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Topic: Sight-reading Choral Music  (Read 3810 times)

Offline florentin

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Sight-reading Choral Music
on: November 03, 2005, 06:49:26 AM
Hello all,

I am a classical guitarist, an average piano player, and a music teacher. I teach two choruses also, one at the school and one at my church.

I want to improve my sight-reading skills, and I seem to be stuck. I would like to be able to read four part harmony, like easy hymns and such, but I don't seem to get it together.

Here's what happens.

At choir practice, I play each part pretty well. I can also play two parts together, almost any difficulty level. When I add a third and a fourth voice, things get messy. I cannot really do it, unless I slow down so much, that the piece has no more flow to it. I am a pretty good improviser, so if I look at the piece, I can tell what it sounds like BEFORE I play it, most of the time, and also if I hear it once, I can play an accompaniment. I just have a hard time playing exactly "as written".

I know accompanists read stuff like that at first sight. I don't mean Bach and Beethoven, but simple four-part hymns.

Is there something I can do to improve my sight-reading, besides just practicing more? Is there a specific thing people do to improve sight-reading? 

Thank you for your help in advance.
"Piano Devotions For Little Fingers" Book/CD
Original Hymn Arrangements
Score • Story • Lesson • Devotion
https://www.florentintise.com/

Offline quantum

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #1 on: November 03, 2005, 09:46:59 AM
I often find old hymn books at second hand book stores for only a few dollars, get a thick one for you to practice your reading. 

You've made the first step in reading only two voices in isolation.  This is often required at choir rehearsals, so practice all combinations of two voice reading in SATB. 

I find the trickiest part of SATB sightreading is 1) polyphonic movment of voices and 2) such polyphonic movments don't usually fit well with the fingers.  There is usually a need to divide the voices differently than written between the hands.  I usually find it necessary to study a hymn in advance, and where hand divisions change write them down in the score.  This is important as it is easy to forget your fingering when concerntrating on choir and sightreading.  This will also help you get back on your feet if you do loose yourself. 

One thing to practice is hands separately.  Eg: SA only, TB only.  This will get you to concentrate on finger independence for each seperate hand. 

If at any time you loose yourself in a hymn, Bass has the utmost improtance followed by Soprano.  If you loose the Soprano melody most likely the choir can continue as the tune is usually the easiest to follow.  If all else fails, play the single Bass line - it will keep your choir in tune.  Without solid bass, the choir may drift off course. 

Another thing that helps is recognizing the function of the chords the choir is singing.  There are also chord voice leadings that are typical of the SATB style, if you begin to recognize these you will have less of a hassle reading notes then seeing a familiar pattern. 

Practice reading Bach chorales.  I know they are difficult, but don't just sight read, study one intently before moving on to another.  It gets easier as you do more.  After playing Bach, others will seem much easier. 

Another thing that helps is familiarity with the keyboard topography.  Know how to feel your way to find notes most of the time, instead of looking down.  SATB usually has your fingers crawling and manouvering in and out of keys instead of jumping.  After a while you will sort of develop a sense of automatic fingering when reading SATB.  Feel free to use pedal to preserve the legato from chord to chord, but try not to blur the voice leading. 
 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline darla

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #2 on: November 03, 2005, 03:50:32 PM
Quantum,
Great information. I am also having sight-reading problems (with Bach Chorales) playing hands together. It is driving me crazy as I can't determine when to play TB in the left hand versus B only in the left hand and SAT in the right hand.

If it is not too much trouble maybe you (or anybody else) could go through your sight-reading thought process of the first few measures of Bach Chorale #1 (Riemenschneider edition. #30 in Kalmus I think). 

Thanks for your insights.
D-

Offline florentin

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #3 on: November 03, 2005, 09:20:20 PM
Quantum,

Thank you for your advice. I will have to try some of your ideas. The accompanist we had before could easily sight-read hymns, no problem. Well, he would sight-read difficult piano accompaniments too, so I guess hymns were actually easier for him to read.

I wonder to what extent other pianists "improvise" on their reading. Like I said before, when I can't read on the spot, I usually keep on playing, and I don't think many people notice the difference, well, except for me and my aide...

