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Topic: Brahms and Liszt  (Read 10670 times)

Offline presto agitato

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Brahms and Liszt
on: October 25, 2005, 04:00:39 AM
Yesterday i saw on TV a documentary about the life of Brahms.

According to Brahms, Liszt´s piano music was written in order to amaze ladies and when Brahms met Liszt, he said that the hungarian was not the best virtuoso and he was only good at playing fast octaves.

Schumman and Berlioz had the same opinion towards Liszt.

Were they jealous?
Do you think Brahms was better pianist than Liszt?
The masterpiece tell the performer what to do, and not the performer telling the piece what it should be like, or the cocomposer what he ought to have composed.

--Alfred Brendel--

Offline rob47

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #1 on: October 25, 2005, 04:05:36 AM
I think Liszt could have played Scriabin's etudes, if that helps.

Brahms concertos suggest he had something more than Liszt, but what it is I don't know.
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Offline stevie

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #2 on: October 25, 2005, 04:15:50 AM
brahms had more girth

liszt had more fury and better octaves

Offline apion

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #3 on: October 25, 2005, 05:06:06 AM
Yesterday i saw on TV a documentary about the life of Brahms.

Where did you see this documentary?

To answer your question, Brahms and Liszt are almost TOTALLY incomparable: Brahms' main focus was crafting transcendent masterpieces with motivic and thematic unity, impeccably tight construction, and pianistic virtuosity.  Brahms produced several of the greatest pianistic tours de force ever, including his Piano Concerti nos. 1 and 2; his Paganini Variations; and his Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Handel.  Not to mention his late piano works.

Liszt was primarily about spectacular showmanship, with tight integration oftentimes being neglected.  But there's no doubt that Liszt produced far more pianistic showpieces than virtually any other composer, including Beethoven, Brahms, Chopin, and others.

At the end of the day, I'm not prepared to say who was the greater composer for piano.

Offline da jake

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #4 on: October 25, 2005, 05:42:50 AM
Pianism

There's no doubt in my mind that Liszt was the better pianist. This is supported by the superiority of Liszt's pianistic writing over Brahms and those unavoidable torrents of contemporary accounts lauding Liszt's skillz. Brahms is awkward, whereas Liszt is very pianistic (don't be fooled by Liszt's crappy-and-intending-to-show-off fingerings!)

Brahms was hyper-critical of all his contemporaries, just as Liszt was incredibly generous to them. I think Liszt said about 5 pianists were the greatest he ever encountered! I also think Brahms was in no real position to judge the penistic girth of others as he was a bit lacking himself. Brahms was a musical genius. There are stories about him transposing Beethoven sonatas seemlessly to compensate for out-of-tune pianos. There are no stories comperable to those freakish feats of virtuosity by Liszt though (sightreading Grieg concerto, playing chopets in octaves to shock Dre'scock.) I really doubt Brahms was a great pianist at all.

Composer-credz

Brahms' output is greater than Liszt's overall. Brahms' Piano Concerti are better. He wrote better symphonies. A great violin concerto, double concerto etc. Besides the Faust Symphony and Les Preludes, Liszt has little to list in comparison. :D

Solo piano music? Brahms' intermezzi are wonderful. His first few sonatas are a bit wank, but the 3rd one is superb.  Those kick-ass Paganini Variations are probably 2nd best theme and variations of the 19th century after Mr. Alkan's. The ballades aren't that great. Rhapsodies are cute, but not really serious.

Liszt's solo output is huge, obviously. A lot of it is junk, but there is some good stuff to come out of it. The B minor Sonata is probably one of the greatest large-scale piano works ever composed - Brahms wrote nothing of it's calibre for the instrument. Then there are the Transcendental Etudes, some of which are really good. The 2nd ballade is excellent. Funerailles too. Some of the Pelerinages are wikid. There is a lot of other worthwile stuff in Liszt's output that I haven't mentioned.  Liszt is also hands down the greater transcriber, arranger, heh. What like the Don Juan Fantasy is comparable in Brahms?

