Hanon and Other Excerises are VERY IMPORTANT

[keypeg]

I am only speaking from my experience of teaching 20+ years and hundreds of students as individuals, I just don't see students hurting themselves from piano.

I have read your posts for a number of years, and all of them suggest that you teach well and carefully.  Your students are therefore well guided and not misdirected.  Of course you won't see problems caused by bad teaching.  People do get hurt playing the piano, and often it is because of how they do things, not just how much they are doing it for how long.  I gave examples of specific instructions that would be harmful, and there was no response to those examples.

[lostinidlewonder]

You're deliberately being obtuse, which is not unusual for you.

Dude the paper even says the statistics is very wide open and not so accurate, its not something they can properly measure and apply just to piano. Injury must be lasting, if it is getting sore while practicing and they call that pain, I call that being a hypercondriac! If you get sore while practicing that is ok but you don't then go ahead and keep doing it until you really start feeling more permanent injury. When it comes to piano we should not see as many injuries as the other instruments imho, violin for instance to me seems tough to hold the posture like that for ages, I self taught myself violin and get so tired holding the instrument up! Or the small cramp chord positions of a guitar makes your hands screw up and contort in all sorts of strange ways, I am not a master of either of these instruments but compared to piano when I first played it, they feel a lot more difficult to physically play, I can't speak about injuries in these instruments only piano. So please forgive my "obtuse" responses lol.

The Peabody article is definitive.  79% of their incoming freshman have been injured.  Of course you wouldn't know what Peabody is, but it is a prestigious US musical conservatory.  Everybody entering is not only talented but has had the best instruction, or they wouldn't be there.  And they're still hurt.  

Ridiculous if you ask me, if there is such a high level of injury at the Peabody and they are supposed to be a reputable music school (i dunno if it is or not personally!) I wonder why not NOBODY goes there!

I don't believe Australians are any different.  I just believe you're blind to what goes on.  

Not blind, I am merely expressing my experience teaching students from 3-85+ years old over 20+ years and I have not come across students who tell me they have hurt themselves due to the work we are practicing. We work too hard on practice methodology to allow that to happen. I am guessing that some of these university music students are severely lacking in skill level or are given so much work that they must cram and hurt themselves, one wonders if such a path is worthwhile it certainly is not healthy! I am actually very glad to not have any experience with such injuries personally I would feel a huge failure if I allowed my students started to hurt themselves. I guess australians are just more laid back, they don't push themselves until they break, our mentality is mateship, we are in not in competition with our fellow citizens, America seems A LOT more competitive, maybe that is why people are hurting themselves, but is that piano or just the stress of it all?

[dogperson]

FWIW:
From my VERY limited perspective of four teachers in the US,  none of them discussed how to practice or how to avoid injury.   I guess I have been doing something instinctively right not to have had injury--- but this is a topic that should be an integral part of teaching. ... maybe it is, but just not with  the teachers I have had.

In addition, I have heard from a graduate of one of the prestigious piano conservatories in the US, that injury was prevalent in his time----- and that many students would sneak off for private lessons in the Taubman methodology.   Of course, I have only the anecdotal story and no supporting stats.   Maybe someone here is currently enrolled or a recent graduate that can provide information?  

[timothy42b]

I'm surprised that an experienced piano teacher remains ignorant of music conservatory education.

http://www.thebestschools.org/rankings/20-best-music-conservatories-u-s/

This is not a US invention; the US system is derived from European tradition:

http://www.onlineschoolscenter.com/posts/20-prestigious-music-degree-programs-world/

It's probably much easier to get into medical school than a music conservatory.  I'll leave it to you to figure out which one translates into a job.

Here is my theory.

The average piano student practicing 15 to 30 minutes a day is unlikely to get hurt.  They can have a lot of fun at that level of effort, and while they are not going to reach virtuoso levels they may eventually play simpler pieces quite capably. 

Reaching the higher levels demands more time commitment, and as the hours per day climb so does the risk.  You can mitigate it somewhat with correct technique, good instruction, and careful awareness, but you can't eliminate the risk of an inherently unnatural activity.  The internal drive that leads students to greatness also compels them to ignore "minor" complaints until they become major and sometimes permanent.

This is not dissimilar to sports.  Athletes at the higher levels all play hurt, and all retire with some lingering injury. 

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm surprised that an experienced piano teacher remains ignorant of music conservatory education.

How am I being ignorant of music conservatory education? Just because I don't personally know about an american music school doesn't mean anything at all, I have never visited america in my life. You think just because you can read about it it means you know about it all? I'd think you'd have to personally go to the schools and check it out, to me it would be ignorant to say you know how good a school is without even having stepped through its doors!!

This is not a US invention; the US system is derived from European tradition:

http://www.onlineschoolscenter.com/posts/20-prestigious-music-degree-programs-world/

It's probably much easier to get into medical school than a music conservatory.  I'll leave it to you to figure out which one translates into a job.

