longest piano sonata

[pianistimo]

was rereading a now overdue book before returning it.  (debussy: on music) and found that paul dukas's piano sonata is a massive, four-movement work that lasts OVER AN HOUR!  i don't think i've ever heard it.  has anyone played it?

it is dense in style and uses three staves.  "in it's constantly roving chromaticism it strongly recalls franck and d'indy, as well as referring to the sonatas of beethoven." 

are there any sonatas longer than this one?

[Kassaa]

Sorabji.

[Ruro]

I know it's not piano (nor Sonata form), but what was that Organ piece? It is supposed to play for 720 years or something. Someone mentioned it a while back, because FINALLY the second note was being played or something ^_^;; I would love to watch the guy playing that! *j/k*

Edit: Oops, staying on topic, I could probably agree on the Sorabji ^_^;; But er... his Sonata No.1 is recorded in a time of 22 odd minutes by Hamelin, if you mean the *Larger* pieces, are they Sonata form? Hell, if the *unspeakable* has a quadruplex or fugues, I think that one is ruled out already, along with the *very long named one*

[ryguillian]

Sorabji's Fourth Sonata is recorded by Jonathan Powell and lasts well over two hours; and his Fifth Sonata (Opus archimagicum) is even longer.

--Ryan

[Jacey1973]

The Hammerklavier's pretty long isn't it? (c. 50 mins?)

[Etude]

Sonata V (Opus archimagicum) (1934-35)
336 pp.  (Probably A3 size)

PARS PRIMA:  ARCANA MINORA
I:  Fiero, ardito:  1-49
II:  Presto, sotto voce inquieto 50-58
III:  Punta d'organo.  Quasi adagio, oscuro, velato 59-74
IV:  Con fuoco, ardito e fiero  75-123

PARS ALTERA:  ARCANA MAJORA
[V]:  124-187
VI:  Adagio.  Il tutto sempre con dolcezza velenosa:  188-236

PARS TERTIA ET ULTIMA:  ARCHIMAGUS
VII  Preludio:  237-252
VIII  Preludio-corale sopra "Dies irae".  Sempre oscuro, sordo e con un qualsiasi sentimento di minaccia occulta 253-280
[IX]  Cadenza 280-284
[X]  Fuga libera a cinque voci e tre soggetti:  285-343.

You were saying?

[Etude]

I know it's not piano (nor Sonata form), but what was that Organ piece? It is supposed to play for 720 years or something. Someone mentioned it a while back, because FINALLY the second note was being played or something ^_^;; I would love to watch the guy playing that! *j/k*

That is Organ²/ASLSP by John Cage.  THIS performance is intended to last 639 years from 2000, but it has indefinite tempo or duration!  The only tempo marking is in the title!  As SLow(ly) aS Possible.  It's an "arrangement" from the piano piece - ASLSP, which lasts from 5 minutes to half an hour, off the top of my head.

snippets - Organ²/ASLSP



The original Piano Piece -




https://www.john-cage.halberstadt.de/new/index.php?l=e

[ryguillian]

Does Powell or anybody else have plans to perform or record Sorabji's Opus archimagicum?

[Etude]

Does Powell or anybody else have plans to perform or record Sorabji's Opus archimagicum?

I remember that question being raised before here, and as I remember Alistair saying - "Jonathan Powell has no more plans to record SOrabji's fifth sonata than anyone."

It's a shame, but what we really need is a decent recording of Clavicembalisticum.

[pianistimo]

i'm really behind the times.  that organ piece is wierd.  now that's surreal.

this makes me think of interactive audiences (for some reason).  what if a composer wrote a piece that included the coughing and whatever else into the score?  then, each person would take a turn doing it at precisely the moment it was called for (LCD screen).  then maybe people would gladly sit through the longer performance - since they had an active part.

[Etude]

i'm really behind the times.  that organ piece is wierd.  now that's surreal.

this makes me think of interactive audiences (for some reason).  what if a composer wrote a piece that included the coughing and whatever else into the score?  then, each person would take a turn doing it at precisely the moment it was called for (LCD screen).  then maybe people would gladly sit through the longer performance - since they had an active part.

Well, something like that's been done (without the LCD screen).  Every single sound heard in a performance of Cage's 4'33 becomes part of the piece.  Even coughing. 

[chopiabin]

What is the meaning behind Sorabji's opus titles? Or are they just to make people go "Ohh, that sounds weird" and get attention?

[superstition2]

Cage isn't a composer, he's a comedian.

[Etude]

What is the meaning behind Sorabji's opus titles? Or are they just to make people go "Ohh, that sounds weird" and get attention?

Opus Clavicembalisticum - work for piano/keyboard, or piano work.
Opus Archimagicum - Work of the Arch-Mage
Le Jardin Parfume - The Perfumed Garden 

etc.

[BoliverAllmon]

what language is it?

[Etude]

first two are Latin
last is french

[BoliverAllmon]

now that you mention it, duh that last one looks french.

thanks for the clarification

[Etude]

No problem. 

By the way, the last one is based on this book - The Perfumed Garden.

[chopiabin]

Opus Clavicembalisticum - work for piano/keyboard, or piano work.
Opus Archimagicum - Work of the Arch-Mage
Le Jardin Parfume - The Perfumed Garden 

etc.

Since when did 'clavicembalisticum" mean piano work? And who in the hell is the arch-mage?

[Etude]

If you want to know all the details so badly, try getting yourself a copy of this:



Maybe I won't have to keep making quotes from it, then.

[stevie]

No problem. 