Anyways, Liszt is the more versatile piano composer, while Brahms is the greater overall composer.
"The best discourse upon music is silence" - Schumann

Offline practicingnow

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #5 on: October 25, 2005, 07:35:34 AM
The general regard for Liszt's music is that it lacks intellectual content.  This view is the result of a number of factors: 
1) the relative lack of counterpoint in his music, which was the hallmark of scholarly musicianship throughout the Baroque and Classical periods.  Liszt tended more toward an operatic bigness, with recitative and aria elements contained in his piano writing.
2) the excessive use of rubato, which is equated with self-indulgence and the opposite of noble objectivity.
3) the overt virtuosity of it can be blinding, and can obscure one's vision of its brilliant structural and motivic whole.  Some of  the Transcendental Etudes and first Mephisto Waltz can be examples of this.
4) the reckless nature of it, which sometimes failed, but was always courageous.
5) the general accessibility of it, a quality in music which is always wrongly placed under the category of "cheap".
6) his penchant for writing "program" music as opposed to "absolute" music.
7) his own undeniable image as the inventor of the solo-recital and as unabashed virtuoso-showman: how could such a musician compose anything but superficial music?
7) his vision sometimes exceeded his reach.
- these are some of the reasons that Liszt is categorized as only second rate to more "serious" composers, but in fact, no composer  ever understood and pioneered the functionality of harmony more profoundly than Liszt, indeed more deeply than Brahms, Wagner, Strauss, Schoenberg, et al.  No one ever realized the potential of a single instrument as fully.  At his most noble, his vision extended farther and wider than anyone's at the time, and he fearlessly pursued that vision, sometimes reaching it, evident in the "Harmonies Poetique et Religiouses" and some of his later works.  Add to that the sheer range of emotions contained in his music, drawn from his own broad aesthetic base of literature, painting, sculpture, religion, bacchanale...
I personally do not think that he was history's greatest composer - that distinction belongs to Beethoven - but I do think that he was among history's most talented musicians, alongside Mozart, Paganini, Berlioz, Mendelsohn, Wagner - indeed one must accept Liszt's music on its own terms, steeped in audacious harmonies and romantic rhetoric, and as a symbol of the age.

Obviously Brahms was not only a great composer, but a closed-minded schmuck when it came to Liszt's music.  My STRONG suspicion is that some professional jealosy came into play there, as it often does when it comes to big egos.

Offline hodi

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #6 on: October 25, 2005, 03:02:50 PM
i never really liked liszt's music
it is full of octaves and chromatic runs, but lacks emotional depth and deep musical content.

i think brahms was a better composer
his piano concertos are FAR BETTER than liszt's ones
same for the symphonies.

Offline mephisto

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #7 on: October 25, 2005, 06:27:45 PM
i never really liked liszt's music
it is full of octaves and chromatic runs, but lacks emotional depth and deep musical content.

i think brahms was a better composer
his piano concertos are FAR BETTER than liszt's ones
same for the symphonies.

You can`t imagine how much I want to kill yuo for that post.

Liszt`s music lacks depth ::)

Are you kidding me. No music, not even Chopin`s have  evoced as much emotions on me as the music of Liszt. People seams to judge Liszt only by his legend and not by his actual music. And if they listens to his music they uses pieces like HR2 and la campanella as a  reason to why Liszt`s music is superficial(so Chopin is superificial because of opsu 64.1?). That is not reasonable, when Liszt`s best music was written after his or in his weimar periode.

Listen to this. If it doesn`t bring a tear to yuor eye or anything like that than you should think about what your hearth is made of.

https://s53.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=12N1BPOBKS62E3IPH0HY1DZ6O4

PS! I do of course love Brahms to. But I recomend you to read Alan Walker`s 3 part bio on Listz.

Offline spirithorn

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #8 on: October 25, 2005, 06:45:28 PM
But I recomend you to read Alan Walker`s 3 part bio on Listz.

I totally agree regarding the Walker biography.
"Souplesse, souplesse..."