I'm not sure the relevance of this all though to the thread, pretty confusing .

Reaching the higher levels demands more time commitment, and as the hours per day climb so does the risk. 

I teach and have taught plenty of high level pianists who don't practice hours a day to improve so we can't put all advanced pianists in the same boat here. Just because music conservatory students cram and study hours a day doesn't mean that this is the only way to go about learning music and improving in the advanced areas.

You can mitigate it somewhat with correct technique, good instruction, and careful awareness, but you can't eliminate the risk of an inherently unnatural activity. 

The problem is pushing your body beyond what it can deal with no matter if your technique is good or not, of course if you have poor technique then your body can be pushed into discomfort much more rapidly compared to proper technique. Practice methods may allow you to work on passages without taxing your physical stamina and may totally avoid injury chances altogether. I really don't want to start a discussion presenting all of these practice methods here though. Someone who has injured themselves directly from over practicing piano really needs to reassess their practice approach, we all hopefully do want to play for a lifetime.

[lostinidlewonder]

FWIW:
From my VERY limited perspective of four teachers in the US,  none of them discussed how to practice or how to avoid injury.   I guess I have been doing something instinctively right not to have had injury--- but this is a topic that should be an integral part of teaching. ... maybe it is, but just not with  the teachers I have had.

I'd say your experience is pretty normal. So many students that come to me are pleasantly surprised when we start actually talking about HOW to practice instead of only WHAT to practice. I agree with you that all teachers should teach how to practice, it is a shame that they don't. You can get a lot of tips HOW to practice but the problem is that application to the pieces you are learning and your own physical and mental capability.

The thinking that needs to go behind the notes you play not just in terms of sound production and technique but observations of pattern I think is so important and the way we can think of a single passage can happen in many ways. Because of this you need a teacher who knows many ways to solve the same problem and know which one(s) works for a particular student. Of course if you analyze a piece of music with a beginner like something out of a doctoral thesis they will give you a blank stare, we have to work with the students current understanding and build upon that. Even at very high levels of music practice thinking you are not necessarily using high level theory to guide your thoughts, it is not always necessary, there are very simple thoughts that can exist at all levels.

I think so long you hit the right notes and make a good sound that satisfies many teachers, they don't care about how much time it took you to get there (and many exams all over the world don't either!). I've always considered the time from day one I started teaching and it is probably why I have always focused upon practice method and ensure my students know exactly how to practice the set work when I am not with them. When a student is practicing with me there I almost always avoid "you will get much better with more practice later" they must demonstrate a passage predominantly correct in our lesson, if I can't set this up I have overstepped the mark and either given a piece too difficult or too much work within a doable piece. We need control from the very start and avoid this brute force practice mentality.

Hanon and other exercises are great for beginners because you can give them a simple situation and ensure they play it appropriately. It is very difficult to say in words online how to practice hanon (or any other techniques for that matter) appropriately, it is something that needs to be worked on at a piano with the individual hands/minds in question. We can talk about things in generalizations but how it exactly should work for you is anyones guess. There are so many different ways someone can play something wrong and furthermore different steps of improvement for certain individuals that it would be silly to try and explain in words in such a way that every single error and variation in steps towards improvement that can be made is accounted for, it's just silly.

[keypeg]

I'd say your experience is pretty normal. So many students that come to me are pleasantly surprised when we start actually talking about HOW to practice instead of only WHAT to practice. I agree with you that all teachers should teach how to practice, it is a shame that they don't. You can get a lot of tips HOW to practice but the problem is that application to the pieces you are learning and your own physical and mental capability.

But that was my point!  It happens not only that students are not taught how to practice, but they can also be taught to do things that are harmful.  I gave the example of keeping the arms virtually motionless (thus stiff), so that a pencil can be balanced on them, and then raising the fingers high and perpetually curved in one shape, hammering them down with force.  This is extreme, but I have seen it.  Is it not possible that this can lead to injury, especially if the student is also pushed to practice a lot with that kind of approach?  Surely how we move plays a role!  If a student is guided half decently, especially in the area of how to practice, then some specific music such as the Hanon is not going to be harmful - but if misguided, maybe any music might be.  That is, it's not the music, but the how of the practising.  What do you think?

Like, when you talk about teaching the how of practising, I would think we're pretty well on the same page.

[timothy42b]

  Surely how we move plays a role!  If a student is guided half decently, especially in the area of how to practice, then some specific music such as the Hanon is not going to be harmful - but if misguided, maybe any music might be.  That is, it's not the music, but the how of the practising.  What do you think?

Like, when you talk about teaching the how of practising, I would think we're pretty well on the same page.

How to practice and how to play (mechanics) are two different things. 

