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Topic: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?  (Read 5386 times)

Offline allchopin

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Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
on: August 22, 2003, 04:37:30 AM
For the first run in Chopins Revolutionary, would it be "permittable" to play this with the right hand?  I mean, you have the space of a sixteenth note to move your hand down, and its far easier with the right... So Why not?
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Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #1 on: August 22, 2003, 04:53:56 AM
The opening passage is repeated an octave higher with hands together in just a little bit, so why cheat? you will still have to learn the left hand.

boliver
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Offline allchopin

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #2 on: August 22, 2003, 05:35:08 AM
Hehe yeh i know, but why risk messing up?  I mean, this doesnt really matter that much does it?
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Offline chopinetta

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #3 on: August 22, 2003, 10:25:57 AM
that study is intended for your left had. you would then be defeating the purpose of the etude!
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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #4 on: August 22, 2003, 11:34:14 AM
I've never played revolutionary etude nor listened to it (well i might have listened to it but i dun recognize it as rev etude) but judging from wut everyone's sayin, it's an etude after all, if it was a normal repertoire piece I guess it would be aight to cheat your fingerings but etudes are made for a reason and better follow it or else it would be pointless
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Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #5 on: August 22, 2003, 06:16:47 PM
another problem you will come to is, if you do the opening passage with the right hand, you are going to have to switch to the left hand when you need to hit the chords. It can be done, but really defeats the purpose of the etude and can actually make it harder.

boliver
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Offline Rach3

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #6 on: August 23, 2003, 07:18:29 AM
I agree, it would be much harder for many reasons. I remember a post somewhere in which it was pointed out that that op. 10 #1 *could* be played very easily with two hands on the arpeggio things. I think its the same principle really. Or why not play op. 25 #10 minus octaves?
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Offline Remon

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #7 on: August 24, 2003, 05:21:18 PM
Well do you want to "escape" such technical difficulties? (which aren't really THAT difficult by the way)
I mean, you can run, but you can't hide...  :-/

Think of this etude as a challenge, to develop your left hand. It won't be easy, but thorough study of this left-hand etude will really improve your technique! (And the results will make you happy ;))
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Offline allchopin

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #8 on: August 25, 2003, 04:38:06 AM
I was mainly asking this for the occaision of performance in public.  Would you still want to play it for the purpose of the etude, or for more of a performace/showy standpoint?
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Offline dreamaurora

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #9 on: August 25, 2003, 04:43:57 AM
Hmm, I don't understand you allchopin. You can play (supposedly) Chopin Ballade no 4, which is far far more difficult than revolutionary etude and you still want to take a cheat for the etude ?
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Offline allchopin

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #10 on: August 25, 2003, 04:50:50 AM
Yes.
;D
I find the revolutionary very difficult, despite everyone's claims.  Especially when the left hand is leaping octaves (before the semi-chromatic run back into the melody).

btw, the ballade transitions are rough, but i can play it pretty well overall.
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Offline Bosendorfer_214

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #11 on: August 25, 2003, 07:31:32 AM
I have played this piece.  It is needless to say that it is well known.  The point of this piece is to develop ones left hand.  If you play it switched around in public you had better hope that there aren't any piano teachers or music students in the audience or you will be laughed out of town.  There is no point in swiching the hands you are eventually going to have to play that run with your left hand anyways.  On top of everthing else it will look REALLY stupid.

The point of these etudes is to develop certain aspects of one's technique, if you cheat you are defeating the purpose.  And, people will think that you are not ABLE to play it the right way, and suggest that you try easier pieces next time.

*I am sorry for being so harsh but I felt that i needed to voice my opinion.  

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Offline Remon

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #12 on: August 25, 2003, 10:52:11 AM
Well I want to agree with Bosendorfer_214.
I have played this piece as well, and it's just a matter of dedicated and thorough study! Then you WILL achieve the technique that is necessary to play this etude well!
The bars where the left hand is leaping octaves, don't think too strictly of a legato, but think in "positions".
And when you've got to throw a finger over/under another finger, make sure the previous finger is very strong after strucking the key (When ascending, it's always the thumb) so that you can "lean" on it (?My english problaby is very good :-[?)
I hope that this will help you a bit, it worked for me.
The passage I find the most difficult, is the one that starts in G Sharp minor!
I'd like to tell you one more time that you should challenge yourself, by studying this etude with PATIENCE, and I'm sure, you will be satisfied after a couple of weeks!!

Remon
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Offline Remon

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #13 on: August 25, 2003, 10:55:37 AM
*(?My english problaby is very good :-[?)
Even these words are wrong...
Yeah, I wanted to say my english probably was NOT very good...  :)
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Offline trunks

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #14 on: April 06, 2004, 01:32:23 AM
To allchopin,

Play that with the LH, definitely. I think the "difficulty" was the intention of the composer himself. And I think it's easier to play with LH than RH here.

