A problem I have in memorizing music

[rivaldo]

Hi,

I play piano and I play all my musics from memory, I memorize everything so I don't have to look at the sheet. But I always have a "problem" that I don't know exactly how much it's a problem, and I would like to hear some other people's opinions about it.

I have a tendence to memorize by the name of the notes, I did that without noticing since I was a child and now it's a costume I have. But making this lead me to some issues.

First, there is no difference between the accidents and white notes, Si, and SiBemol are the same thing in my mind. That leads me to problem specially when I'm learning/memorizing a piece with many "bemols or sustenidos in the clave" For example, in Chopin's Waltz Op 18, 1, The notes are "Bb-D-Eb-Fa", but I accidentaly memorize the name "Re-Mi-Fa" in my mind, and suddenly I accidentally play "D#-E-Fa" if I was playing a music with a Re# in the Clave before.

The second issue is that sometimes the simple parts of a music becames quite boring to hear after I know which are the notes. For example, on Debussy - Reverie, there is a "Bb-C-D-G" in the start, but while I'm listening now, always pops in my mind "Si-Do-Re-Sol", Si with a sound of "See", what is boring hah

When I try to memorize I always also play it slowly, feeling the notes etc, so I conciously memorize the positions of the notes on keyboard and how it sounds. But, even without paying attention to it, I always have this impulse to memorize the names of the notes, what can lead me to this problems...


Do any piano player there have come into something like this?


Thanks

[florentin]

I don't have much to offer here, but I can tell you how I memorize my repertoire: I try not to... Ok, let me explain.

First, I learn the piece, from the score.
Then I practice it section by section.
By the time I have the piece "down", or ready to perform, it is actually memorized, and I did not even try to do so.

I love to play from the score all the time. I am also working hard to improve my sight-reading (see post on "sight-reading choral music", so reading is always good for me.

I find myself practicing from the score even when I know the piece from memory.

This is just me. 

[quantum]

This type of Solfege note learning is taught in some parts of the world.  Were you taught this system?

One of my friends was taught this.  To her a B-nat, B-flat, B-double flat, B-sharp, is always referred to as "Si" regardless of the key relationship.  I find this method however to be extreemly inaccurate.  Note that solfege can be an extreemly useful tool, if used properly.  This type of method encourages you of thinking letter names rather than thinking of the pitch relations of notes within their mode. 

In your case I would try and think of the pitch relations of notes.  Eg: How this note leads to another; how one chord is more dissonant than the following one; how the leading note resolves to it's tonic, etc. 


For your reference, here is the chromatic solfege I was taught.   Notice vowels with higher pitch sounds are used for sharps, and vowels with lower pitch sounds are used for flats:

In sharps going up:
Do Di Re Ri Mi Fa Fi So Si La Li Ti Do

In flats going down:
Do Ti Te La Le So Sa Fa Mi Me Re Ra Do

You may want to experiment with this to clear up your confusion of accidentals assigned to notes. 

[bernhard]

Yes, you have a problem if the piece says E# (mi sustenido) and you mentalise F. Sure, it is the same key, and even (on the piano) the same pitch,  but it is not the same note. The way to overcome this is simply through disciplining yourself. Make sure that you name the note on the score (E#), not the key on the piano (F).

Now, the next problem is not a problem at all. You can name an F#  as F if you want (and I actually would encourage you to do so), as long as it is part of the key signature (rather then an accidental). Do instance, you can play the scale of D major and say to yourself: D – E – F – G- A – B – C – D, as long as you keep reminding your self that in the scale of D major, natural Fs and Cs do not exist: F means F# and C means C#. In fact, practising a D major scale in such a way before playing a piece in D major will ensure that you never miss either the F# or the C# . I am not sure if this is making sense to you.

Finally, memorising by saying the notes in your mind is a valid method, but also limited and limiting. It is just too slow. You would not be able to do that in any passage with very fast figurations. During the middle ages, people would read silently by enunciating all the words in their minds in real time as if they were reading aloud. If we had a time machine we would be abel to see the monks’s lips moving as they read silently. Sure it is a way of doing it, but it is very limited and limiting. And it is not necessary. St Augustine was one of the first to actually read without enunciating the words mentally. As a consequence he was considered a prodigy and a legendary reader amongst the monks because he could do two things they could not understand: He could read without moving his lips, and he could read (comparatively) at phenomenal speeds. No wonder, he was skipping the unnecessary and time consuming step of enunciating all words.

One huge problem you will have if this is only your memory method is that you will memorise only part of the notes (usually the melodic notes), the others you will have to rely on your hand memory (which is unreliable when not backed up by other kids of memory).

If you want some alternatives to memorisation, have a look on these threads.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2083.msg17227.html#msg17227
(the basic theory)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3858.msg34936.html#msg34936
(the basics – includes the history of the Art of memory)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7399.msg74758.html#msg74758
(the details of the process using “dozen a day” as an example)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4321.msg40373.html#msg40373
(pragmatical theory of memory- reply #22)

Best wishes,
Benrhard.

[rivaldo]

Hi,

Very interesting answers.

Florentin, I'm a very bad sight-reader
I try to compensate that listening to the music until I know how it sounds memorized

I'll try using your concept, Bernhard, of using the key signature to name the notes, but, there will be still accidents, for accidents I can use the nomenclature that you, quantum, posted


Also, Quantum, you said something interesting about "pitch relations of notes.  Eg: How this note leads to another; how one chord is more dissonant than the following one"
I already had theory classes(for which I didn't pay much attention) and I heard of all those things, and I think this could help me a lot. Also, on another topic from this forum I remember to read something about analising Haydn's Sonatas to help understand theory etc.

So my question is if you guys, or other person that is reading, know some theory book to reference to me, that would help me understanding this dissonants or analising the sonatas, if not I'll look for some one.

Also, Bernhard, those topics are very interesting, I'll take a look on this Harry Lorayne book on internet to see more information about it.

Now, only for curiosity, you said on a topic that you know some techniques from this book (not exactly that, but something like you know things about it etc).
Can you do something impressive with memory? I'm asking only for curiosity heheh.

Thanks

[bernhard]

So my question is if you guys, or other person that is reading, know some theory book to reference to me, that would help me understanding this dissonants or analising the sonatas, if not I'll look for some one.

Have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2055.msg16939.html#msg16939
(Theory books)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3034.msg26512.html#msg26512
(best theory books)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5629.msg54681.html#msg54681
(advanced theory books)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4090.msg37605.html#msg37605
(How to analyse pieces – Nicholas Cook’s book and the fugues analysis site)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.