Is there a God?

[donjuan]

well, i think i shall try a little of ted's logic.  what do dominos have to do with domine and God?  and, what do riverworms have to do with life before and after sin?  the evidence is clear.  we have none.

so why, when you have no evidence, would you jump to the most ridiculous and unbelievable explanation?  It's kind of like if I say
"Oh, I wonder where the remote control is.." and then Joe Idiot goes

"those *** Trolls are at it again, stealing our stuff while we sleep" and then I say

"maybe I'll check under the sofa," so I check there and still don't find it.  Joe Idiot sees that I don't have it and laughs,

"HAHA you fool!  There is no evidence to suggest the remote control is under the sofa, so it MUST have been taken by Trolls while we slept."

What can I do?? Until I find the remote control, I can't prove Joe Idiot wrong.  And because he is so wrapped up in his belief in Kleptomaniac Nocturnal Trolls, he won't even think about being wrong.  I think the possiblity just scares him too much.
------------------------
So, Pianistimo, why do I make this analogy?  Because here you are, trying to find possibilities of inaccuracy in DNA and carbon dating, all the while, you believing that the world was created in 7 days by a higher being.  You pay careful attention never to acknowledge the usefulness of carbon dating and the geological time scale, which has been studyed and theorized for years.  Why, when you don't know the answer, do you jump to the most over-the-top explanation? 

Just think.  In ancient Greece, they believed the sun was a fiery chariot driven across the sky everyday by a God, Apollo.  Just think about how they would feel if they were to take a time machine into our day and go up into outer space and see the earth rotating about the sun.  b

History shows us, time and time again: People make up B.S. when they don't know the answer.  I call it "B.S. theory" and try as I might, I just can't prove it wrong.

[Torp]

History shows us, time and time again: People make up B.S. when they don't know the answer.  I call it "B.S. theory" and try as I might, I just can't prove it wrong.

Amen.

[gruffalo]

ive had christians debate against me about this, but i believe that God created evolution, created science and it exapanded through his creation. meanwhile, he is involved in our lives aswell. i dont go against the proved scientific theories. i study physics, and i believe most of the things up to the big bang (this included) which i believe from then on cannot be explained because this is Gods creation.

[Torp]

i study physics, and i believe most of the things up to the big bang (this included) which i believe from then on cannot be explained because this is Gods creation.

What you're stating here is, essentially, a deist philosophy.

"God is the power of first cause, nature is the law, and matter is the subject acted upon." Thomas Payne (a deist proponent)

Deism is philosophy that deals with the discovery of god via Reason, as opposed to most major branches of religion that subscribe to knowledge of god via revelation, i.e. god is revealed to them through various means.

It is interesting that your "conversion" to a belief in god seems to have come about because certain events "revealed" the presence of god to you, but your underlying explanations about god seem to lead more to a reasoned discovery.

btw, none of this is a criticism, simply observation.  I firmly believe that the paths to spiritual discovery are as varied as there are people to travel them.  Let me talk a little about my own path.


Gods are ideal.  They embody the flawless attributes of the facets of human existence. These facets can be as broad as the notions of good and evil or as narrow as the concepts of fertility, war, love, or wisdom.  These ideals give people goals to work toward or strive against.  Gods exist to provide a foundation in an otherwise chaotic and unfair world and give meaning to our otherwise short and painfully insignificant lives. 

When I was young, I was raised to believe in the Christian gods and I was trained to pursue the good teachings embodied in Jesus and to shun the evil influence of Satan.  It should be noted, this was not a “ram-it-down-my-throat” kind of upbringing.  It simply was a facet of our lives.  We went to church.  And, I was indoctrinated.  (As a side note, I am familiar with the Christian myths that identify Satan as a fallen angel instead of a god, but I believe that most Christian churches treat him more like an embodiment of evil, making him an evil deity by most definitions.)

As I grew, my view slowly shifted from the Christian dyadic to the Deist notion of monotheism.  I saw God as a powerful creator that was neither good nor evil and that had no active role in life on earth.  This shift was based partly on my inability to perceive any evidence that a supernatural force was affecting my life on earth.  Although there were many things that I didn’t (and don’t) understand in the world, none of them directly suggested that there was a magical entity controlling them.

Later, I began to envision gods as nothing more than aspects of myself – the good, the bad, the loving, the warlike, the wise, the impetuous, etc.  In other words, I came to the realization that god was simply an anthropomorphic creation.

Eventually, I began to try to remove the abstraction that had been introduced through the incorporation of gods into my life.  I accomplished this by carefully examining the gods I knew and trying to identify why I needed them.  As I vivisected my gods, I was able to get in touch with myself on a level that had been impossible before.  The guidance and reassurance that I had only been able to achieve by communicating with my gods through prayer, I was able to receive from within through careful reflection and mediation.

As I got to know myself better, I found that I no longer needed abstract figures to guide me through life – I had always known everything that my gods did, I just hadn’t been able to get in touch with that knowledge without creating omniscient personalities with whom I could communicate.  As I identified the motivations behind the creation of my gods, they lost their power and died.

This path is ongoing.  In another 40 years I'm sure the story will have evolved further.  At least I hope it does.  I would hate to think that I have learned I am going to learn in the spritual realm at the young age of 40.

Jef

[pianistimo]

i understand how many people 'give up' on seeing faith as an important thing in their lives because of unanswered prayers (or seemingly unanswered prayers).  and, how people turn to reason as a god.  but, in effect that is what satan wants.  he wants reason to explain everything.  but, it doesn't.  no one knows anymore about the beginning of life than God (who created it - and wrote down the details).  the big bang is tied to evolution in most textbooks - and does not account for a literal 6 day creation and 7th day of rest.  this start of the calendar (first day first night) is impossible to track in evolution because no calendar would exist.  i may have limited reasoning powers, but some things are quite simple to me.  that is because Christ took into account all types of  people - and not just the einsteins when he made his gospel of the kingdom.  he doesn't require anyone with a physics degree to prove it. 

i married someone who had a physics degree - and it has held us in good stead, though, because he uses the reason in other areas of life, too.  and, i think reason definately helps one live a 'more reasoned' life.  but, with faith - reason is not always the answer.  little children believe simply because they are told 'this is the way.'  we are told by Christ, 'I am the way, the truth and the life...'   there are no difficult formulas.  just 'love your neighbor as yourself - and keep yourself unspotted from the world.'  of course, even those simple things are hard sometimes because innately we are selfish.  so, in effect, the easiest things are the hardest.