Think of the arpeggio passage just before the coda of the opening movement of Beethoven's Appassionata. Many a piano student (even many pianists) would choose the "easy way" of splitting them between both hands. I insist on playing them with RH alone. It sounds way more effective and wholesome that way, and in fact, easier than splitting!

Consider also the wild, progressively wider leaps in Liszt's La leggierezza (immediately before the ending line). Play easy and split between two hands? Nope . . . play with RH alone, again I insist! ::)
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Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #15 on: June 01, 2006, 10:16:39 PM
Quote from: PeterHK on April 06, 2004, 01:32:23 AM

Consider also the wild, progressively wider leaps in Liszt's La leggierezza (immediately before the ending line). Play easy and split between two hands? Nope . . . play with RH alone, again I insist! ::)

I agree with RH alone, but I have to say, these can't be characterized as "wild"!  This is a mysterious, sensual passage that should be played with the softest touch possible.

Walter Ramsey
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Offline prometheus

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #16 on: June 02, 2006, 12:47:21 AM
The rulebook will tell if something is cheating or not. Why don't you read it and find out yourself?
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Offline bearzinthehood

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #17 on: June 02, 2006, 01:03:56 AM
The opening passage is the easiest left hand passage in the piece, why bother cheating?  Plus look at the note groupings, if you play it with the left hand you will have groups of 2431 which naturally gives you the right rhythm and proper accents.  If you play it with the right hand you will have groups of 2143, this is not quite the same.  I would think long and hard before messing around with any of Chopin's original fingerings in these etudes, much less switching hands.
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Offline prometheus

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #18 on: June 02, 2006, 01:15:32 AM
Wait, this topic is way old.
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Offline walking_encyclopedia

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #19 on: June 02, 2006, 01:41:12 AM
Quote from: allchopin on August 22, 2003, 04:37:30 AM
I mean, you have the space of a sixteenth note to move your hand down, and its far easier with the right... So Why not?

what i don't understand is why you want to play those runs with the right hand when you're fresh and starting the piece, and then you proceed to play with your left hand for six more pages. what's the use?

it should be obvious that if you can't complete the first two runs well enough (without "taking the risk of messing up") with your left hand, then you shouldn't be playing the rest of the piece!

Quote from: allchopin on August 25, 2003, 04:50:50 AM
I find the revolutionary very difficult, despite everyone's claims.

well, no. 12 is in my opinion the easiest of all the op. 10 etudes. except for maybe 10/6. once you learn the left hand pattern, you just do it. it doesn't take the stamina of 10/1 and it doesn't have the variations like 10/4 or 10/8.
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Offline pianiststrongbad

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #20 on: June 02, 2006, 07:01:18 AM
Well I'm sorta split on this issue.  First of all in this instance I would recommend doing it in the left hand just because you have to do it later over and over.  Another thing is this is an etude and it does defeat the purpose of the title etude.  I would definately say in this instance to practice it the way it is written.

With that said, the bottom line is you are trying to make the best music you can even if this is an etude.  If you can make it better by using your right hand then I would say do it in performance.
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Offline jlh

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #21 on: June 02, 2006, 08:14:40 AM
Quote from: pianiststrongbad on June 02, 2006, 07:01:18 AM
With that said, the bottom line is you are trying to make the best music you can even if this is an etude.  If you can make it better by using your right hand then I would say do it in performance.

I have to disagree with you there.  Yes, you should make the best music you can even if this is an etude.  However, as had been said many times already... this is an etude designed to develop virtuosity in the left hand (a case can also be made that this is a RH etude, based on the fact that so many mediocre pianists never play the RH well).  Yes you're defeating the purpose of the etude by cheating on this opening line.  If I were watching someone play this etude in public and they played the opening line with the right hand, I would IMMEDIATELY lose respect for them as a pianist.  I would not want to listen to the rest of the piece because there's really no point.  Obviously someone who does this does not take the music seriously as Chopin intended it, so why should I take them seriously?

Second point:

The opening line in the left hand is considerably easier than the rest of the left hand notes in the piece, so if you're having trouble with even this simple line, perhaps this is not the etude you should be playing at the moment.  Or maybe it IS the etude you should be playing, but you need to shift your focus from trying to cheat your way through to genuinely trying to improve your left hand. 

There are no shortcuts in piano -- put the time in and you will find the end result much more satisfying.
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Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #22 on: June 02, 2006, 12:10:51 PM
If youre so scared about playing it with your left hand, maybe you shouldnt begin at all with this ETUDE.