The more correct our mechanics, I think the safer we are.  The more time we spend on repetitive similar motions the more at risk we are.  Clearly Hanon with the original instructions is unsafe, but a small amount of it is probably unlikely to hurt.  Hanon done with a more modern approach would have to be better.  But it is very repetitive and does not contain the variety of motions found in the repertoire, that allows muscles and tendons to relax and be stretched different directions.  So a heavy diet of it is probably more likely to cause problems than the same number of hours spent on more normal practice. 

[anamnesis]

Since when has individual, anecdotal experience been the gold standard of evidence when extrapolating to populations? 

http://search.informit.com.au/documentSummary;dn=516145657846429;res=IELHSS

[timothy42b]

Since when has individual, anecdotal experience been the gold standard of evidence when extrapolating to populations? 

http://search.informit.com.au/documentSummary;dn=516145657846429;res=IELHSS

Couldn't get your link to work. 

I thought the Peabody information significant.  I was surprised that people so young had already experienced injury, they tend to be more resilient.  L-I-w isn't familiar with conservatories but they are specialized music colleges that only accept the most accomplished students - you have to already play at a very high level to have a chance at acceptance. 

[anamnesis]

Couldn't get your link to work.  

I thought the Peabody information significant.  I was surprised that people so young had already experienced injury, they tend to be more resilient.  L-I-w isn't familiar with conservatories but they are specialized music colleges that only accept the most accomplished students - you have to already play at a very high level to have a chance at acceptance.  

I posted the link because it came from an Australian music education publication.  

Here's the abstract:

Pianists seem prone to Playing-Related Musculoskeletal Disorders (PRMDs), however little piano-specific epidemiological research into such disorders has been undertaken. This study aimed to establish the prevalence of PRMDs in a sample of elite (conservatory) pianists, identify associated risk factors and gather information regarding PRMD symptom distribution. A survey of pianists enrolled at a large Australian university keyboard conservatory was undertaken. Survey items were developed from qualitative research that validated a PRMD definition for pianists and identified relevant perceived risk factors. Univariate and multivariate statistical techniques were used. Sixty-eight percent of pianists reported experiencing symptoms that interfered with their piano playing in the week prior to completing the survey. Statistically significant risk factors associated with PRMDs following were high levels of perceived stress and self-reported increased muscle tension when playing the piano. Survey participants reporting both high stress and increased muscle tension had an 84% chance of having a PRMD. Anatomical areas most frequently affected by PRMD symptoms were the posterior neck, shoulders and upper middle back. Knowledge of these risk factors, and the anatomical areas frequently affected by PRMDs, can aid piano teachers in the recognition and management of these disorders in consultation with appropriate health professionals.


You can also look at Milanovic's dissertation on Taubman work to see her documentation of the research on PRMD's in Australia.

https://www120.secure.griffith.edu.au/rch/items/ee07feda-cb4d-6c45-b9fa-c7180d3bb35e/1/

[keypeg]

How to practice and how to play (mechanics) are two different things. 

They are part of the same equation, and both play a role.  I don't know what you have been taught by teachers on the "how to practice" side, so I don't know what kinds of things you are referring to.  What I know is that it is making a difference for me, and that the mechanics side of it intertwines with it.  More importantly is that it goes toward issues you mentioned.  It is not just a matter of how much time one spends.  Alternatively, ineffective practice also compounds the amount of time you spend.

How to practice includes things like working on new music in sections, not trying to bulldoze your way through, working in layers, analyzing the movement and noticing where there is tension and what to do about it.  It includes planning your practice over the days and weeks.  If there is a technical problem in the piece, maybe working it out outside of the piece and then bringing it into the piece.

Contrast this to just trying and trying and trying over a whole piece.  Meanwhile it intertwines with the mechanical, because as you learn to move in better ways for particular sections, that is the mechanical.

[timothy42b]

Contrast this to just trying and trying and trying over a whole piece.  Meanwhile it intertwines with the mechanical, because as you learn to move in better ways for particular sections, that is the mechanical.

I'm not so sure.

Playing over a whole piece is certainly the least efficient method of practice.  But it is probably protective of injury, due to the variety of motions and the chance to rest. 

[keypeg]

I'm not so sure.

Playing over a whole piece is certainly the least efficient method of practice.  But it is probably protective of injury, due to the variety of motions and the chance to rest. 

You spend more time since it's inefficient, fatigue yourself, and have a greater risk of using bad motions throughout.  I went through that, and the alternative.  I also suffered injury at one point, which is why this topic matters to me.
Are there any practice methods that you were taught that you found not useful in that regard?

[anamnesis]

How one understands "mechanics" certainly affects how one decides to practice. 

For example, I spend much less time doing HS practice, then when I was younger due to an increased understanding of the direction the arms move in relation (and coordinate) with each other while balancing out the torso.

I always felt a bit embarrassed that the supposedly simple task of scales being played in parallel always seemed so awkward to me. Finding out why was a vindication, completely changed my approach, and eliminated the main source of tension I ever experienced. 