Last night our choir was learning a Carol, SATB. I new the tune, and the harmonies, but I could not read the score note for note. I improvised it. That is bad, right? I would like to be able to read SATB scores note for note, at first sight. Is that going to take me 20 years?

thank you for your help so far...  :)
"Piano Devotions For Little Fingers" Book/CD
Original Hymn Arrangements
Score • Story • Lesson • Devotion
https://www.florentintise.com/

Offline Tash

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #4 on: November 04, 2005, 03:16:51 AM
i've been doing a small amount of SABT score reading this year, half of them using alto and tenor clefs which was an absolute pregnant dog cos i kept getting all my clefs muddled up. but i think the only thing you can do is practice your sightreading every day. like don't just do one, do a few and make sure you're working really hard. i don't think it'll take you 20 years but it will take some time, you just have to get used to looking at more than 1 clef at a time (and i was having a whinge about not being used to looking at more than 2 clefs at a time until i remembered that i'm one of the few piano majors in the class and the rest are off looking at one clef the rest of the time so that shut me up!)
improvising, i guess it wouldn't be a huge crime provided you're still playing the right chord. are you just accompanying the piece or meant to be playing the actual parts of the voices so they know where they're going? if it's the latter then improvising might not be a great idea cos you'd confuse the hell out of them.
like, i'm just an amateur in this area, my knowledge is restricted to the small amount of SABT reading i've done and my experiences in choir so if there's some amazing way to suddenly be able to sightread it fluently i have no idea!
'J'aime presque autant les images que la musique' Debussy

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #5 on: November 04, 2005, 07:51:55 AM
I am interested in anything you come with.

Hymns don't look hard but they are.  Frequently in churches I've attended a guest organist or piano player does a dazzling prelude of some amazingly difficult work then stumbles miserably through the hymns.  This is despite the fact there are never more than four notes at a time and they never move very fast.  We're talking quarter notes at 80 to 104 - shouldn't be a problem but it is. 

The regular organist makes it look easy, but I suspect deception is involved.  There are only about 700 hymns in most hymnals, some of which share tunes, and some of which you never use.  It isn't any great trick to simply learn all 300 common ones!   

My teacher has suggested some ways to simplify hymn accompaniment and this works for congregational singing, but is a disaster if anybody tries to sing parts.  In my tradition (Episcopal) both choir and congregation members feel authorized to sing parts.  Observation:  missed accidentals don't raise anybody's eyebrows in church, but hesitations drive them nuts, gotta keep driving the beat. 
Tim

Offline florentin

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #6 on: November 05, 2005, 05:13:20 AM
Wasn't really trying to come up with a quick fix. I know there's no such thing.

I played piano for many years, but it is not my primary instrument. I even did two years of piano class in college. My repertoire includes Clementi, Bach, some Mozart, other easy method pieces.

I was reading some English carols today, at first sight. It was pretty good. It just seems to me that hymns, and choral accompaniments are different than a piano piece. I just want to be able to learn the piano part or the SATB part quickly, like in one sitting, maybe two.

Thank you all for your advice so far.

 :)
"Piano Devotions For Little Fingers" Book/CD
Original Hymn Arrangements
Score • Story • Lesson • Devotion
https://www.florentintise.com/

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #7 on: November 05, 2005, 03:09:44 PM
I just want to be able to learn the piano part or the SATB part quickly, like in one sitting, maybe two.

Thank you all for your advice so far.

 :)

I know this is possible because I know people who do it.  (I'm not one of them.) 

One of the regular posters here, I think abel88, suggested a strategy:  use R3,4,5 for S, R1,2 for A, L1 for T, and L5 for Bass.  What is important about that approach I think is that it will often not be the optimum fingering choice but should always work.  (sometimes you'll leave out tenor)  This music isn't technically difficult enough to require the optimum fingering, just a practical system that will usually work.  I have started to try it, not made much progress but it is promising. 
Tim

Offline florentin

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #8 on: November 05, 2005, 05:01:38 PM
ok, so what do you do when the voices are close together? What if the bass and the tenor are singing a G and an A, just a step apart? You're still going to use L1 and L5?

sorry, that doesn make sense to me, yet, but I'll have to try it.

I still think I need more finger flexibility, and choice, than that.

Thank you for the suggestion.  :)
"Piano Devotions For Little Fingers" Book/CD
Original Hymn Arrangements
Score • Story • Lesson • Devotion
https://www.florentintise.com/

Offline maryruth

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #9 on: November 05, 2005, 05:27:47 PM
Okay...I do this all the time (I'm a church accompanist).  I find this fairly easy, but there are some things that make it easier or harder and it (for me) has to do with the print set up of the music. 

How many verses are printed in between the treble and bass clef?  I have found (particularly when I first started) that the more verses that were written in between, the more difficult it was to sightread as the notes were too far apart to take in.   Make some photo copies and fold or cut and paste to see if that helps.

I think the more hymns you play the better you get.  It's combining sight chord recognition with ear training.  Most hymns follow predictable cadences so I think that combining what you see with what you feel the resolution will be makes it easier.

As far as when to combine tenor voice with the right hand.  If you can't reach the bass and tenor notes with the left hand, put the tenor voice in the right hand.  If you can't reach the tenor voice with either hand, leave it out--particularly during the service. 