[leahcim]

Christ took into account all types of  people - and not just the einsteins when he made his gospel of the kingdom.  the gospel is simple too.  he doesn't require anyone with a physics degree to prove it. 

Ma'hed lee qalleel d-Khayey d-Breeyaan, ellaa dlaa gukhkaa.

[pianistimo]

translation please!

[leahcim]

translation please!

Tell us some more about this word of God and Jesus that you understand without it needing some clever dude around first

[Torp]

i understand how many people 'give up' on seeing faith as an important thing in their lives because of unanswered prayers (or seemingly unanswered prayers).

This sentence indicates to me that you understood nothing of what I said.  I did not 'give up' on faith...I grew out of it.  Much like my belief in Santa Claus.  Better evidence and better answers made the idea no longer valid.

but, in effect that is what satan wants. 

So....what you're saying is that Satan is a proponent of reasoned thinking and your god wants you to check your brain at the door?

i married someone who had a physics degree - and it has held us in good stead, though, because he uses the reason in other areas of life, too.  and, i think reason definately helps one live a 'more reasoned' life. 

Sounds to me like you married one of Satan's minions and you, yourself, subscribe to Satan's philosophies of living a life according to reason.

little children believe simply because they are told 'this is the way.' 

Yes, if you look at phase one my own spiritual journey and discovery this is what happened.  I out grew this like I out grew the need for Santa to explain why presents appeared under the tree.

[pianistimo]

you mean translators?  they just translate the words into another language.  to find exact translation you go back to the aramaic or greek and check the translation, that's all.  some bibles are less exact - if you are a scholar and want to know exact exact meanings.  but, Christ was very straightforward and most of the translations of his words are pretty much what he meant as far as i can tell.

in the church that i now attend, attention has been brought to the Name of God.  i never really paid it much thought.  the proper name of God in the OT is a translation of the original Elohim.  the normal word for Master is Lord (in our vernacular).  either way - it's a moot point really - but takes on significance when you see that certain names describe His actual being.  God the Father is also called Father of light and describes the perfect union of Himself and the Son in Gen. 1:26 "Let us make man in Our image..."  so, the Word 'became flesh...'

Somewhere in the gospels a woman said 'blessed is the womb that bare you...' and Christ responded, 'blessed are those that hear the Word of God and obey...' or something like that.  So, we see that Mary had very little to do with creating deity or holiness - but WE can be called 'sons and daughters of the almighty' by having faith.  I'm sure she has a blessed position - but we are never told to pray to her.  she is dead/asleep- just as the rest of the saints are dead and awaiting ressurrection.

As i understand the new testament, Christ became the spokesperson - through God - to his disciples (much like a master piano teacher to students and their students pass on the knowledge).  when peter and john performed a miracle of helping a lame man to walk in acts 3 - they did not attribute the miracle to themselves.  false religion is attributing everything to self.  peter said in acts 3:12 "...why do you marvel at this, or why do you gaze at US, as if by our own power or piety we had made him walk."  in vs. 15 he refers to Christ as the Prince of life whom God raised from the dead and a fact to which they were WITNESSES.  so - if there is any reason to disbelieve - it would be not to believe what came before us.  yet we are willing to believe lessons taught by chopin, liszt, and believe what they taught.  of course Christ was born many many years before these teachers of music - but, the same fact exists.  He was born.  He died.  He was ressurrected - and many witnesses saw it with there own eyes.  There was a great earthquake (that must have unraveled the thoughts of the romans as well as others) and even the calendar began again by what people saw (bc and ad).  the name of Jesus has such power even today - that people can be healed.  it's just that most don't have faith to experience the true power of God.  i'm not saying i have it fully either.  i wish i had more at times - because i've experienced many good things.  but, it's not just experiencing good that helps us - but also troubles.  because = with trouble - you pray and you release your troubles to God who is better able to handle the big stuff.  even if a person dies - they are not dead forever according to the gospel.  so why fear death?  fear Him who is able to save you from the power of death.

[pianistimo]

dear torp,

i suppose the way i wrote the above sentences, i countered my own claims - but - in my mind i do not believe only in what i can prove or see.  my husband doesn't either.  i don't think physics disproves the bible.  in fact, science just confirms it - in my way of thinking.  it's just studying what God has made.

i'm not able to convince you of God's existence - by reasoning, or by history, or by archeology, but perhaps by something that you ask me to pray for.  gideon once asked a ridiculous thing to prove that an angel he was talking to was really from God.  (probably was Christ himself).  anyway - if i remember the story - he asked if a skin would be wet on one side in the morning and dry the next.  if you doubt God and really are searching for Him - He will reveal Himself to you if you are truly seeking Him WITH ALL YOUR HEART. 

much differnt than a magician - to just see a few miracles - marvel - and then walk away without being changed in spirit.  To be changed in spirit means that you acknowledge this is a GREATER POWER than any power we know or see or feel around us (since Satan has a certain amount - and can manifest it also).  To accept Christ is to deny oneself - which satan pulls on us to make ourselves #1.  i'm no exception to this rule - so don't think i'm trying to tell you how to think or believe - because i'm still learning.  all i'm saying is that in every moment of our lives we have choices.  i'm learning to take the harder ones and say -'satan, get behind me...' when i'm tempted to say and do the wrong thing.  he makes evil look good and it's always much easier.  to believe in God means to take on moral dillemmas and stand up for what is written in the bible - without doubt.

that doesn't mean - leave you head at the door.  far from it.  we don't leave our heads at the door with a piano teacher.  we do trust them, though.  and, we should even more trust God.  if you trust someone implicitly, you can find out later WHY in more detail.  I'm sure he supplies the detail as we age and even on into the next life.  our ressurected life - when we actually see Him face to face.  if He is truly a Father, he will not only reveal himself, but his thoughts, and actions, and reasons f or doing things.  a close relationship and not a distant one.

[Torp]

but, Christ was very straightforward and most of the translations of his words are pretty much what he meant as far as i can tell.

MOST of the translations?
PRETTY MUCH what he meant?
AS FAR as you can tell?

This is a very convincing argument for the infallible word of Jesus.

Let me ask this, were any of the letters of the apostles written in Aramaic?

[sarahlein]

Let me ask this, were any of the letters of the apostles written in Aramaic?

actually they were written in Greek-come on Torp, even I know that 

[Torp]

actually they were written in Greek-come on Torp, even I know that 

I know it too, thus my "rhetorical" and "sarcastic" question.