[lostinidlewonder]

.... L-I-w isn't familiar with conservatories but they are specialized music colleges that only accept the most accomplished students - you have to already play at a very high level to have a chance at acceptance.  

Goodness me not familiar with conservatories? I've tutored students studying at conservatories here in Australia, please just because I admit I don't personally know about music schools in America don't go over exaggerating things now.

I am busy doing my own thing and working in my own musical groups to bother about what others do. I am actually glad I have nothing to do with all this injury, maybe I should prove a point that 100% of my students do not get injured due to piano playing, maybe I can start a famous school? lol

Playing over a whole piece is certainly the least efficient method of practice.

This is terrible advice and a sight reader will slap your face hard. In fact the most efficient way to learn your pieces is to read it from start to finish multiple times and then areas of attention will become clearer, much will automatically be memorized and learned without going step by step segment by segment. This all is a totally different discussion to this thread so I will not elaborate.

[timothy42b]

Goodness me not familiar with conservatories? I've tutored students studying at conservatories here in Australia,

Really.  Then go read amanensis's link again - 68% of conservatory students in Australia had an injury that limited their playing the week before the survey.  I think you're in denial. 

[keypeg]

Really.  Then go read amanensis's link again - 68% of conservatory students in Australia had an injury that limited their playing the week before the survey.  I think you're in denial.  

Tim, I'm finding this line to be confusing and distracting.  You stated twice that LiW is not familiar with conservatories, when what you are really doing is disputing things you have read about conservatories.  I wasted time yesterday looking through the thread several times trying to see where LiW had given any clue about no knowledge about conservatories.

The topic here is Hanon, similar exercises, and maybe issues of injury, non-injury, prevention or causes of injuries, since this comes up often.  The topic is not LiW's background, or whether he knows about conservatories.  But the topic has become his background, and that shouldn't be.

- Anamnesis' link does not provide any information on whether LiW knows about conservatories.  

[timothy42b]

- Anamnesis' link does not provide any information on whether LiW knows about conservatories.  

This is true.

But he insists that none of his students get injured, nor anybody he knows, and that he works with Australian conservatory students. 

Anamensis's link shows injuries at Australian conservatories.  My link shows injuries at and even prior to US conservatory entrance. 

So there's quite a serious disconnect here.

More of my peers are brass players.  As they age, most of them have had bouts with overuse or joint injuries sufficient to limit or avoid practice; many of them have to resort to mechanical aids to assist in supporting instruments.  That would be in line with the recognition that many instruments are not ergonomic, and may even be less ergonomic than piano, as LiW claims, but the other evidence does not support piano as being safe, as he continues to assert. 

[dcstudio]

Students sustain injuries because they try to play through the pain...no exercise in and of itself is to blame.

It's always user error.

Played safely, and correctly hanon is invaluable. The problem is that students tend to push way too hard to achieve velocity which only slows them down.  It takes a lighter touch for lightening speed and that is so hard for them to understand. Although I did plenty of piano exercise as a student, I got the most out of hanon after university during one of my obsessive playing periods.

It works.

[keypeg]

But he insists that none of his students get injured, nor anybody he knows, and that he works with Australian conservatory students. 

Anamensis's link shows injuries at Australian conservatories. 

The thing is that people work in isolation.  It is quite possible that LiW does not have students that injured, because of how he teaches, and it is equally possible that the conservatory students whom he happens to teach also do not get injured.  That is what he sees and knows.  Those students who have only had his guidance would be following the principles he has set out, and those principles would do a great deal to prevent injury.
I know a teacher who lives and works in an area where parents are in competition with each other, want their children to advance through grades very quickly, and there is a music school in the area that promotes how fast they can do those things.  So this teacher is likely to see particular things among his students because of his environment.  Another teacher in another environment will see something else.
It is one thing to talk of statistics that have been gathered.  It is another to doubt the veracity of a teacher's experience and background as he states it.

[keypeg]

Students sustain injuries because they try to play through the pain...no exercise in and of itself is to blame.

And/or have been taught to do the wrong things. 

It's always user error.

Yes, indeed.

Welcome back, btw.  You've been missed. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Really.  Then go read amanensis's link again - 68% of conservatory students in Australia had an injury that limited their playing the week before the survey.  I think you're in denial.  

You can take your statistics and shove it in a dark moist area is that clear enough for you to understand ?? Lololol. Statistics are not always reliable surely you know this? Well I can show how the stats are terrible in the next few posts then.