Offline prometheus

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #9 on: October 25, 2005, 08:15:03 PM
Wasn't Berlioz a personal friend of Liszt after Liszt championed his music and saved his career?
"As an artist you don't rake in a million marks without performing some sacrifice on the Altar of Art." -Franz Liszt

Offline practicingnow

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #10 on: October 25, 2005, 09:20:46 PM
Wasn't Berlioz a personal friend of Liszt after Liszt championed his music and saved his career?

yes - very close friends

Offline prometheus

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #11 on: October 25, 2005, 10:40:21 PM
So is it correct that he still agreed with Brahms insults?
"As an artist you don't rake in a million marks without performing some sacrifice on the Altar of Art." -Franz Liszt

Offline chopiabin

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #12 on: October 25, 2005, 11:36:38 PM
No one ever realized the potential of a single instrument as fully.

Chopin?

Offline practicingnow

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #13 on: October 26, 2005, 01:00:19 AM
Chopin?

No - not to the extent of Liszt - I'm talking about range, timbre, pedaling, orchestral sonorities - the total exploitation - no, not Chopin, nor did Chopin intend to do so.

Offline presto agitato

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #14 on: October 26, 2005, 01:14:36 AM
I just want to mention that HR num 12 performed by Murray Perahia is in my top 10 piano pieces.

Yes...Liszt wrote beautiful pieces.
The masterpiece tell the performer what to do, and not the performer telling the piece what it should be like, or the cocomposer what he ought to have composed.

--Alfred Brendel--

Offline apion

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #15 on: October 26, 2005, 10:22:31 PM
Brahms piano concertos are FAR BETTER than liszt's ones
same for the symphonies.

Agreed.  But Liszt does have 3 wonderful piano concerti (including Totentanz) -- quite different than both Brahms concerti -- and all 3 are first-tier virtuosic showpieces.

Offline chopiabin

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #16 on: October 26, 2005, 11:22:32 PM
Well, don't you think most of Chopin's are more "pianistic", more complex, and just "deeper" music? I think Liszt is beautiful and some of his pieces blow me away, but there are few that I really feel a deep connection to - so much of his music seems to be a bunch superficial cadenzas. Even in serious pieces like Sonetto 104 del Petrarca, there are cadenzas that just feel random.

Chopin, to me, seems to have left the world lf technique with more than quick octaves and arpeggios - there is so much emphasis on different voices and even contrapuntal structure that it takes more than speed. 

Offline mikey6

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #17 on: October 27, 2005, 12:41:55 AM
Pianism
 (don't be fooled by Liszt's crappy-and-intending-to-show-off fingerings!)

I disagree with this.  Usually when composer takes the time to insert fingering into a score, it's either for awkwards phrases where there pretty much is only one fingereing or to produce a particular sound.  And espcially when the composer is probably the one who understtod the piano better than anyone else!
I can think of 2 examples where Liszt wrote in fingereing and the sound is totally different to what one would normally use - in Vallee d'Obermann which i'm learning at the moment, there is a rolled Amaj chord in the right hand in the first cmajor section which begining on a rolling up to c#, his suggested fingering is 12345 which makes the 4th and 5th fingers rather awkward whereas one would put 3 or 4 on top of 5 for  the c# (well i would).  His fingering is intended to produce and equal weight acorss all the notes, whereas the other fingering would make the c# stick out.
In the tarantella (years of pilgrimage), when the napoletan melody is ahsred between thunbs, the next entry of the theme with the melody in the left hand has all the melody notes played with the 4th finger, but! the marking is marcato!
As for Mazeppa which i'm sure someone would question, I haven't played it so i'm not exactly sure but i'm sure there is a reason behind it which isn't simply showmanship.

I agree with practicingnow's woute about Liszts'a harmony.  I was researching the other night and apparently there was a manuscipt which dissappeared, Liszt was working on which was a substitue to tonality! 100 years before Schoenberg!
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Richard Strauss

Offline practicingnow

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #18 on: October 27, 2005, 02:48:18 AM
Well, don't you think most of Chopin's are more "pianistic", more complex, and just "deeper" music? I think Liszt is beautiful and some of his pieces blow me away, but there are few that I really feel a deep connection to - so much of his music seems to be a bunch superficial cadenzas. Even in serious pieces like Sonetto 104 del Petrarca, there are cadenzas that just feel random.