It never ceases to amaze me how people talk about the word of Jesus in the Bible when "nothing" in the Bible has ever really been said by Jesus.  The apostles wrote their letters in Greek, not Aramaic.  But I'm SURE  the translation from Aramaic to Greek from memory by the apostles was perfect and not altered in any way.  Then I'm equally sure that ALL subsequent translations into every other language are equally perfect.

[pianistimo]

in the movie 'the passion' - Christ spoke in aramaic (with english subtitles).  if Christ originally spoke in aramaic - then whoever of the disciples that was writing down the gospels had to either 'in his head' translate and write for the audience of jews/christians in the diaspora or they wrote the books in several languages.  i believe it was the latter because the jewish scribes were very careful with these texts because they were to be responsible for the 'oracles' of God.  we have an idea of which ones given in the bible by the verses that speak of how 'king of the jews' was written above the cross.  Hebrew (close to Aramaic), Latin, and Greek were used.

i subscribe to the idea that the original words of Christ were in Aramaic and had to be translated.  this article explains both ideas:  www.dtl.org/bible/article/language/part_one.htm 
i think matthew used the septuagint when translating, but something similar to the dead sea scrolls when writing in his own language. 

[donjuan]

I know it too, thus my "rhetorical" and "sarcastic" question.

It never ceases to amaze me how people talk about the word of Jesus in the Bible when "nothing" in the Bible has ever really been said by Jesus.  The apostles wrote their letters in Greek, not Aramaic.  But I'm SURE  the translation from Aramaic to Greek from memory by the apostles was perfect and not altered in any way.  Then I'm equally sure that ALL subsequent translations into every other language are equally perfect.

yeah, it's kind of like 'I caught a fish! it was thiiiiiiiiiis big!'

Pianistimo, I am noticing a trend in all (and I mean ALL) your posts.  Torp has some very interesting ideas he derived from his lifetime, including his own revelation on how our own personal concept of a god comes from ourselves --> our own personality and ambitions.  As a response to his posts, you say stuff like

gideon once asked a ridiculous thing to prove that an angel he was talking to was really from God.  (probably was Christ himself).

or

Somewhere in the gospels a woman said 'blessed is the womb that bare you...' and Christ responded, 'blessed are those that hear the Word of God and obey...' or something like that.  So, we see that Mary had very little to do with creating deity or holiness - but WE can be called 'sons and daughters of the almighty' by having faith.

We are trying to understand the authenticity of the bible, while you go on trying to show us that through quoting stuff from the bible!  sheesh, cant you see how unconvincing it is?

It's like I am trying to find a national park, so I phone the park ranger and ask for directions.  Now, let's say that you (Pianistimo) are the park ranger, answering the phone.  

"Hello? Yes.  I am trying to find the national park."
"Oh yes, very beautiful park. Lots of big trees."
"Cool.  How can I find it?"
"Oh don't you worry, you'll find it.  Just have a little FAITH."
"ummm... ok.  What highway do I take?"
"Oh, our signs here in the park say that it was founded in 1903.. yep"
"Listen, about finding the park.."
"Oh, no one is doubting the park, it's a GREAT park"
"Well, I'm looking at the map, and it seems that the position of the park is a little ambiguous.."
"The only true souls who know where the park is, is that beaver family you see... they came here back in 1902 and founded the park.."
"Where are the beavers?"
"Oh, they died a long time ago, but they wrote some directions down somewhere.... I'm sure you'll find it sooner or later if you seek it WITH ALL YOUR HEART.  It's a beautiful park, just let it find you.  as FAR as I can tell, the directions are PRETTY MUCH self-explanitory.  Just have a little faith and maybe one day (like when you die) you'll understand."
"grrrr screw it, I want to live.  Im going somewhere else" [hang up]

[pianistimo]

yes.  i've always been a bit like that.  say, i would like to be a park ranger.  how did you know? 

anyway, for what it's worth...i'm NOT a scholar.  just an average interested person in Jesus Christ.  so - there are many like me - but not many just exactly like me.  maybe that's why the scripture 'and the foolish will confound the wise...' or something like that.  there are many biblical scholars - so how should i know all the details of the languages?  i'm just saying - as long as i live i'll just keep on learning what i can and adding to what i know.  then, i'll try to tell others in a succinct way - and probably not so long winded.  i learned that with teaching piano lessons too.  you say less - do more.  and, look up the questions if you don't know something.

that idea with the beavers and ALL YOUR HEARt made me think of dam.  no, not that kind.  but, the direction they seem to have to build them.  they are so focused.  i wouldn't mind being similar to a beaver, actually, so i'm not offended.

[Torp]

- so how should i know all the details of the languages?

I don't think anyone can know all the details of the languages.  Nor am I a proponent that you ought to attempt it.  For me, often times, I'd be satisfied if the people who continually claim the infallibility of the bible or the word of god or jesus or whoever supposedly said something in the bible would simply admit the possibility that their interpretation is potentially wrong.

On another note...back to reason and deism for a moment.  I find it interesting to juxtapose reason with satan.  If this is in fact true then the USA was founded by followers of satan.  Many of the founding fathers were deist.  This was part of the reason they strongly supported a separation between church and state and supported the right for everyone to engage in a "reasoned" discovery of their own with regards to god.

Perhaps, pianistimo, the satanic nature of the US is the reason we are experiencing natural disasters now?  Not only are we all bound under Adam and Eve's "sin," but perhaps we're being punished for being a satanic society as well?

Speaking of Adam and Eve, my favorite part of that whole story is the fact that, in the end, the snake (satan) is shown to be telling the truth (i.e. Adam and Eve gained knowledge not death) while god was shown to be a liar, or at least not true to his word, as Adam and Eve were banned and not killed as god had promised.

Seems to me that from that moment on, god has a bit of a credibility problem.  And, somehow, the guy that was telling the truth throughout the whole ordeal is made out to be the bad guy.  Doesn't quite seem fair.

[bearzinthehood]

I think people like Christianity because it's the easiest of the "you get to go to heaven when you die" religions.  It's a perfect construction because it alleviates two of humanity's base fears, the fear of death and the fear of suffering.  For the finite cost of obedience during your lifetime, you are promised an eternity of reward.  Sounds like a good deal, you'd be a fool not to take it.

If you're sufficiently myopic to take your own religion at face value then perhaps it will be comforting to know that there are most likely other religions that claim that you are going to hell.  It's just as impossible to rationally disprove them as it is to disprove Christianity.  I hope you picked the right one...

[bearzinthehood]

and, how people turn to reason as a god.  but, in effect that is what satan wants.  he wants reason to explain everything. 

BTW, this is hilarious.