I teach music for 20+ years it is my life, I deal with society with actual people, I dont read random statistics papers and think I know it all lol. I deal with what I have seen and I have seen no injury from piano playing in my school, maybe it is because of my advice to students maybe it is because I don't push my students to practice 9 hours a day or pretend it's useful to only teach elite students who work so hard and are under so much pressure that they break? Please, just because one type of musical institution has all these injuries does that mean everyone must experience it? If we don't experience it we are not pushing ourselves? Lol! Ive taught hundreds of students over the years all individually maybe we are all just tough freak cases right? Mr Tim surely you not not going to disbelieve me you are welcome to come visit my students yourself (though they prolly wonder why a crazy person is wondering if they are injured) or I can write up a statistics paper for you with a big fat 0% for you to munch on.


You are not even accepting that 5-80% bounds in statistics is quite laughably inaccurate. You think you are superior and clever reading useless statistics but you have NO real life experience, so I'm afraid you look like a moron if you can't get it that there are actual professional teachers who know how to teach in such a way their students will not get injured. Oh but This paper says a maths % it must be true in all areas in this world! Please don't try debate me unless you actually have something lol. Injury needs to be lasting again I'll state if someone feels a little tried or sore while practicing they should stop, if a statistic then marks that as an injury that is a very hypercondriac take on what an injury is!

[dogperson]

You are very unusual then.  Other musicians know many people with injuries.  I know people with injuries.

http://www.wellbalancedpianist.com/pianoinjury.htm

Or from this one:
http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/past_issues/fall09/musician_heal_thyself.html

You say it's rare, Peabody says "the majority."  

From what I read, the Peabody article states the injury rate is at an UNNAMED institution.  In fact, didn't Peabody state they are well aware of the possibility of injuries and did not admit to a prevalence in their students?

Frankly, I find the well-balanced pianist  research quite outdated as there are not current research studies quoted and the musical world has become much more attuned to the possibility of injury, and hopefully teaching methodology has improved in that regard.  It would be interesting to see current statistics.   Regardless, I don't think the stats from something this old have credibility.

[dogperson]

duplicate post

[lostinidlewonder]

It happens not only that students are not taught how to practice, but they can also be taught to do things that are harmful.  I gave the example of keeping the arms virtually motionless (thus stiff), so that a pencil can be balanced on them, and then raising the fingers high and perpetually curved in one shape, hammering them down with force.

This is not "how" to practice IMO. How requires strategy of approach not specifically only what the motions should look like and we need deal with a students current understanding not merely copy/pasting ideas of mastery and hope it is acquired through brute force methodology.

[timothy42b]

The thing is that people work in isolation.   

Yes!  That's why it's so important to share ideas, to read the research, to have some idea of the statistics. 

It is quite possible that LiW does not have students that injured,

Sure.

because of how he teaches,

Well, maybe.  Might be for other reasons too.  Purely recreational students and enrichment students rarely practice enough to get hurt, and he indicates Australians are laid back and uncompetitive, at least the ones he knows. 

 

and it is equally possible that the conservatory students whom he happens to teach also do not get injured.

No, that one I don't buy.  That's like saying gymnasts or wrestlers don't get hurt. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Well, maybe.  Might be for other reasons too.  Purely recreational students and enrichment students rarely practice enough to get hurt, and he indicates Australians are laid back and uncompetitive, at least the ones he knows.  

 
No, that one I don't buy

Tim what you KNOW and THINK are two different things. Especially your assumption on the students I teach goodness me have you a crystal ball? Lol stop your assumptions on me. I said uncompetitive since if people are in the USA practicing so hard they injure themselves they must be super competitive to an extreme level.

[brogers70]

Here's a non-paywalled link to that study of piano related injuries among students at a conservatory.

http://www98.griffith.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/handle/10072/49098/79199_1.pdf?sequence=1

[timothy42b]

I said uncompetitive since if people are in the USA practicing so hard they injure themselves they must be super competitive to an extreme level.

You don't think admission to a music conservatory is competitive?  Seriously? 

[keypeg]

edit

[keypeg]

You don't think admission to a music conservatory is competitive?  Seriously? 

Can we PLEASE get back on the topic and stay there?
LiW's background is NOT the topic!!!

[keypeg]

Reposted in order to move this discussion back on topic.

Purely recreational students and enrichment students rarely practice enough to get hurt.

I disagree.  (I'm not sure what an "enrichment" student is).  Again, my premise is that HOW one practises is very important in this regard.  That means not just length of time, but "technical" things which I have defined before, so I'd like that term not to be turned into something else.  This is also something we can do something about.  It's a teaching forum.

The recreational student is the most likely to be taught carelessly without proper guidance.  Therefore quite likely to get injured.  In fact, because I was perceived that way, I came close to permanent injury on another instrument.

[timothy42b]

Here's a non-paywalled link to that study of piano related injuries among students at a conservatory.

http://www98.griffith.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/handle/10072/49098/79199_1.pdf?sequence=1

Thanks for finding that.  Very interesting.