Chopin, to me, seems to have left the world lf technique with more than quick octaves and arpeggios - there is so much emphasis on different voices and even contrapuntal structure that it takes more than speed. 

You misunderstand me - I didn't say that Liszt's music is greater than Chopin's - I said that he realized the potential of the instrument more fully, which he certainly did.  The same way that Paganini realized the potential of the violin more fully than Mozart or Beethoven - that is not to suggest that he was the better composer... 
Liszt was at times after effects and sounds, imitating nature, conjuring images of water, fire, birds etc. which he achieved through innovative techniques that he alone invented.  Chopin was not after effects, except maybe in rare cases like the final movt. from the 2nd Sonata, or maybe in a Prelude or two - you can count these instances on one hand.
Personally I think that both Liszt and Chopin were absolutely great, both geniuses beyond measure - do you agree?

Offline chopiabin

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #19 on: October 27, 2005, 06:24:58 AM
I think that they were both geniuses, but Liszt got too obsessed with flashiness and often failed to reach his potential in terms of "great" music. It is clear he possessed a gift - B minor sonata - but he just often seems to have just resorted to double octaves and overblown arpeggios. 

Offline AvoidedCadence

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #20 on: October 27, 2005, 03:50:35 PM
I have Idil Biret's Brahms 2.  In the program notes it says that the composer called it "his long terror."  When the composer played his own concerto in Vienna in 1884,

"Eduard Hanslick, a firm friend of Brahms, could only speak with reserve of the composer's technical ability as a pianist whatever his admiration for the concert itself... and remarking that Brahms now had more important things to do than practise a few hours a day, a kind excuse for any technical imperfections there might have been in his playing."


Enough said.
Always play as though a master listened.
 - Robert Schumann

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #21 on: October 27, 2005, 04:01:03 PM
brahms could also play the violin quite well.

Offline practicingnow

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #22 on: October 27, 2005, 08:39:53 PM
I have Idil Biret's Brahms 2.  In the program notes it says that the composer called it "his long terror."  When the composer played his own concerto in Vienna in 1884,

"Eduard Hanslick, a firm friend of Brahms, could only speak with reserve of the composer's technical ability as a pianist whatever his admiration for the concert itself... and remarking that Brahms now had more important things to do than practise a few hours a day, a kind excuse for any technical imperfections there might have been in his playing."


Enough said.

Hanslick was a musical idiot.  If anyone would like to debate this fact, I would be interested to hear your argument...

Offline mrdaveux

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #23 on: November 01, 2005, 02:04:16 AM
Liszt compositional powers are pretty amazing, though Brahms is usually considered a greater composer (the percentage of crap in Liszt output is far greater than Brahms).

Many people dismiss is concerti in comparison with Brahms 2nd. I don't agree. OK, the first Liszt concerto is a little too much about showmanship and brilliancy. Liszt second concerto (less showy than the 1st but not easier), though, is musically incredible: the emotional (touching melodies, impressive sounds etc.) and intellectual (the thematic unity and development, the harmonic scheme etc.) contents are at least as good as Brahms 2nd in my opinion. Many people forget about that concerto... not as popular as the 1st, I guess.

I think I read somewhere that there are sketches of a 3rd, forgotten, concerto, but I haven't heard it and won't comment on it. As for the Totentanz and the Malediction, both for piano and orchestra, they are not technically concerti (the first is in theme and variations form, the other is like the 1st movement of a concerto) but are musically excellent.

Offline Floristan

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #24 on: November 01, 2005, 06:04:45 PM
"Eduard Hanslick, a firm friend of Brahms, could only speak with reserve of the composer's technical ability as a pianist whatever his admiration for the concert itself... and remarking that Brahms now had more important things to do than practise a few hours a day, a kind excuse for any technical imperfections there might have been in his playing."


Enough said.

By 1884 Brahms was definitely not concentrating on performing, and it was about this time he gave up public performance.  However, as a young man, he partially supported himself with his performing and was good enough to get decent notices.  Clara Schumann gave him a lot of instruction shortly after they met, and it apparently helped his tone production.  He apparently had an incredible natural facility at the keyboard but was not the most subtle of pianists (and Clara was).  And no, he was no Liszt...but he and the Schumann's were proud of the fact that they weren't, as they thought of Liszt as a showman and a superficial composer who was taking music in the wrong direction, pandering to the basest tastes. 