ETUDE
ETUDE.
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Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #23 on: June 02, 2006, 04:38:09 PM
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Offline tompilk

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #24 on: June 02, 2006, 05:36:19 PM
i just started to play it and i have the two runs in the left and the double run sorted.. thats all im up to, but i find them easier together than left on its own!!!
Tom
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Offline allchopin

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #25 on: June 02, 2006, 06:11:17 PM
Of course you should play it with the left hand... oop - this is my thread.
It's really strange to come back to these ol' threads of mine... I never know what I'm going to say next  ::).  Everyone who answered 'left hand' congratulations because you are darn right.
As for the aspect of performing the piece, I actually still agree with my original thought that one can play the piece however necessary, given that your goal is to provide the audience with good music.  I would never 'lose respect' for a pianist because he/she chose a different fingering than I, especially if they were able to arrive at a convincing result.  However, if you are simply aiming to please the technicians, then YMMV.
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Offline trunks

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #26 on: June 02, 2006, 08:21:09 PM
I even play the frequently occurring descending cascades in Liszt's Feux Follets with single hand, namely my right hand alone whenever possible. ;D
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Offline letters

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #27 on: June 03, 2006, 06:19:58 PM
those first couple of bars, with the left hand run, are the only parts of this piece i can play! i guess being left handed mite give me slightly more control and power in my left hand, but youve got to learn it anyway because you have to play it when both hands do it at the same time. tut tut if you cant play it chose something easier
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Offline steve jones

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #28 on: June 06, 2006, 07:20:22 PM
Quote from: allchopin on August 22, 2003, 05:35:08 AM
Hehe yeh i know, but why risk messing up?  I mean, this doesnt really matter that much does it?

I think the point of this pieces is to give the LH a good battering, so it would kind of defeat the object.

SJ
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Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #29 on: June 06, 2006, 11:48:58 PM
cheating is not allowed on an etude, because.... its an etude.
If youre even thinking about cheating this, you shouldnt begin with this etude at all because its probably too hard for you.
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Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #30 on: June 06, 2006, 11:50:17 PM
i know chopin is dead, but he probably will visit you at the night after you perform it with your right hand :p
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Offline prometheus

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #31 on: June 07, 2006, 12:41:13 AM
Yes, in a dark alley. And then he will beat you up and possibly break your right hand so you are forced to use your left one next time.

That's what happened to Godowsky, so the rumours go. And that is why his study on 10-12 is for the left hand only.
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Offline jlh

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #32 on: June 07, 2006, 10:58:41 AM
Quote from: allchopin on June 02, 2006, 06:11:17 PM
As for the aspect of performing the piece, I actually still agree with my original thought that one can play the piece however necessary, given that your goal is to provide the audience with good music.  I would never 'lose respect' for a pianist because he/she chose a different fingering than I, especially if they were able to arrive at a convincing result.  However, if you are simply aiming to please the technicians, then YMMV.

You're wrong of course, but you're entitled to your opinion.   ;)

The primary goal of this and nearly every etude out there is not to provide good music for an audience (of course that is a fantastic by-product of all of chopin's etudes, and people love hearing them so they are played a lot), but to develop technical facility and musical growth for the pianist.  If you cheat you are only hurting yourself and people DO notice if you play a LH etude with the RH. ::)

It is not a matter of fingering... choose what fingering you will and if it sounds good I won't judge, but for a passage SPECIFICALLY designed for the LH, to play it with the RH is almost blasphemy. :o
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Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #33 on: June 07, 2006, 03:38:39 PM
And if you perform it, the people Will notice it and Will think youre a bad pianoplayer.
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Offline allchopin

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #34 on: June 07, 2006, 04:27:27 PM
Quote from: jlh on June 07, 2006, 10:58:41 AM
The primary goal of this and nearly every etude out there is not to provide good music for an audience (of course that is a fantastic by-product of all of chopin's etudes, and people love hearing them so they are played a lot), but to develop technical facility and musical growth for the pianist.  If you cheat you are only hurting yourself and people DO notice if you play a LH etude with the RH. ::)

It is not a matter of fingering... choose what fingering you will and if it sounds good I won't judge, but for a passage SPECIFICALLY designed for the LH, to play it with the RH is almost blasphemy. :o
This indeed is where we diametrically disagree :).  Interesting viewpoint though.
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Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #35 on: June 08, 2006, 06:38:42 AM
Well, at LEAST 90% of the people from this forum thinks playing it with right hand is stupid. Think about that  ;)
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Offline maxy

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #36 on: June 10, 2006, 04:14:07 PM
Quote from: gyzzzmo on June 08, 2006, 06:38:42 AM
Well, at LEAST 90% of the people from this forum thinks playing it with right hand is stupid. Think about that  ;)

Well if someone is the type of person that believes 90% of people are morons...  This is not much of a point.   :P
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Offline kaiwin

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Re: Cheating permitted on the Revolutionary?
Reply #37 on: June 15, 2006, 05:24:55 PM
Don't Cheat! If you do what is the point of etudes? Its for "study"
 :o
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