The mean age of the students was 20.2, and the mean length of piano study 13.2 years.  This goes to show what it takes to compete at that elite level.  They must have averaged starting at age 7. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Well if a sample of 87 is supposed to say much I'm missing it. Wow 87 people now we know how the world works for sure!!

[keypeg]

(sigh)

[lostinidlewonder]

You don't think admission to a music conservatory is competitive?  Seriously? 

Not really, we don't have insane schools charging hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees like the USA.

[keypeg]

I just read the study.  For practical purposes in terms of teaching and learning (which is what the teaching forum is about) I found it useless.  It did not look at how the pianists practised, how they had been taught, their formation - hardly anything valid or useful.  The only things I could see were "seating" and "posture".  The "posture" thing itself is problematic because of what it entails, and they don't actually define what they mean by posture.

The complete turn-off was when one of the conclusions was to have seating with a back rest.  That, and the other thing in there, suggested that by "seating" they did not mean height, distance, and movement, but the physical bench or chair the pianist sat in.  One component for non-injury is the ability to move and use your whole body in a well-balanced way.  You shift your weight in the hips and buttocks and also may move your legs and feet.  The "back rest" idea immediately nixes that and suggests a lack of understanding.  Unsurprising since those doing the study were not teachers of piano, but physiotherapists who needed to create a simplistic survey.

I have put forth concrete things several times.  So have a few others.  They have been consistently ignored.  Instead we kept being brought back, over and over, to LiW's background and the nature of Australia, as though that had anything to do with anything.

[keypeg]

LiW - Is it possible that by and large in your neck of the woods piano is taught intelligently?

[lostinidlewonder]

Threads rarely stay on track I think cos people want to discuss what they want not the issue at hand lol. I know people injure themselves but I don't think it has anything to do with good/bad technique the crux of the problem is practicing so much that you cause yourself harm. Sure this might be a desperate situation for people with conditions caused NOT from piano but is aggravated by piano playing. In this case you can't say piano causes pain because the injury was acquired elsewhere. It is not intelligent to see a man playing with a broken arm complaining it hurts and associate that pain from piano, really , really dumb study if that's the case! Think people, put ur thinking caps on! Neck pain? You don't play piano with the neck.

Fwiw I have taught students who suffered strokes, who are physically handicapped, who have nerve damage, repetitive stress damage etc, of course these are not caused from piano but how they approach their practice must be different to "normal" bodies, this is because playing the piano no matter how well can cause discomfort to their body.

[timothy42b]

The recreational student is the most likely to be taught carelessly without proper guidance.  

You're making an assumption here: that less than optimal mechanics are important causes of injury and pure time spent practicing is not.  

That is possible but not proven, and I see some reasons to doubt it.

I suspect a minimum amount of time is necessary to cause injury regardless of how bad the technique is, and there is also a point at which too much time causes injury regardless of how good the technique is.

My reason for thinking that is this.  Recreational students don't tend to get injured, at least we never hear about it on teacher forums.  We do hear constant complaints about them not practicing enough though!  (and paying late, and missing lessons, but not getting hurt).  

Serious students do get hurt, as a large number of studies show.  Students at the level of competing for those few conservatory spots didn't get to that level without excellent instruction.  They are the best taught of any piano students.  They also put in the largest number of hours practicing.  Though it is claimed here that you don't need those hours, the students who win those slots would differ.  (when you go to bed tonight I'll still be up - practicing YOUR part!)

I'm thinking mostly of overuse, cumulative trauma disorder type injuries, because that would seem to have the closest relationship to the original Hanon topic which we long left behind.

I haven't touched on focal dystonias, which I think are probably conceptually different.  But a) I don't see any obvious relationship to Hanon, and b) I'm pretty sure it would enrage LiW even further.  

[lostinidlewonder]

...Recreational students don't tend to get injured, at least we never hear about it on teacher forums....
Serious students do get hurt, as a large number of studies show.  

A large number of studies hey? So there must be some statistic that is pretty good a big sample of thousands and thousands of pianists? You fail to appreciate those who experience no injury or pain at all, are you saying it is impossible to never experience pain at the high levels? Show me the paper that says 100% of professional pianists suffer injuries throughout their career. Oh that's right it's not there, not even the weak statistics presented in this thread say that They should ask me, then it will be 99.99% are injured i guess... no wait i think I know a few more... yep i can get them to sign on ahahah

I haven't touched on focal dystonias, which I think are probably conceptually different.  But a) I don't see any obvious relationship to Hanon, and b) I'm pretty sure it would enrage LiW even further.  

Enrage me now? Still working those assumptions to the max hey lol. Yes this is not a thread about HANON CAN INJURE YOU OR NOT, though its nice to see some activity here on some type of music talk lol.

[timothy42b]

I just read the study.  For practical purposes in terms of teaching and learning (which is what the teaching forum is about) I found it useless. 

It's not useless just because it didn't answer all your questions.  There is still something to be learned from it even though we could want to know more.