Also, when playing during the church service on the piano (without organ) to make the sound carry, I find that playing all bass notes one octave lower than written helps project the sound--I also will play the bass notes as octaves (one octave lower than written) and leave the tenor voice out.  This helps create a fuller sound, which is what you want if the room is large and there is no organ playing.

Offline florentin

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #10 on: November 05, 2005, 05:44:31 PM
thank you Mary.

I understand exactly what you are saying about the spacing on the paper, and also about seeing and "hearing" the chord on the paper.

I see the chord, and I hear most of them in my head before I play them - I just need some time to actually play it with my fingers, so it matches the sound in my head.

Does that sound weird?

thank you for your suggestions.  :)
"Piano Devotions For Little Fingers" Book/CD
Original Hymn Arrangements
Score • Story • Lesson • Devotion
https://www.florentintise.com/

Offline abell88

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #11 on: November 05, 2005, 08:29:23 PM
Quote
ok, so what do you do when the voices are close together? What if the bass and the tenor are singing a G and an A, just a step apart? You're still going to use L1 and L5?

No, of course you play them with L1 and L2, or whatever makes sense in context. However, much of the time you will find 5 or 4 on B, 1 or 2 on T will work.

Also, if the tenor is too far from the bass and from the S and A, you can put the tenor note up an octave. It's not always okay to leave it out; if it's the 3rd of the chord the chord will sound empty without it. Mind you, it's better to leave it out than to break the rhythm. Let the notes fall where they may, but keep the beat going!

I used to be a horrendously bad sight reader. One summer my teacher lent me a hymn book and I sight-read 600+ hymns...5 or 10 at a time. I can't say it helped that much, but what did help was becoming an accompanist at a time when our church favoured very informal evening services...informal being defined as the songleader asking what people would like to sing, and my having to play it on the spot.  :P

Offline quantum

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #12 on: November 05, 2005, 10:00:57 PM
Darla, I don't have those books but if you could scan the hymn I'd be happy to work through it with you. 

I also find that sometimes the music spacing is not ideal for sightreading or performance.  Therefore I almost always renotate any hymns I perform using Finale.  As time goes on, I have an ever growing collection in my own edition that I can edit for optimal reading.  Maryruth's photocopy idea is good. 

If you want to secure your methods of fingering I'd suggest learning some double note etudes and similar pieces that require two simultaneous notes or some notes to be held.  It would help you discover fingering possibilities for different situations of double notes.  This isn't necessary however, but can help you get accustomed to using such fingerings. 

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline florentin

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #13 on: November 05, 2005, 10:25:47 PM
In a master class once, I heard the teacher tell us that orchestral piano reductions, or piano arrangements of orchestral works, are great for improving sight-reading. Naturally... they take you all across the keyboard, and they often use "fat" chords.

I have a nice piano arrangement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. Maybe I should try that... It is pretty hard to play.

I kind of like the idea with the Finale re-writing. That would be great, if I had the time to do it.

Thank you for all your suggestions.
"Piano Devotions For Little Fingers" Book/CD
Original Hymn Arrangements
Score • Story • Lesson • Devotion
https://www.florentintise.com/

Offline g_s_223

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #14 on: November 05, 2005, 11:58:52 PM
I have pretty good sight-reading and I ascribe this, as suggested above, to ploughing through lots of piano reductions/transcriptions, plus also many vocal scores of operas and oratorios.

For the Beethoven symphonies, the Liszt transcriptions are definitely not for a casual read-through since they are very complex as a consequence of Liszt's desire to remain absolutely faithful to Beethoven's intentions. There are several other "simplified" transcriptions in circulation which are easier to play (and correspondingly less faithful).

On the other hand, it's fair to say that these transcriptions and vocal scores are generally pretty functional and do not set out to be idiomatic and fluent piano music. So, it could be argued they are not as "ideal" for technique building as directly conceived piano music. However, they do have a role in sight-reading, and should you want to become a repetiteur.

 :)

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #15 on: November 06, 2005, 12:37:38 AM
i'm also a fairly good sight reader, but have a similar problem with looking at four voices at once.  i often reduce them myself at home and practice a lot until they are under my fingers kinda by memory or i just write in the lower voices to the two upper lines if there's no time.  then, i only have to read two lines.

there's no embarassment to admitting your limitations, and often in choirs there's someone else who can play piano, too. you can play 'duet' with four voices if they get complicated (crossing voices, extreme rhythmic difficulties)

the last master chorale i was involved with...there were actually four accompanists and we would each go into separate practice rooms for twenty minutes and work the parts individually with section.  then, when they were put together, there would be a section leader responsible for catching most of the mistakes in notes and rhythm.   that left the conductor free to work the musicality more than the notes and rhythms.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #16 on: November 06, 2005, 12:51:00 AM
w

onder if finale or sibelius would be a good thing to use to reduce the score to readability and also color the individual lines (or notes) according to voice.  it seems that one thing accompanists sometimes lack is time to practice adequately.  that's where having it written out is nice.  of course, if you are good at improvising, you might also have an advantage in sibelius or finale of actually hearing it the night before and attempting to imitate as best you can.  if a few notes are left out when people know their parts pretty well, no one notices much.

i think, even with jr and highschool choirs, delegation helps the students take on more responsibility for what happens.  instead of instant perfection, maybe the part-leaders could be asked after the first run through if they noticed anything well done or not so well done.   reassigning part-leaders every week would give everyone a chance to increase their musicality and sight reading, too.   