[pianistimo]

the spiritual world IS thought of as foolish.  but, the wise 'of this age'  will be the foolish in the next.  that is why Christ wrote the parable about inviting many to a banquet.  they all gave excuses why they couldn't come.  so then, he invited the street people.  they all took their places.  when the door is shut (at death) you can't just knock on the door and say 'wait a minute.'  so, that is why Christians attempt to speak out - so that people will keep their place in God's kingdom.  i believe we were all born with a place in it - and that a merciful God would not predestinate us to doom and gloom.

that's where satan comes in.  he DID bring death into the world.  God never said - you will die instantly.  He just said 'you will surely die'  - in the day that eve took the fruit - that sentence began.  just as a sentence for crime.  in effect, sin is a crime against God.

the choice is everyone's.  to be aware of our potential.  the centurion was not born into a christian family (as i understand - as he was probably a roman) - and yet, decided that Christ was worth worship.  He saw Christ heal people and said to Him, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, sufferring great pain."  Christ told him "I will come and heal him."  But, the centurion (not yet fully understanding, but having great faith) said, "Lord, I am not worthy for you to come under my roof, but just say the word and my servant will be healed.  For, I too, am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, Go! and he goes, and to another, Come! and he comes..."  This man didn't know diddly squat about Christ's gospel except that he saw his great power of healing and realized that he had power over the spiritual realm.  Christ said to him, "Truly i say to you, I have not found such faith with anyone in Israel...go your way; let it be done to you AS YOU HAVE BELIEVED." 

[bearzinthehood]

That's a good story.  It's such a good story that many people believe it.

It's still just a story.  There are many other stories.  According to them most Christians are going to hell.  Tell me why your story is better than the other stories.

[pianistimo]

there is no better story than Christ's life, death, and ressurrection.  if he died so that all may live -then Christian or not - he's made a way for people to change (even if it is at the point of death).  Jesus story is the best because he not only preached the gospel but healed EVERY kind of disease and EVERY kind of sickness (matt. 4:23).  there was basically no good thing that he would withold during a person's lifetime as well as after.  the only thing he required was FAITH.  not even a complete knowledge of the gospel.  many of the disciples became more faithful AFTER He died and was ressurrected - because then they also saw not only the miracles he did before them - but, what he did for the entire world.

people talk about bleeding statues and stuff that is paranormal - but, i believe that paranormal isn't what we're talking about only.  although, in revelations it mentions many strange things that will occur in the last days.  the last of the plagues will be directly from God and be paranormal enough to cause people to 'wonder' if not believe.  we are told in Hebrews that his angels are compared to 'winds.' heb. 1:7 and ps. 104:4
yet. the demons are also powerful and perform 'signs' "which go out to the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of the Almighty...and THEY (demons planning) gathered them together to the place which in hebrew is called Har-Magedon."

the seventh angel is the one that says 'it is done.'  (the complete will of God before his second coming)  there are flashes of lightening and sounds and peals of thunder.  a great earthquake SUCH AS HAD NOT BEEN SINCE MAN CAME TO BE UPON THE EARTH, and THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL. (rev. 17:18-19)every island fled away, the mountains were not found, huge hailstones fell (100 lbs each).

rev. 18:4 says, "come out of her, my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities... for this reason IN ONE DAY her plagues will come, pestilence, mourning, and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord who judges her is strong.

rev. 19 mentions the very words of Handel's messiah "hallelujah!  for the Lord our God, the Almighty reigns...let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, fo rthe marriage of the Lamb has come and his bride has made herself ready."  the bride, being (i take it) the Christians who have wedded themself to Christ's word and not satans.  they are told "blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb."  they will witness the world under a new authority (and not the beast power and those who worship that - receiving the mark of the beast).  as i see it - anything to do with a world government is not for us unless it is headed by Jesus Christ.

[donjuan]

you're doing it again, Pianistimo..

I'm just going to stop trying.  For a moment here, I thought this thread was going to be different than the other thousand 'god' threads on the forum, but I guess I was wrong.  People don't change, and you know what, if people are happy the way they are, fine.  Just go on and believe whatever you want to believe.  I'm sure you'll live a happier life than me in the long run anyways. 

You and Janice from the past religious threads- you both think you can convince people of the bible's grand importance by quoting passages from the bible.  It just doesn't work -on ANY level- .  Let's stop wasting time on this thing and get back to our piano playing.

It's kind of like asking a used car salesman "Is this car worth the asking price?" We all know he'll say "yeah, of course!  it's a bargain!!"  The fact of the matter is that I need to ask a trustworthy mechanic for a fair assessment. 

"and that's about all I have to say about that.."

[bearzinthehood]

It's funny when you ask people, "Why is the Bible the word of God?"

And in their response they start off with, "the Bible says...."

[pianistimo]

you two do make me laugh.  maybe as much as i make you laugh.  so, we're even. 

but, in fact, i am serious...and you are serious.  so - we'll just have to agree to disagree.  maybe we should start talking about plasma?  just got my national geographic and it says here "plasma is a gas in which atoms have been stripped of electrons.  because of that, plasma has magnetic and electric fields that move around unpredictably, altering their environment. as the environment changes, so does the plasma - a continuous dance of action and reaction."

do you think i wasn't polarized at birth?  or could it be that you weren't?  well, which ever of us is crazy...let me just say - i did get a laugh from that pic.

as far as why the bible is the word of God - i believe it is infallible and cannot be disproven.  many books have been written that claim to be prophecy - but there is a scripture in the bible that says 'if a prophet says something and it doesn't happen - you know that's a false prophecy.'  many of the prophecies of nostradamus have happened, but not all.  also, they don't acknowledge Jesus coming in the flesh and being ressurrected.  Christ's own birth, death, ressurrection were prophecied.  isaiah 52:13-15 and isaiah 53 mention that Christ was to have no stately form or attractive appearance (he often disappeared in crowds), he was to be despised and forsaken by men, acquainted withsorrows and grief (his father Joseph died, and he probably had a fairly difficult life), he carried OUR sorrows and yet was stricken (beaten) and crushed for OUR iniquities, and BY HIS SCOURGING we are healed.  he was scourged.  he 'poured out himself to death and was numbered with the transgressors. yet, He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.'

can you tell me of a prophecy in the bible that isn't true?  i believe that whichever prophecies haven't yet come true - are coming to pass right now.  for instance - the nature of the 'beast power' mentioned in daniel and revelation.  there IS a movement for a worldwide government.  if we believe the bible to be true - we should listen all the more closely as time is being 'wound up' so to speak.  there's a place that warns us not to 'fall asleep.'  i take that to mean keeping God's spirit in your life and not becoming complacent and saying 'He will never return.'  that's what the book of jude is about. 