By the way, the last one is based on this book - The Perfumed Garden.

Know, O Vizir (God be good to you!), that this chapter, which treats of the size of the virile member, is of the first importance both for men and women. For the men because from a good-sized and vigorous member there springs the affection and love of women; for the women, because it is by such members that their amorous passions are appeased, and the greatest pleasure is procured for them.


hahaha, i get spam like this in my inbox all the time

[ahinton]

was rereading a now overdue book before returning it.  (debussy: on music) and found that paul dukas's piano sonata is a massive, four-movement work that lasts OVER AN HOUR!  i don't think i've ever heard it.  has anyone played it?

it is dense in style and uses three staves.  "in it's constantly roving chromaticism it strongly recalls franck and d'indy, as well as referring to the sonatas of beethoven." 

are there any sonatas longer than this one?

Dukas's piano sonata in E flat minor is indeed long by usual standards for such things, but were it to be made to last "over and hour" the performance would have to be pretty unpleasantly sluggish.

Shouldn't this thread be under "Repertoire"?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I remember that question being raised before here, and as I remember Alistair saying - "Jonathan Powell has no more plans to record Sorabji's fifth sonata than anyone."

It's a shame, but what we really need is a decent recording of Clavicembalisticum.

Sorabji's Fifth and last piano sonata is indeed longer than the Fourth. The Fourth, in Jonathan Powell's spectacularly fine world première recording comes in at a little over 2 hours 20 minutes; the duration of the Fifth can only be guessed in the absence of performances or recordings, but I imagine it to be rather more than twice the length of its immediate predecessor. No one will even prepare a performance of Fifth sonata, let alone record it, until there is a decent typeset edition; one is being prepared at the moment, but it is, of course, a massive undertaking, so don't expect it any time soon.

Sorabji's six piano sonatas (the first bore no number and the second was called No. 1) are each longer than the previous one. So far, all have been performed except no. 5 and four of them have been recorded commercially (although no. 3 has yet to be released).

A new recording of OC is indeed required - and Jonathan Powell will make one when he feels ready!

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

thanks for answering my overly curious question.  i now know to be careful about what i ask.  5 hours is awful.  torturous.  hope it doesn't get done any time soon.  i mean, how long would that take to get into one's repertoire?  or, do people typically use the music on something like that?

[ahinton]

thanks for answering my overly curious question.  i now know to be careful about what i ask.  5 hours is awful.  torturous.  hope it doesn't get done any time soon.  i mean, how long would that take to get into one's repertoire?  or, do people typically use the music on something like that?

Why should it be? It surely depends upon the quality of the music. I said it wouldn't get done any time soon and gave reasons why, but it will be done eventually. I think you are referring to playing from memory; Jonathan Powell and most other Sorabji performers usually don't do this - and why should they unless they want to and/or feel ready to?

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

i see black and white.  and, i see what you mean.  if other people enjoy it, let them.  and, if the performers don't HAVE to memorize the music, at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that THEY know they didn't hit any wrong notes.

[cherub_rocker1979]

Since when did 'clavicembalisticum" mean piano work? And who in the hell is the arch-mage?

"Opus" means "Work"

[Jacey1973]

That is Organ²/ASLSP by John Cage.  THIS performance is intended to last 639 years from 2000, but it has indefinite tempo or duration!  The only tempo marking is in the title!  As SLow(ly) aS Possible.  It's an "arrangement" from the piano piece - ASLSP, which lasts from 5 minutes to half an hour, off the top of my head.

snippets - Organ²/ASLSP



The original Piano Piece -




https://www.john-cage.halberstadt.de/new/index.php?l=e

Oh we talking about proper music or silly "music"??  

[Etude]

That is Organ²/ASLSP by John Cage.  THIS performance is intended to last 639 years from 2000, but it has indefinite tempo or duration!  The only tempo marking is in the title!  As SLow(ly) aS Possible.  It's an "arrangement" from the piano piece - ASLSP, which lasts from 5 minutes to half an hour, off the top of my head.

snippets - Organ²/ASLSP



The original Piano Piece -




https://www.john-cage.halberstadt.de/new/index.php?l=e

Oh we talking about proper music or silly "music"??  

No.

[ahinton]

Oh we talking about proper music or silly "music"??  


No.

Well, one thing seems certain - "we" are no longer talking about piano sonatas here. The thread enquiry was about "the longest piano sonata" (for what that may be worth, beyond passing statistical interest) and, earlier on, I think that it was pretty much established that this dubious accolade goes to Sorabji's Fifth Piano Sonata. Unless anyone knows of and tells us about an even longer piano piece entitled "sonata" (i.e. one well in excess of five hours' duration), shouldn't we now perhaps leave it at that?

For the record, most pieces for piano entitled "sonata" occupy less than one hour in performance; some come close to the hour, such as the "Hammerklavier", the Dukas (which has already been mentioned), the Benjamin Dale and (if I may be permitted to cite it here) my own fifth (and probably last) piano sonata. I think that the American contemporary composer Andrew Violette has one that's about three hours long.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

that's very cool you wrote five!  and, that you have the good sense to know what people can actually handle (concentration-wise).  stretching the limits of form and tonality only go so far.  i kind of settled for poulenc's open chords and the exploration of polytonality and barber's affinity for the romantic forms in their actual length.  if i were to compose a full sonata - i would do that, too - keep it under an hour. 

what are some of the things that you explored in each of your piano sonatas?  how do you suggest that students approach longer sonatas?  (sort of like a fantasy piece - where you don't look for form as much as content?  or what do you look for?)