Offline cfortunato

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #17 on: November 06, 2005, 12:52:19 AM
Actually, SATB is how I practice sight-reading, because I find it harder to read than just about anything else.  When I'm being productive, I go through all the hymns every Sunday that were sung at church.  I have six hymn books.  I have no idea how to make it easier - it's just murderously hard.

I suspect that those who read them in church cheat, using the Bass register as a chord indicator.  AS far as I'm concerned, it really isn't what you SHOULD play as accompaniment - it's for voices, not piano.  The best accompaniment is probably to improvise, using the indicated chords as a foundation.

Offline florentin

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #18 on: November 06, 2005, 07:03:53 AM
I understand what you are saying, and I am "guilty" of improvising the part most of the times. I would like to play what is written though... Many times, the conductor wants to hear exactly what is written.

I also enjoy the sound of SATB. It is a clean, pure, balanced sound. Someone took a long time to think about mixing the voices a certain way, in order for them to sound good together - I want to play THAT!
"Piano Devotions For Little Fingers" Book/CD
Original Hymn Arrangements
Score • Story • Lesson • Devotion
https://www.florentintise.com/

Offline abell88

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #19 on: November 06, 2005, 08:51:05 PM
I am not sure if this has been mentioned here, but it also helps to concentrate on the way the voices move, rather than their actual notes. That is, if you play the first chord correctly, then don't think about the note names for the next chord, just take note that the soprano and alto go up one, the tenor goes up and the bass goes down, or whatever.

Then when you're ready(!), pick something fairly easy and after sight reading it, put it up or down a key...if you can sight transpose you will really endear yourself to the choir master!

Offline darla

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #20 on: November 07, 2005, 12:33:18 AM
Thanks Quantum for the kind offer--I'm trying to find someone to help me scan the Chorale.

On a somewhat related topic, does anyone know of a large book of hymns, specifically arranged for the piano?

Thanks,
D-

Offline Bob

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #21 on: November 07, 2005, 02:45:56 AM
Study chords and progressions. 

Be able to play chords and progressions on the piano.

Be able to recognize them on the page.


That should make basic hymns a lot easier.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline florentin

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #22 on: November 07, 2005, 09:02:02 PM
Bob, I agree. I think that reading chords, lots of them, and chord etudes, would help me a lot to improve my sight-reading abilities.  What chord etudes are out there for the piano?

I play the guitar, so when I want to play chord etudes, I look at Villa Lobos, like his Etude No. 12 for the guitar. What chord etudes are out there for the piano?
"Piano Devotions For Little Fingers" Book/CD
Original Hymn Arrangements
Score • Story • Lesson • Devotion
https://www.florentintise.com/

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #23 on: November 09, 2005, 03:58:20 PM
What are chord etudes?  I don't know that term. It sounds useful though, at least for my purposes.
Tim

Offline florentin

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #24 on: November 09, 2005, 11:01:01 PM
Well, I am a guitarist, so for the guitar, a chord etude is a study in chords.

Czerny maybe... did he write any chord etudes?
"Piano Devotions For Little Fingers" Book/CD
Original Hymn Arrangements
Score • Story • Lesson • Devotion
https://www.florentintise.com/

Offline Rach3

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #25 on: November 10, 2005, 08:59:28 AM
I recommend you work on many of the Bach Inventions and Sinfonias. They're of a very different form of counterpoint from Chorales and hymns; nevertheless they can teach you how to approach counterpoint on the keyboard.

"Chord etudes" aren't really that relevant; chords are of a mostly "vertical" structure, whereas contrapuntal writing is a trick of simultaneous vertical and horizontal motion. The Bach Inventions exemplify this.

If you know any good organists (local church?), you might ask them to critique your technique. They tend to be very helpful.

Best regards.
"Never look at the trombones, it only encourages them."
--Richard Wagner

Offline florentin

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Re: Sight-reading Choral Music
Reply #26 on: November 11, 2005, 05:01:56 AM
Yes, I enjoy the two part inventions. Today I looked at No.1 and No.2.
Great stuff.
"Piano Devotions For Little Fingers" Book/CD
Original Hymn Arrangements
Score • Story • Lesson • Devotion
https://www.florentintise.com/
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