[donjuan]

as far as why the bible is the word of God - i believe it is infallible and cannot be disproven.  many books have been written that claim to be prophecy - but there is a scripture in the bible that says 'if a prophet says something and it doesn't happen - you know that's a false prophecy.'  many of the prophecies of nostradamus have happened, but not all.  also, they don't acknowledge Jesus coming in the flesh and being ressurrected.  Christ's own birth, death, ressurrection were prophecied.  isaiah 52:13-15 and isaiah 53 mention that Christ was to have no stately form or attractive appearance (he often disappeared in crowds), he was to be despised and forsaken by men, acquainted withsorrows and grief (his father Joseph died, and he probably had a fairly difficult life), he carried OUR sorrows and yet was stricken (beaten) and crushed for OUR iniquities, and BY HIS SCOURGING we are healed.

By posting this, all you are doing is reinforcing this very concise and smart statement of bearzinthehood:

It's funny when you ask people, "Why is the Bible the word of God?"

And in their response they start off with, "the Bible says...."

can you tell me of a prophecy in the bible that isn't true?  i believe that whichever prophecies haven't yet come true - are coming to pass right now.  for instance - the nature of the 'beast power' mentioned in daniel and revelation.  there IS a movement for a worldwide government.  if we believe the bible to be true - we should listen all the more closely as time is being 'wound up' so to speak.  there's a place that warns us not to 'fall asleep.'  i take that to mean keeping God's spirit in your life and not becoming complacent and saying 'He will never return.'  that's what the book of jude is about.

You can interpret anything in an infinite number of ways;  I saw on Dateline or 20/20 or one of these shows where they got a 2 year old to do nonsense 2 year old painting on a canvas.  They then showed the canvas to modern art snobs and asked them what they thought of it. (Of course, they didn't tell them it was done by a 2 year old)  Some of the art critics thought it was brilliant!  -that it must have been done by a genius!  'Oh, the imagery and the imagination!'  Of course, they put their other foot in their mouthes when they heard it was just a kid dabbing randomly with a paintbrush.

Let's just say, from reading what you wrote about interpreting prophecies coming true, You remind me of those modern art critics:

there's a place that warns us not to 'fall asleep.'  i take that to mean keeping God's spirit in your life and not becoming complacent and saying 'He will never return.'

Fine, you interpret it in that way because you believe it.  But there is still no evidence of any prophecies coming true. (I mean, a universal 'true' that everyone can see without a bible being pulled over their eyes)

and THAT is all I have to say about that.

[Torp]

as far as why the bible is the word of God - i believe it is infallible and cannot be disproven. 

Just because something can't be disproven doesn't make it true.  You cannot prove that I am not a god.  The lack of disproof doesn't make me one.

can you tell me of a prophecy in the bible that isn't true? 

I wonder.  Can you can tell me a prophecy from the bible that can be proven true without using the bible as the source of that proof?

The problem with much of the writings in the bible is that they are so ambigous as to be used as justification for anything.  When something like, "And a great nation will rise," is used as some sort of "prophecy" you can argue just about any time in history that a great nation has arisen.

It often strikes me as funny that people use the "prophecies" of the old testament to "prove" that Jesus was the savior.  However, the followers of the old testament, i.e. Judaism, don't believe this to be true.  So, it seems to me that there is a certain amount of ambiguity regarding the fulfillment of prophecies.

I noticed in my own spiritual journey that the greatest amount of growth occurred when I stopped assuming something to be true and started asking what the possibilities were if everything I had ever been taught to believe was wrong.

My best analogy in this would be my time here at the forum.  When I arrived here I had been brought up to believe that the path to great piano playing was gained by playing Hanon every day.  I was exposed to a different way of thinking through much of Bernhard's and xvimbi's posts.  I could have simply said those guys were full of crap and that Hanon was the "way."  Or, I could completely drop Hanon and proclaim them to be the new messiahs.  What I chose to do was to analyze what they were saying, apply and test it in my own life, and come up with something that works for me.  What this required from me was the ability to question my own internal belief system and ask the very important question of, "What if?"

What if everything I've learned is completely wrong?  I continue to ask this question throughout many areas of my life.  Perhaps this is why I continue to engage in these religious threads.  I continue to be completely open to the possibility that my way of thinking can be improved.  I must admit that I am continually dissappointed with the arguments I hear regarding god and the bible.

I personally think the bible is a great document and that it contains some tremendously useful information.  I think its usefulness diminishes greatly the more people try to hang onto it as some sort of infallible document that is always correct.  The argument that the bible says it's the word of god so therefore the word of god is true doesn't really convince me.

[pianistimo]

i understand what you are saying.  forgive my sudden digression here, but last night there was a skating competition where one partner was a professional skater and the other an amateur.  they had a certain amount of time to get one up to a certain level.  now, as i see it, the winners had to have several things going for them.  the professional had to be good at teaching as well as performing (otherwise the amateur would make them look bad) - the amateur had to immensely trust the pro on everything to get this done quick - and the amateur had to fall a lot.

that's the christian life, to me.  (God being the pro). just as you are proving everything by reason, i am proving everything by faith.  it's two different philosophies.  you are asking me to prove that the prophecies in isaiah are true, AND why all people don't believe it is so.  there are many people that don't believe - but this doesn't make it less true.  so i don't look at statistics.  statistics can be misleading.

you cannot suddenly say - i understand the word of God by reason.  you have to pray to God for understanding.  this is where the paths diverge.  one type of understanding is our own and the other is with the help of God's spirit (that we can ask for at any point).    in my past messages i have used the FACTS of archeology, calendar, science (from scientists who don't have bones to pick with religions), and just last night watched a pbs documentary which followed the path of the ancient israelites through the sinai (from mt. sinai to mt. nebo)  the fellow who was narrating explained many of the things that caused him to believe that there was such a thing as spirit.  he felt that dwelling for a few days in some of the bedoin tents - the open air - the pastural feel - and the peace  made him experience something he NEVER felt in the city.  i'm not saying - torp, go out in the wilderness (you probably already do on your motorcycle).  but, i'm saying, if you give God a chance - he'll prove himself to you. 

