I am only speaking from my experience of teaching 20+ years and hundreds of students as individuals, I just don't see students hurting themselves from piano.
You're deliberately being obtuse, which is not unusual for you.
The Peabody article is definitive. 79% of their incoming freshman have been injured. Of course you wouldn't know what Peabody is, but it is a prestigious US musical conservatory. Everybody entering is not only talented but has had the best instruction, or they wouldn't be there. And they're still hurt.
I don't believe Australians are any different. I just believe you're blind to what goes on.
I'm surprised that an experienced piano teacher remains ignorant of music conservatory education.
This is not a US invention; the US system is derived from European tradition:https://www.onlineschoolscenter.com/posts/20-prestigious-music-degree-programs-world/It's probably much easier to get into medical school than a music conservatory. I'll leave it to you to figure out which one translates into a job.
Reaching the higher levels demands more time commitment, and as the hours per day climb so does the risk.
You can mitigate it somewhat with correct technique, good instruction, and careful awareness, but you can't eliminate the risk of an inherently unnatural activity.
FWIW:From my VERY limited perspective of four teachers in the US, none of them discussed how to practice or how to avoid injury. I guess I have been doing something instinctively right not to have had injury--- but this is a topic that should be an integral part of teaching. ... maybe it is, but just not with the teachers I have had.
I'd say your experience is pretty normal. So many students that come to me are pleasantly surprised when we start actually talking about HOW to practice instead of only WHAT to practice. I agree with you that all teachers should teach how to practice, it is a shame that they don't. You can get a lot of tips HOW to practice but the problem is that application to the pieces you are learning and your own physical and mental capability.
Surely how we move plays a role! If a student is guided half decently, especially in the area of how to practice, then some specific music such as the Hanon is not going to be harmful - but if misguided, maybe any music might be. That is, it's not the music, but the how of the practising. What do you think?Like, when you talk about teaching the how of practising, I would think we're pretty well on the same page.
Since when has individual, anecdotal experience been the gold standard of evidence when extrapolating to populations? https://search.informit.com.au/documentSummary;dn=516145657846429;res=IELHSS
Couldn't get your link to work. I thought the Peabody information significant. I was surprised that people so young had already experienced injury, they tend to be more resilient. L-I-w isn't familiar with conservatories but they are specialized music colleges that only accept the most accomplished students - you have to already play at a very high level to have a chance at acceptance.
How to practice and how to play (mechanics) are two different things.
Contrast this to just trying and trying and trying over a whole piece. Meanwhile it intertwines with the mechanical, because as you learn to move in better ways for particular sections, that is the mechanical.
I'm not so sure.Playing over a whole piece is certainly the least efficient method of practice. But it is probably protective of injury, due to the variety of motions and the chance to rest.
.... L-I-w isn't familiar with conservatories but they are specialized music colleges that only accept the most accomplished students - you have to already play at a very high level to have a chance at acceptance.
Playing over a whole piece is certainly the least efficient method of practice.
Goodness me not familiar with conservatories? I've tutored students studying at conservatories here in Australia,
Really. Then go read amanensis's link again - 68% of conservatory students in Australia had an injury that limited their playing the week before the survey. I think you're in denial.
- Anamnesis' link does not provide any information on whether LiW knows about conservatories.
But he insists that none of his students get injured, nor anybody he knows, and that he works with Australian conservatory students. Anamensis's link shows injuries at Australian conservatories.
Students sustain injuries because they try to play through the pain...no exercise in and of itself is to blame.
It's always user error.
You are very unusual then. Other musicians know many people with injuries. I know people with injuries.https://www.wellbalancedpianist.com/pianoinjury.htmOr from this one:https://www.peabody.jhu.edu/past_issues/fall09/musician_heal_thyself.htmlYou say it's rare, Peabody says "the majority."
duplicate post
It happens not only that students are not taught how to practice, but they can also be taught to do things that are harmful. I gave the example of keeping the arms virtually motionless (thus stiff), so that a pencil can be balanced on them, and then raising the fingers high and perpetually curved in one shape, hammering them down with force.