In his late teens, to help his father make ends meet, Brahms took work playing piano in the singing halls that dotted the waterfront in Hamburg.  These were places where a sailor could get a drink, watch a show, and enjoy some female companionship of a more intimate nature.  Brahms, who played the popular music of the day by ear, was accompanist and provider of background music.  One story is that he read Heine while playing -- had the book open on the music stand and read while he played, to elevate his thought while playing in those base surroundings.

He spoke bitterly of this early experience playing in these houses of prostitution till the end of his life.  It wasn't easy work, the hours were terrible, he was a very pretty young man, and apparently the whores and sailors teased him mercilessly at times (the teasing was overtly sexual).  For some boys, adolescent hormones raging,  that environment might be a blast, but not Brahms, who was very sensitive and conscious of his higher calling at this young age.  It was partly these adolescent sexual experiences that confirmed in his mind that women came in two types:  whores and madonnas.  It was a prevailing view men had of women at the time in Germany, just accentuated by Brahms's early experiences.  For the rest of Brahms life, he idolized and worshipped some women (like Clara Schumann), thought of them as muses, inspirations -- but not as sexual creatures.  He frequented prostitutes for his sexual needs, and what scant evidence we have indicates he treated them very well.

So Brahms had great facility at the piano, and he was frequently engaged to play concerti (e.g., Beethoven's "Emperor" was a staple of his repertoire).  His facility was so good, the story goes, that he played the "Emperor" on a piano that was a half-step out of tune and transposed the entire piece up a half-step to be in tune with the orchestra.  As Brahms matured and started making money from his composing, teaching, and conducting, he slowly discontinued public playing.

For me personally there is no contest between Brahms and Liszt as composers.  Liszt was sometimes a better composer than some give him credit, but so much of what he composed was fluff designed to show off his technique and make his mostly female audiences swoon.  That's why the emotions in Liszt tend toward the obvious.  Brahms purposely modeled himself on the giant composers of the past -- Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann.  He was especially interested in retaining the classical forms -- which made him vulnerable to criticism from the Liszt/Wagner camp that he was stuffy and old fashioned.  He thought of himself as continuing a tradition of composition where form, counterpoint, harmony, etc. were essential.  Liszt and Wagner thought they were composing the music of the future, and it essentially abandoned the old forms, paid little heed to counterpoint, and devoted itself to creating emotional states in the listener.  I can appreciate this type of music (Bruckner was the symphonist of the group), but it doesn't interest me nearly as much as music that contains form, structure, counterpoint, etc.

Sorry for the long-winded reply!  :o

Offline demented cow

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #25 on: November 01, 2005, 06:22:48 PM
i never really liked liszt's music
it is full of octaves and chromatic runs, but lacks emotional depth and deep musical content.
i think brahms was a better composer
his piano concertos are FAR BETTER than liszt's ones.
I agree that Brahms is the greater composer, and that Liszt's concertos suck in comparison to those of Brahms (or even Chopin). But whatever your opinion of the emotional-musical value of Liszt’s music, you should check some facts before posting stuff like the call about octaves and chromatic runs, which is easily refuted (not much better than somebody saying ‘I don’t like Bach because I don’t like fugues’). I bet that the above assessment of Liszt was based on a badly compiled Liszt 'best-of' collection which didn't contain many of the following pieces (other people would name others):
-Benediction de dieu dans la solitude (15-20 minutes of sublime contemplative melody, perhaps evidence that his religious feelings were real)
- 'Harmonies du soir' and ‘Ricordanza’ from the transcendental etudes (apart from the melodic and harmonic beauty, these and several other etudes make many of Chopin's etudes look like trivial experiments in ABA structure in comparison; Of the TEs, the first three are maybe a bit inconsequential, but the rest have a hell of a lot more musical consequence and creativity to them than Chopin’s efforts in this direction).
-From Annees de Pelerinage: jeux d'eaux a la Villa d'Este, Au Bord d'une Source, Vallee d'Obermann, Sposializio.
Since the above quote sees fast octaves as inherently evil for some reason, I have to leave pieces like the b-minor and Dante sonatas off the list. Ok, so they have fast passages in them that impress audiences, but if that’s a reason to call them superficial, then we would have to ditch many masterpieces, say some of Chopin’s ballades and scherzos and Beethoven’s 5th concerto

Offline prometheus

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #26 on: November 01, 2005, 07:45:54 PM
Liszt's concerto's suck in comparison with Chopin's? Chopin couldn't even write a (proper) concerto.