if you ask a question in faith - normally God reveals an answer.  maybe not suddenly, but over time - as you say that reason does for you.  when satan told eve she would not die that was similar to the jews that disbelieved and said that Christ's words 'if anyone keeps My word, he shall never taste of death (finality) - surely you are not greater than our father Abraham, who died?  the prophets died, too; whom do You make yourself out to be?  Christ responded not with a 'reasoned statement' and a bunch of miracles - but simply 'If I glorify Myself, my glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.; and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him ; and if I say that I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you, but I do know him, and keep His word.  Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad...Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.' 

just because certain people don't believe, doesn't mean God's word will fail.  His word never returns to him void.  He says 'I am the DOOR; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and go in and out, and find pasture.'  Christ's works are not fully seen today because of unbelief.  but, the prophecies continue to be fulfilled.

israel became a state a little over 50 years ago, and that is a fulfillment of a prophecy about them returning to their land.  the land that God promised them.  they are also there to witness the return of the messiah on the mount of olives.  it is then, that jews and christians, muslims, all nations will believe Him 'whom they have not seen.'

also, regarding prophecies coming to pass today:  revelations 7 speaks of  the first trumpet that burns up one third of the earth.  can you explain why there are so many fires burning in the midwest and in australia and so many places.  could it be (i'm just asking?) that we are now experiencing the first of seven trumpets that will change how people view this world and God?  War will also cause much burning - hail/fire/blood - that sounds like warfare.  people in bible times couldn't explain missles/bombs so they probably used the word 'hail' because it drops down.

1/3 of the seas are said to become polluted. who can refute that?  it's already happening.  volcanoes = a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea (rev. 8: and 1/3 of the sea became blood.

these things are beyond our control/reasoning.  we can't say they aren't true- because we've never experienced this type of thing.  but, it's real if it is happening!  many people are wondering just from the recent tsunami and hurricanes.   

[pianistimo]

sorry to be so long winded!  it occurred to me that it is actually quite simple.  Christ said 'you'll know my disciples by their love for one another.'  loving your neighbor as yourself is basically everything in a nutshell.  that is the proof that christianity is true.  it is a sample of God's kingdom on the earth today.  love is not easily put into words (as just with biblical verses). 

[sarahlein]

sorry to be so long winded! it occurred to me that it is actually quite simple. Christ said 'you'll know my disciples by their love for one another.' loving your neighbor as yourself is basically everything in a nutshell.  that is the proof that christianity is true. 

Where was this love when so-called-Christians were fighting against each other in two of the bloodiest world wars in human history?

I'm sorry pianistimo but somehow I feel Christendom falls a little short on this proof of true discipleship!







 

[pianistimo]

the two world wars were not fought FOR christianity's sake.  at least that's not what i read in my history books.  i don't think the third one will either.  at least not for real christians.  they are usually the ones that are martyred - (due to being too pacifist in their views) - when all 'hell' breaks loose.  of course, the jewish people have been 'picked on' too.  so that doesn't make christians more able to suffer. 

i think if hitler had won, his next step would be to destroy christianity and set up his own ideas as a sort of religion.  he relied on the occult.  glad it never went that far.  don't know so much about wwI , but as i take it - it was different countries fighting for land.

[sarahlein]

at least not for real christians

So then, you are saying that the "Christians" that fought against each other in those wars -and any subsequent wars- are not real Christians.

Should we conclude then, that any Christians found not fighting are the real Christians , obeying Jesus' words to have love among themselves?

[pianistimo]

if you take 'thou shall not kill' literally, then yes.

but, just so i don't make brave women and men from many countries in vain (who fight for whatever they are fighting for) - the end of each war is just a realization that everyone is pretty much the same.  they all feel pain, sufferring, death.  that's what Christ is coming for. to give us peace.  we think we'll find peace by fighting wars.  it's temporary and sets the world order accordingly, but permanent peace means that everyone is happy. 

the bible says that the source of conflicts/wars is jealousy.  wanting something that you don't have.  one person/nation starts it and the others protect what they have - it turns into a brawl and everyone gets hurt.  becoming enured to the sufferring of others is terrible, imo.  my son was playing a video game yesterday that kinda bothered me.  there's some kind of function where you can decide if you want 'the scream' or not.  he's a diehard fan of this game - but the things that come out - that he says to his friends - makes me kinda sad.  like 'watch out for the tall guy.'  yes.  what if we all went around killing tall people.  (he's tall, so i don't get it)?  anyway, it lets out his frustrations - but i wish it wasn't on imaginary people...or even pigeons. 

[leahcim]

The bible teaches us God is a big headed, self-centred, immature selfish, egotistical, sexist and homophobic buffoon. Who was in the past forever conversing with the people on Earth warning, threatening, shouting and generally stamping his foot and saying exactly what he will do and when.

There doesn't seem any evidence to suggest that a man of his character would have decided to let doubt enter the picture. "Flood, was that god? He didn't say anything"

Nah, the bible makes it clear and thus it is true, that if God ever floods India or throws a hurricaine new orlean's way he'd be wetting his pants with glee as he rushed to take the credit.

[pianistimo]

if that's how you think of God then you haven't experienced his love fully.  i hope all people will very soon.  and, not by curses but by blessings from obedience to his law.  today, people view law as something to go around, avoid, ignore.  but, if we change our hearts, we will read the bible differently and see that if God allowed us to go on forever in our current conditions - we'd just wipe out ourselves.  the law of God is perfect - and if followed - brings perfect results.  the natural laws can do us in - by rejecting not only God's law but not thinking of the environment and doing things to take care of it.  you can't blame our depletion of the ozone layer on God.  he didn't make us use oil/gas to the amounts that we are today.  i don't understand everything fully, but maybe he's allowing us to get to this point - and realize that we have 'made our own bed.'  the weather is changing with climate warming and when Christ is close to returning - he says for the sake of his people he'll cut short the time.  he doesn't want sufferring - but unless some people experience the results of sin - they'll choose the other way - and be against God and his laws.

[leahcim]

if that's how you think of God then you haven't experienced his love fully.

It's not. I think of him as not existing at all. It's how he's described in the bible, which is, aiui, his own words.

you can't blame our depletion of the ozone layer on God.

However you, it seems, can attribute hurricaines and tsunamis to God.

So are you saying I don't have permission to do it?

[pianistimo]

all i'm saying is that God saw it coming and foretold it.  He knows us better than we know ourselves.

[sarahlein]

if you take 'thou shall not kill' literally, then yes.

Should it be taken literally?

[leahcim]

all i'm saying is that God saw it coming and foretold it.

What you appeared to be saying is that Revelations is true.

AFAICT, Revelations is a statement, attributed to a guy a called John and another guy called Jesus about what is going to happen. It's not a "if you carry on like that, then don't say I didn't warn you"

The one you claimed has already happened says :-

"The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed."