The thing is that people work in isolation.
It is quite possible that LiW does not have students that injured,
because of how he teaches,
and it is equally possible that the conservatory students whom he happens to teach also do not get injured.
Well, maybe. Might be for other reasons too. Purely recreational students and enrichment students rarely practice enough to get hurt, and he indicates Australians are laid back and uncompetitive, at least the ones he knows. No, that one I don't buy
I said uncompetitive since if people are in the USA practicing so hard they injure themselves they must be super competitive to an extreme level.
You don't think admission to a music conservatory is competitive? Seriously?
Purely recreational students and enrichment students rarely practice enough to get hurt.
Here's a non-paywalled link to that study of piano related injuries among students at a conservatory.https://www98.griffith.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/handle/10072/49098/79199_1.pdf?sequence=1
The recreational student is the most likely to be taught carelessly without proper guidance.
...Recreational students don't tend to get injured, at least we never hear about it on teacher forums....Serious students do get hurt, as a large number of studies show.
I haven't touched on focal dystonias, which I think are probably conceptually different. But a) I don't see any obvious relationship to Hanon, and b) I'm pretty sure it would enrage LiW even further.
I just read the study. For practical purposes in terms of teaching and learning (which is what the teaching forum is about) I found it useless.
It's not useless just because it didn't answer all your questions.
Applied Majors pre-screening requirement: Before December 1, all undergraduate piano performance applicants seeking a live audition must upload a preliminary audition recording. The prescreening recording must be a minimum of 30 minutes in duration of solo music. Repertoire requirements for the pre-screening recording must include at least two works representing different styles, plus one virtuoso etude by Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Debussy, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, or Bartok (etudes in slow tempos such as Chopin Op 10 #3, Op 10 #6, Op 25 #7, Rachmaninoff Op 39 #2 or Debussy Etude No. 11, pour les arpeges composes are not acceptable). The following lists repertoire requirements by degree for applicants invited to a live audition and those auditioning only by recording.Applicants must prepare an audition program to be performed from memory, including:•One virtuoso concert etude (see etude requirement listed above)•A work by Bach that contains a fugue•A complete classical sonata by Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, or Schubert•One Romantic work from the 19th century•One work from the 20th or 21st century
Here's a typical entrance audition requirement for a US conservatory:
You're making an assumption here: that less than optimal mechanics are important causes of injury and pure time spent practicing is not.
... there is also a point at which too much time causes injury regardless of how good the technique is.
Recreational students don't tend to get injured, at least we never hear about it on teacher forums.
We do hear constant complaints about them not practicing enough though! (and paying late, and missing lessons, but not getting hurt).
Serious students do get hurt, as a large number of studies show.
Students at the level of competing for those few conservatory spots didn't get to that level without excellent instruction. They are the best taught of any piano students.
(when you go to bed tonight I'll still be up - practicing YOUR part!)
.... the original Hanon topic which we long left behind.
I don't go about blindly guessing at things.
On the other hand, you're basing a lot if conclusions on a sample where N = 1 (yourself). What would LiW say? He rejected, after all, a sample that had 66% of every piano student at a conservatory responding as "puny". Careful now, you're going to incur his wrath, and you can never go back.
I was especially surprised to hear how much injury there is with young musicians.
Thinking about it, it does make sense. It takes a lot of effort to reach those levels of performance, a lot of hours sitting relatively motionless doing repetitive motions with high concentration and significant stress. Industrial operations with similar requirements (typist, machine operator, etc.) also produce injuries.
When there are a thousand applicants for each admission slot, all of them as talented as you, do you practice 3 hours a day knowing your peers are staying up practicing 6? Then when you get into a conservatory and find everybody is insanely talented, and only 1 of 100 graduates gets a job, do you relax and coast? It may even be that sleep deprivation is a large contributor to injury.
LiW believes injury does not exist.