I agree with the other comments.
"As an artist you don't rake in a million marks without performing some sacrifice on the Altar of Art." -Franz Liszt

Offline hodi

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #27 on: November 01, 2005, 09:06:07 PM
Liszt's concerto's suck in comparison with Chopin's? Chopin couldn't even write a (proper) concerto.

I agree with the other comments.

Although chopin's concertos aren't well orchestrated , they are very emotional and have great melodies comparing to liszt, i find them much more enjoyable

Offline mikey6

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #28 on: November 03, 2005, 12:38:28 AM
He apparently had an incredible natural facility at the keyboard but was not the most subtle of pianists (and Clara was).

There is an recording of Brahms at the piano I saw on a documentary - he's playing the 1st hungarian dance.  I'm guessing it would have been late 1880's and judging from the poor sound quality, it seems as though he could handle it rather easily.

There's also the famous recording of him talking but has been debated as to whether it is actually him.
Never look at the trombones. You'll only encourage them.
Richard Strauss

Offline demented cow

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #29 on: November 04, 2005, 06:49:31 PM
There is an recording of Brahms at the piano I saw on a documentary - he's playing the 1st hungarian dance.  [...] There's also the famous recording of him talking but has been debated as to whether it is actually him.
This post (I guess unintentionally) sounded like there was film footage of Brahms playing, which is a bit, um, unexpected, given that sound-synchronisation didn't really work until the 20s.
Anyway, I found a link discussing the recordings (sorry if everybody else knew about this):
www-ccrma.stanford.edu/~brg/brahms2.html
I am hoping the links to the actual recordings are only temporarily broken...
Regards,
The Cow.

Offline fryc

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #30 on: November 05, 2005, 11:17:12 PM
Re Chopin / Liszt / Piano

Liszt much more physical strength, much larger hands, and 35 more productive years than Chopin.   Go figure - -   BTW I love them both.

Offline presto agitato

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #31 on: March 19, 2006, 04:49:46 AM
Have you noticed that Liszt never did an transcription or fantasy  based on Brahm´s music?

The masterpiece tell the performer what to do, and not the performer telling the piece what it should be like, or the cocomposer what he ought to have composed.

--Alfred Brendel--

Offline mephisto

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #32 on: March 19, 2006, 08:57:09 AM
Have you noticed that Liszt never did an transcription or fantasy  based on Brahm´s music?



Have you noticed that Liszt never played any of the music of Brahms exept the time he sightread the scherzo opus4?

Later that day Liszt played his b-minor Sonata and Brahms fell a sleep and the war of the romantics was started.


Offline zheer

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #33 on: March 19, 2006, 09:45:36 AM
Brahms and Chopin were able to compose far better piano music than Liszt and they could do it with  less notes. Too many notes in Liszt's piano music  with little musical substance , written by someone who was intrested in exploiting the instrument. Also a number of Liszts composition sound like chopin, either exploited or down-graded.

      For me and for a lot of people Chopin is regareded as the poet of the piano where-as Liszt the Devil amongst performers. Anyway Rahmaninoff was a far greater composer and pianist than Liszt, where-as Brahmas and Chopin Remain in a class of their-own.
" Nothing ends nicely, that's why it ends" - Tom Cruise -

Offline panic

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #34 on: March 19, 2006, 10:20:26 AM
To begin with, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert and the like are composers of the mind - their music has a cerebral quality such that you can tell that the guy who wrote it was a genius. Often these were also composers of the heart.