The Peabody article I cited earlier found a high rate of injury in incoming freshman at a conservatory.  However, it was not instrument specific, and it was in the US.  So you could potentially make the claim, as LiW did, that piano is different in being innocuous, and that Australia is different in being noncompetitive.

The Australian article is specifically about pianists at an Australian conservatory.  We don't know how they were taught, but we do know they are the cream of the crop of performance oriented pianists, that they average 13 years of instruction starting around age 7, and that they perform at professional levels.  Have you seen the lists of audition materials required at those places?  They beat out their peers for those limited number of slots by working hard and by finding the best teachers possible.  They were not taught by unqualified neighborhood teachers hanging out a shingle, like we see in the US. 

[lostinidlewonder]

It's not useless just because it didn't answer all your questions.

Yeah it is somewhat useless because of its puny sample of 87 people. They also don't wonder whether these injuries originated from activities other than piano playing or the medical history of each sample. Like I said, its not very smart wondering why a man with a broken arm feels pain when playing piano.

https://www.acatoday.org/Patients/Health-Wellness-Information/Back-Pain-Facts-and-Statistics
Wow about 80% of people experience back pain.... Now what happens if one of them play piano, oh its piano fault now right?

[timothy42b]

Here's a typical entrance audition requirement for a US conservatory:

Applied Majors pre-screening requirement: Before December 1, all undergraduate piano performance applicants seeking a live audition must upload a preliminary audition recording. The prescreening recording must be a minimum of 30 minutes in duration of solo music. Repertoire requirements for the pre-screening recording must  include at least two works representing different styles, plus one virtuoso etude by Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff,  Scriabin, Debussy, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, or Bartok (etudes in slow tempos such as Chopin Op 10 #3, Op 10 #6, Op 25 #7, Rachmaninoff Op 39 #2 or Debussy Etude No. 11, pour les arpeges composes are not acceptable). The following lists repertoire requirements by degree for applicants invited to a live audition and those auditioning only by recording.

Applicants must prepare an audition program to be performed from memory, including:
•One virtuoso concert etude (see etude requirement listed above)
•A work by Bach that contains a fugue
•A complete classical sonata by Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, or Schubert
•One Romantic work from the 19th century
•One work from the 20th or 21st century

[lostinidlewonder]

Here's a typical entrance audition requirement for a US conservatory:

Why isn't hanon in there? Oh there it is!!!... oh no it was Haydn...

[keypeg]

You're making an assumption here: that less than optimal mechanics are important causes of injury and pure time spent practicing is not.  

I don't go about blindly guessing at things.  I also did not refer to "optimal mechanics".  I am going by:
- personal experience as an adult student, both in regards to problems first time round which came close to creating permanent injury, and in regards to alternate approaches and the good things that created (as expected)
- having worked with / helped students in that situation and watching things improve and change.  Often that led to a leg up to proper teaching / better teaching by another teacher.  Again it has been observation.
- what I have been told privately, in depth, by a few teachers whose opinion I have reason to trust.  Again a lot of factual things.
 

...  there is also a point at which too much time causes injury regardless of how good the technique is.

Undoubtedly doing anything to the point of exhaustion will cause muscles to seize up, the mind to lose alertness and therefore bad injurious movements etc. But if spending too much time can cause injury, that does not mean that poor movement and no guidance does not.

 Recreational students don't tend to get injured, at least we never hear about it on teacher forums.

You don't in fact know whether "recreational" students get injured.  You also cannot base yourself on the bits and pieces you can glean on a teacher forum.  There is very little interest in this kind of student, so it's not discussed much.  There is also misteaching of this kind of student, and thus wrong teacher attitude can lead to problems.

We do hear constant complaints about them not practicing enough though!  (and paying late, and missing lessons, but not getting hurt).

We also hear constant complaints about child students not practicing enough. Do you really think that if a teacher has a student who got injured under his watch, that he's going to advertise it?

Serious students do get hurt, as a large number of studies show.  

Studies will study these students, in particular types of institutions.  

Students at the level of competing for those few conservatory spots didn't get to that level without excellent instruction.  They are the best taught of any piano students.  

Do what I did.  Start talking to people in private.  Hear their stories.  You'll get a few surprises.  You can get instructions that will make you excel in the type of thing you get tested on, while not getting the kind of thing that prevents injury.

 (when you go to bed tonight I'll still be up - practicing YOUR part!)

I quite doubt that.  I went to bed at 3:30 a.m. last night, having found some quality practice time.  You were up at 4:00 a.m. practicing my part?    I will also say that I reach things in a quarter of the time that I did in the past, because I have learned how to work effectively.

....  the original Hanon topic which we long left behind.

You may have left it behind, but I haven't left it behind.  In fact, I've tried to bring it back repeatedly.  I have stressed the HOW - the details are in my previous post somewhere back there.

