and forwards motion of the arm to accommodate the thumb and little finger are other important ones) – and most important: their co-ordination. Although these movements should be shown and practised in isolation at first, one should integrate and co-ordinate them as soon as possible (that is, immediately after the student understands and can do them).

How to go about it? Several approaches are best than one. You can try:

1.   Demonstrating and having the student imitate you – both away from the piano and at the piano.

2.   Actually moving the student hand (while he stays relaxed) so s/he feels what it is like).

3.   And the most important one: find a situation in the life of the student where s/he uses the motion naturally and transfer the knowledge to piano playing. In the case of forearm rotation, you can ask them: “How do you turn a door handle?” If they go to karate lessons, asked them to show you a karate punch (it involves rotation of the forearm). You get the idea. This is a powerful method because they are not required to learn something new, but rather to apply something they already know to a new situation.

Ultimately, true technique is always easier than what a student might do by himself, so once understood, the new technique should easily replace the old (inappropriate one).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[sarahlein]

I teach rotation from the very first, since everything can and should be played with rotation you certainly don’t have to wait until Liszt,.

Exactly! Everything should be played with rotation. I wanted to start right so I thought to emphasise (more than other times) the right movements from the beginning.

1.   Demonstrating and having the student imitate you – both away from the piano and at the piano.

That's what I always do but was unsuccessful with this student. It usually works with others.

2.   Actually moving the student hand (while he stays relaxed) so s/he feels what it is like).

Tried that too. I was especially concerned in him staying relaxed while I was moving his hand. Still no success 

3.   And the most important one: find a situation in the life of the student where s/he uses the motion naturally and transfer the knowledge to piano playing. In the case of forearm rotation, you can ask them: “How do you turn a door handle?” If they go to karate lessons, asked them to show you a karate punch (it involves rotation of the forearm). You get the idea. This is a powerful method because they are not required to learn something new, but rather to apply something they already know to a new situation.

Did that also. Actually I had him hold an imaginery key, put it in the keyhole and then turn it. 

He does the movement great 'in the air' it's just transfering the movement back on the keyboard that he has difficulty with.
 I don't know what else to do. That's why I thought perhaps I should leave it for now and come back to it after a couple of lessons. But then again I wasn't sure whether that's a good choice.

There is no lifting, the finger goes down, the key pushes it back up.

NO doubt!

Again, rotation is just one movement – there are many others (hand shifting and backwards and forwards motion of the arm to accommodate the thumb and little finger are other important ones) – and most important: their co-ordination

I realise that but I thought I might as well start with rotation because usually students (at least the ones I worked with) don't have too much of a problem getting the other movements.  Or perhaps I'm looking at it the wrong way.

Please..... help me out 

[abell88]

Hmm...what if you gave him a real key (or one made of cardboard, so as not to do any damage), and had him pretend to open a lock with it while his hand was actually on the keyboard? Of course, his fingers would not be in playing position, but he could produce a sound with the rolling motion of the hand. Or...just thought of that little tune kids learn to play on the black keys (by rolling their fist on the group of 3 black keys)...can he do that? Then it would be a matter of learning to do the same action with the hand open.

[sarahlein]

Good idea abell!!
I'll see him on Friday so I'll give it a try