Chopin was a composer of the mind and of the heart.
Liszt was almost never a composer of the mind. His pieces tend to lack very much cerebral genius, save for perhaps parts of the Sonata, and instead sound composed out at the piano rather than devised in his mind. At his best, he is a composer of the heart. At his worst, he is a composer of the hands.

Brahms comes across to me as a composer of the mind trying to be a composer of the heart. His music has much emotional content, but to me it often sounds very artificially construed. However, Brahms was certainly never a composer of the hands alone - one of the great things about his work is that almost none of the content is useless. There's not very many instances - and the case is the same with most Rachmaninoff - where you could take out a note or a chord and it would still be fine. In Liszt you can take out entire sections (particularly the improvisational runs up and down the piano) and the work would not be very different.

Offline pianowelsh

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #35 on: March 20, 2006, 12:38:02 PM
I think there may have been an element of jealousy in the statement.  But when you comprare the statements he made about some people i think Liszt came off fairly lightly. Each of the great composer-pianists of that era had very individual strengths in their playing - i think of chopin, liszt, brahms etc etc.  i think its true to say when you have a distinguished reputation for doing what you do then it tends to make you look at others who dont do it with a slightly criticial attitude??! Brahms we can see from his music was very brooding and sincere especially in the later works.  Liszt was much more a showman and a technition. Not in a purely mechanical way but i think its fair to say he was of extrovert personality whereas brahms always comes across as being much more introverted and ?subtle? in the way he conducted himself - passion does come out strongly in his work but in a very different way from in liszt works.

Offline mephisto

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #36 on: March 20, 2006, 07:19:51 PM
Chopin was a composer of the mind and of the heart.
Liszt was almost never a composer of the mind. His pieces tend to lack very much cerebral genius, save for perhaps parts of the Sonata, and instead sound composed out at the piano rather than devised in his mind. At his best, he is a composer of the heart. At his worst, he is a composer of the hands.



Utterly childiss. Indeed some of Liszt\s pieces are very shallow but so are some compositions of all composers. But listen to this:

https://s56.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2PRN9VSJ2C3PC1L1ZU81YWSU76

It`s some of the most beautifull music I have ever heard.

Offline apion

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #37 on: March 20, 2006, 09:32:05 PM
Brahms comes across to me as a composer of the mind trying to be a composer of the heart. His music has much emotional content, but to me it often sounds very artificially construed.

Pure rubbish.  Brahms' music has more emotional depth than almost any other composer.

Offline panic

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #38 on: March 20, 2006, 10:01:07 PM
I didn't mean to come across bluntly there. It's a difficult case to talk about. I used to think that Brahms' work was, indeed, packed with very real and deep emotional content until I realized that everything was too perfectly set up - too perfectly to be real, in my opinion. Happiness and misery do not come in groups of four or eight bars, or in perfectly arranged phrases and progressions, or in entrances of the piano at exactly the right moment, for example. In my opinion Brahms' phrasing is to musical emotion very much as some of the speeches of Shakespeare and particularly Vergil are to on-stage and literary emotion. They're perfectly phrased, magnificently eloquent, and flawless, but unnervingly so, and you start realizing that no one actually speaks that eloquently when they're ticked off or upset or gleeful. No one starts rhapsodizing about the sisters of Venus in perfect iambic pentameter or something when things are going good, and that's analogous to how Brahms' music comes across to me. Someone's signature here - I forget whose - is a quote from Horowitz that says "Perfection itself is imperfection." That's my problem with Brahms. I hope this is a marginally respectable opinion, and that I carried it across decently well, because I certainly respect yours and those that disagree with it.

Offline rimv2

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #39 on: March 21, 2006, 05:34:31 AM
Wow, that's interesting.



But ahll have to disagree.



The 66 Mustang is quite beautiful.



But its no comparison to the 67 model.


And the 65s and 68s pwn all.



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Offline da jake

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #40 on: March 21, 2006, 05:38:49 AM
Brahms was a better composer than Liszt overall. But Brahms didn't write any keyboard works as great as Liszt B minor.
"The best discourse upon music is silence" - Schumann

Offline rimv2

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #41 on: March 21, 2006, 05:52:46 AM
His concerto in a minor has a splendid opening.