[timothy42b]

I don't go about blindly guessing at things.  

No, you don't, I agree.  You put a lot of thought into this.

On the other hand, you're basing a lot if conclusions on a sample where N = 1 (yourself).  What would LiW say?  He rejected, after all, a sample that had 66% of every piano student at a conservatory responding as "puny".  Careful now, you're going to incur his wrath, and you can never go back.

I had opinions similar to yours, until I read some of the research.  I'd always heard the occasional injury report, even have a few friends who've gone through rehab, but I had no idea of the prevalence among serious musicians.  I was especially surprised to hear how much injury there is with young musicians.  I'm mid 60s and most of my peers are as well, we expect some aches and pains along the way, but kids heal faster. 

Thinking about it, it does make sense.  It takes a lot of effort to reach those levels of performance, a lot of hours sitting relatively motionless doing repetitive motions with high concentration and significant stress.  Industrial operations with similar requirements (typist, machine operator, etc.) also produce injuries. 

The throwaway line about staying up late was humor - that's a standard line among musicians.  But there is some point to it.  When there are a thousand applicants for each admission slot, all of them as talented as you, do you practice 3 hours a day knowing your peers are staying up practicing 6?  Then when you get into a conservatory and find everybody is insanely talented, and only 1 of 100 graduates gets a job, do you relax and coast?  It may even be that sleep deprivation is a large contributor to injury.

You and I are arguing a different point than LiW, though.  I see injury as time and technique caused, with time being the larger factor among elite and well trained, while you believe technique to be much more significant.  LiW believes injury does not exist.

Later on when I have access I'll post a couple of trumpet videos, if you're interested.  They are both professional soloists with performing careers.  One appears to be playing mechanically correctly, the other not;  both play at a high level but the prediction is that over time the one may not be able to sustain the level of play with talent alone.   

[lostinidlewonder]

On the other hand, you're basing a lot if conclusions on a sample where N = 1 (yourself).  What would LiW say?  He rejected, after all, a sample that had 66% of every piano student at a conservatory responding as "puny".  Careful now, you're going to incur his wrath, and you can never go back.

Keypeg is not using her info to say she believes that my high level students must feel pain or its not true. So far all statistics on pain thrown on this thread is rather flimsy and you are trying to use it as evidence for your disbelief in my account of hundreds of students.

I was especially surprised to hear how much injury there is with young musicians.  

I bet if many of these musicians worked desk jobs they would probably have the same injuries

Thinking about it, it does make sense.  It takes a lot of effort to reach those levels of performance, a lot of hours sitting relatively motionless doing repetitive motions with high concentration and significant stress.  Industrial operations with similar requirements (typist, machine operator, etc.) also produce injuries.

Hours sitting motionless is not a piano posture that is recommended. The act of sitting for so long whether you play piano or not will probably cause you harm wont it? How can one then attribute piano playing as the culprit???
 

When there are a thousand applicants for each admission slot, all of them as talented as you, do you practice 3 hours a day knowing your peers are staying up practicing 6?  Then when you get into a conservatory and find everybody is insanely talented, and only 1 of 100 graduates gets a job, do you relax and coast?  It may even be that sleep deprivation is a large contributor to injury.

Are you saying that all high level pianists come from graduates only? You are severely underestimating what kind of musicians are out there. You can also study music externally and at a much slower rate at many universities, why are you only considering competitive institutions? These certainly do not represent the majority of high level pianists out there.

LiW believes injury does not exist.

Yes we are all immortal gods.... goodness me tim.. Injury should not exist if your body is healthy and you approach your practice appropriately. If you push yourself to breaking point what do you expect? That is not the pianos fault that is your fault for not listening to your body, it is your fault for not having a methodology which allows you to conserve energy while still solving your problems. Many people have preexisting conditions which are aggravated by piano playing but you cannot say it is piano playing that is the reason for their pain. Some pianists simply have no hope for high level playing because their body is broken.

[timothy42b]

One thing that makes piano different from many instruments is that you can't play it in marching band.

Let me explain.  Sitting for long periods of time is inherently bad for the human body; I think we could agree on that.  Well, most of us.  (LiW of course believes that sitting at a piano will magically protect one from injury.)

Some instruments can be played easily in various positions.  Keypeg plays violin, which can be played and practiced sitting or standing or even dancing, allowing some flexibility and some variety.  Same with me on trombone, recorder, etc.  Occasionally I play in a parade, and I prepare for that by playing scales while walking on one of those jogging trampolines. 

Other instruments can be played standing with some difficulty but are traditionally played seated, like cello, tuba.  Others are pretty much standing only, like double bass.

The other seated instruments do allow some flexibility in posture and grip.  You can adjust the length of your cello peg, and place it forward or back.

Piano is nearly unique in having a fixed dimension instrument.  You can usually adjust your bench height, but other than that you are totally forced to comply with it's requirements.