So afaict the act is one of deliberate sabotage for and on behalf of said deity.

It isn't saying "God will sit back and do %#$% all, during which time stuff that people choose to do will lead to really bad things(tm)" Nope it's angels and trumpets, and red and black horses and rivers of blood - a bit like an Enoch Powell acceptance speech.

It appears to be a lot of his day staff going around doing stuff on his behalf. People aren't to blame. How can they be? This is supposedly God's plan written at least 2000 years before the people that will be involved were even born.

[timothy42b]

i understand how many people 'give up' on seeing faith as an important thing in their lives because of unanswered prayers (or seemingly unanswered prayers). 

No, and self referential.

I think it is fairly obvious with even a little rational thought and/or observation that this is not the reason people give up on faith.  I won't say it is completely fallacious, because there are sure to be people who have lost their faith after devastating personal tragedy, and very likely they prayed for relief and didn't get it, but even that is far fetched. 

So why do people lose their faith?  This is a topic that deserves a little attention, because the number of people that do so seems to be quite large.  From fundamentalist churches 80% of children leave the church never to return. 

Why?  No, it isn't because a prayer didn't get answered.  It is because over time their experience with reality becomes noncongruent with what they were taught in the church.  Since their church experience included only dogmatic blind obedience, as soon as there was a problem there was no resolution possible, and either reality or faith had to go.  And it was faith, for 80%.  It doesn't have to be that way, in a more liberal church, but in a mainline fundamentalist or evangelical church the conflict between science and God is part of doctrine. 

For people raised like this, their first college science course (any science - does not have to involve biology or evolution) makes remarkable inroads into their faith.   There seem to be two reasons.  One is simply that critical logical thinking is taught, and once taught it may be hard to limit it to the science course.  The other is that it simply becomes too obvious that they've been lied to repeatedly in church.  This produces a distrust and resentment that is hard to overcome.

Regardless of the reasons, it is clear that science education is a remarkable effective method of removing faith.  There appears to be no known method that has any success in convincing scientists to adopt faith. (There are plenty of scientists with faith in God, somewhere around 30%; almost none are creationist or fundamentalist.  To appear ignorant and superstitious is too much of a clash with their culture.)   

Much of this does not apply to denominations that do not insist on a literal intepretation of selected parts of the bible, or that allow some common sense in the interpretation of what might be meant.  These do not set up science and religion in direct conflict.  I am convinced that over time the religions that insist on the conflict will fail and their former adherents become atheists. 

[gruffalo]

I think people like Christianity because it's the easiest of the "you get to go to heaven when you die" religions.  It's a perfect construction because it alleviates two of humanity's base fears, the fear of death and the fear of suffering.  For the finite cost of obedience during your lifetime, you are promised an eternity of reward.  Sounds like a good deal, you'd be a fool not to take it.

If you're sufficiently myopic to take your own religion at face value then perhaps it will be comforting to know that there are most likely other religions that claim that you are going to hell.  It's just as impossible to rationally disprove them as it is to disprove Christianity.  I hope you picked the right one...

actually i find it very difficult. i dont listen to rules presented to me by the church or teachers, i learn it from prayer. I have feelings when certain things (which aren't obviously bad in life) are bad. i can tell the difference myself from whats generally right and wrong.

back to difficulty, yea its difficult following God because human beings are naturally thrust towards temptation, and the things we are tempted to do are so easy to carry out. I know that i wont go to heaven if i dont choose to follow God, and by choosing to follow him, i have to learn to be loving and good on earth. im nowhere near there but im working on it and its hard. i still drink, i still do things im not supposed to but i know that in the process God is forgiving to an extent, so it would take time for me to be a better person.

[timothy42b]

actually i find it very difficult. i dont listen to rules presented to me by the church or teachers, i learn it from prayer. I have feelings when certain things (which aren't obviously bad in life) are bad. i can tell the difference myself from whats generally right and wrong.

An interesting approach.  I think you are saying you are rejecting some of the doctrine of a traditional organized religion, because you've applied a little common sense and it just isn't reasonable.  I'm with you so far.

Then you go on to invent your own doctrine, using prayer and other nonverifiable methods.  Why do you think your results will be better than theirs?  After all, they have the benefit of biblical scholars, of groups of intelligent people debating the issues, of prayer, and of a fairly long history of trying to figure these things out.  Yet with all this they have failed to satisfy you. 

It does seem to be kind of a dilemma, does it not?  Especially since you can't check who is right in this lifetime, and messages from the afterlife tend to be garbled and unreliable. 

[pantonality]

It's been a while since I've visited this forum and I've never visited the anything but piano forum so this is a nice surprise.

To get back to the original question, Do I believe in God?" Yes, I do, but not of any particular religious variety. Creation is too big for its purpose to be to sanctify any ONE religion. Another reason I don't believe in any one religion is there's too much evidence that indicates the entire Bible is a work of fiction. Yet I look and see the beauty of creation, I remember specific instances in my life where spirit intervened and I was helped and I know there is a spiritual world. I've read many religious and spiritual books and they all have flaws, because they were written by human beings. Please don't tell me about divine inspiration, every religion tells you their book was divinely inspired it's an old tactic to keep you from thinking critically.

So here's a thought for the true believer Christians.

When I've had conversations with Christians they have expressed fear for my eternal soul and that it would break their heart so, so much , beyond all description almost, just thinking about anyone, any good person, possibly going to hell.

I would respond with:
You point out that the thought of sending us all to Hell breaks your heart. I can see why. It’s horrible. It breaks my heart too. If it were up to me, I would never send anyone to hell. Sounds like you wouldn’t either.

SO WHY WOULD GOD?

By that logic, our human capacity for grace and love is even greater than God’s. Another way to look at it is, if I believe God is so loving and graceful that he sends all people to Heaven, and I’m wrong and God sends me to hell for thinking that, then:

GOD WOULD BE SENDING ME TO HELL FOR THINKING HE IS MORE LOVING THAN HE IS.


Food for thought.