His cello concerto/sonata in the same key is totally dreamy.

His sonata in F for piano and violin is to freaking die for.
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Offline presto agitato

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #42 on: March 21, 2006, 06:00:53 AM
Brahms didn't write any keyboard works as great as Liszt B minor.

Is that a fact?

Listen to his Variations Op 9 on a theme by Schumann or his Sonata in F minor.
The masterpiece tell the performer what to do, and not the performer telling the piece what it should be like, or the cocomposer what he ought to have composed.

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Offline presto agitato

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #43 on: March 21, 2006, 06:02:45 AM
His concerto in a minor has a splendid opening.

His cello concerto/sonata in the same key is totally dreamy.

His sonata in F for piano and violin is to freaking die for.

What concerto do you mean?

Violin sonata in F? What sonata is that? As far as i know he wrote only three violin sonatas (G major, A major and D minor)
The masterpiece tell the performer what to do, and not the performer telling the piece what it should be like, or the cocomposer what he ought to have composed.

--Alfred Brendel--

Offline rimv2

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #44 on: March 21, 2006, 06:06:05 AM
What concerto do you mean?

Violin sonata in F? What sonata is that? As far as i know he wrote only three violin sonatas (G major, A major and D minor)
Duh,daduh!!! ::)


Juss messin.

Ah meant Grieg.
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Offline musicsdarkangel

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #45 on: March 22, 2006, 07:36:54 PM
hehe, Liszt was said to only have sightread the Brahms 2nd concerto perfectly.




.....

Offline avetma

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #46 on: March 22, 2006, 08:30:37 PM
Everyone mentiones chromatics and octaves in Liszt's music; but at the end of the day - no one mentiones left-hand development in many many Chopin works?

There is no point in analysis music; there is only point in understanding what composer wanted to say with it.

And regarding to that, I vote for Liszt altought I like both Brahms and Chopin.
But his works such as Piano Concerto no.2 or Sonata in b minor are just beautiful.

Offline rimv2

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #47 on: March 24, 2006, 07:38:07 AM
Chopin was bangin Liszt's wife when he caught the syph. Brahms was mad cuz he wasnt gettin none and he was secretly in love with Liszt. Liszt had so much skin being thrown at him that he aint give a what 8)
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Offline bearzinthehood

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #48 on: April 29, 2006, 01:53:08 AM
Brahms keeps it real.  8)

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Brahms and Liszt
Reply #49 on: July 09, 2006, 08:20:39 PM
Well, don't you think most of Chopin's are more "pianistic", more complex, and just "deeper" music? I think Liszt is beautiful and some of his pieces blow me away, but there are few that I really feel a deep connection to - so much of his music seems to be a bunch superficial cadenzas. Even in serious pieces like Sonetto 104 del Petrarca, there are cadenzas that just feel random.

Chopin, to me, seems to have left the world lf technique with more than quick octaves and arpeggios - there is so much emphasis on different voices and even contrapuntal structure that it takes more than speed. 

I would bet that the cadenzas in P.S. 104 (:)) feel "random" due to the perfomer.  They are meant, I think, to be spontaneous expressions of angst, passion, melancholy, and languidity (in that order).  I wouldn't even use the "glittery" or "brilliant" sound on any of them, with the possible exception of the first.  The last cadenza sounds like a love letter, dropped from the hand, slowing winding its way to the floor.  There's nothing random about it to me!

That is an interesting observation on Chopin, who definitely was deeply involved with the contrapuntal structures of his work.  You can find it also in Liszt, but not in as many pieces.  I think Liszt contributed a lot more than just double note and arpeggio techniques, after all he was the first pianist to understand, apply, and develop Chopin's unique technique.  A piece like Mephisto Waltz has a different mechanical challenge on every page, and once you can play those, the difficulty has just begun.  Even Richter said, "This piece has to be practiced all the time."  Liszt's main contribution, in my mind, was the unlimited imagination, the unparalleled characterization, that went into his music.  There are so many different ways to play his music, but all of them require an intense commitment to the most minute details of sound quality. 

Walter Ramsey
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