[pianistimo]

fortunately for us, God is omnipotent - and no matter what we deem truth - His wins.  that's why the bible warns us of FALSE prophets and FALSE religions.  if every one was true - how could you prove it!  they all say something different.  elijah proved the prophets of baal wrong because their 'god' baal did nothing when they prayed fervently.  there is a scripture in the NT that says if anyone does not believe that Jesus Christ was born in the flesh, died, and was ressurrected in three days and nights and is able to save us from death as well - they are not from God. 

if you don't take the bible literally - you are saying it is false.  so, i don't really care if i'm in the majority or not.  i take every word of God as fact and truth.  if we didn't live back then - how could we really know for sure without FAITH what happenned anyway.  and, what's the worst that can happen if you become a Christian.  maybe that things start going well for you - instead of having a lot of problems.  maybe that you'll make some mistakes, but you won't be grovelling all the time because God forgives your sins (sometimes major depression is from not being able to forgive oneself).

i don't deny that many things i say are self referential.  is that a bad thing?  i also learn from experience and from my experience - faith is kind to you.  it's like sitting on your father's lap and hearing what happened before you were born, what's happening now, and what He hopes will happen in your future.  who else cares for us like God, or like a Father?  some might say - you sound desperate for a father figure.  well, when it gets down to it - all of us need a perfect father.  most of our parents did the best they could - but we are all missing something that we did not get in childhood or teens or as adults.  we all have a need for unconditional love and responsiveness from God. 

people also need boundaries (as children do).  if we could all do as we please - with no laws from God - we would not know our boundaries and hurt ourselves more often.  a loving parent isn't one that says 'go do what you want.'  so, in that respect also, i believe the Word of God is made for doctrine, for reproof, and for instruction in righteousness.  and, i still believe it is all true.  the flood, the 'stories' that some think are changed over time.  God would not  change any of His words and hold us accountable for untruth.  so, if there was an error in translation somewhere - we would not be held accountable for something we didn't understand fully.  the basics are easy - to love one another and stay away from things we know to be evil (sinful).

[Torp]

elijah proved the prophets of baal wrong because their 'god' baal did nothing when they prayed fervently.

Then by your own "proof" above, i.e. god doing nothing in response to fervent prayer, your god is false and therefore does not exist.

[prometheus]

But that is correct logic...

People that believe are talking nonsense. If they wouldn't then they wouldn't believe. Nothing that Pianistimo said about religion makes any sense.

[pantonality]

elijah proved the prophets of baal wrong because their 'god' baal did nothing when they prayed fervently.  there is a scripture in the NT that says if anyone does not believe that Jesus Christ was born in the flesh, died, and was ressurrected in three days and nights and is able to save us from death as well - they are not from God. 

I was in NYC during a blackout in 1977. I asked God for help and felt a presence come to me. That presence could have been Jesus or it could have been my higher self. It led me to grand Central terminal where all the trains are electric (so why bother going there?), but when I arrived the presence seemed to point to some pay phones and the thought came into my head that I should call my friend (the one person I knew who lived there on West 106th St.). So I called and he had just gotten home from work and suggested I "come on up." When I asked how to get there he said take the Broadway bus which coincidentally went right past where I was standing. So I guess my God answers prayers eventhough I'm not a big believer.

people also need boundaries (as children do).  if we could all do as we please - with no laws from God - we would not know our boundaries and hurt ourselves more often.  a loving parent isn't one that says 'go do what you want.'  so, in that respect also, i believe the Word of God is made for doctrine, for reproof, and for instruction in righteousness.  and, i still believe it is all true.  the flood, the 'stories' that some think are changed over time.  God would not  change any of His words and hold us accountable for untruth.  so, if there was an error in translation somewhere - we would not be held accountable for something we didn't understand fully.  the basics are easy - to love one another and stay away from things we know to be evil (sinful).

Here's two questions for you to ponder, was God the only thing that existed prior to the Big Bang? and Do you accept what scientists tell us that matter and energy are equivalent and can be neither created nor destroyed? If you answered yes to both then ponder this, what did God use to create the universe? The only possible answer is, herself. Thus everything that exists is God, even that which you would term evil.

Why would God bother to create an obviously imperfect universe if God is perfect? I believe the answer to that question is same as the answer to the question How does God know that God is good? Simply, if everything is good then there is no frame of reference, without the existence of what you term evil we can't experience what it is to be good because there's nothing to compare it to. Similarly, to experience forgiving, bad things have to happen. All this really suggests is that there's far more to life and spirituality than the Bible would suggest.

All this talk about obedience and doing good is stuff that was put in the Bible to help those in authority maintain their authority, what I like to term Roman crowd control. So let's look at the history of the new testament. The four Synoptic gospels were brought to light by a Roman named Ierennus about 290 AD. The letters of Paul are hundreds of years older and have been studied thoroughly. Only four can be shown to have been written by the same author, Romans 1, Corinthians 1 and 2 and Galatians. Yet, Paul's letters are so completely silent concerning the events that were later recorded in the gospels as to suggest that these events were not known to Paul, who, however, could not have been ignorant of them if they had really occurred. These letters have no allusion to the parents of Jesus, let alone to the virgin birth. They never refer to a place of birth (for example, by calling him 'of Nazareth'). They give no indication of the time or place of his earthly existence. They do not refer to his trial before a Roman official, nor to Jerusalem as the place of execution. They mention neither John the Baptist, nor Judas, nor Peter's denial of his master. (They do, of course, mention Peter, but do not imply that he, any more than Paul himself, had known Jesus while he had been alive.). These letters also fail to mention any miracles Jesus is supposed to have worked, a particularly striking omission, since, according to the gospels, he worked so many.

And why would Paul's letters have been put later in the NT after the Gospels and Acts (which Ierennus brought to light after the 4 gospels). And why were so many other Gospels not included such as the Gospel of Thomas and Phillip which we know from other sources. There are in fact many Christian writings which were deliberately persecuted. It's too easy to say they were from Satan so don't bother. How would you know, did someone ask Satan if he wrote them? or did they just disagree with the contents? Those who hold the Bible to be inerrant place a lot of faith in a document of highly questionable origin. And if you try to tell me that it wouldn't have lasted 2000 years unless God wanted it so, remember that the Romans of the early 4th century stongly persecuted all Christians that didn't believe their particular sect. Subsequent violence to quell dissent among the Christian ranks consisted of the Crusades and the Inquisition. The history of the success of Christianity is inglorious in the extreme. Your doctrine can't be very loving nor successful if the only way to gain believers is on pain of death.

I've written too long now, may I suggest you look into some of what I've written and try a source that's not the Bible nor your pastor. There's a lot of wonderful wisdom in the world, Christianity has no monopoly on wisdom.

[maul]

Pianistimo... how does it feel to know that you've been fed lies your whole life? That you've been indocrinated so badly that you can't even think logically anymore?

[cziffra]

Pianistimo... how does it feel to know that you've been fed lies your whole life? That you've been indocrinated so badly that you can't even think logically anymore?

Harsh, yet  true.