Sight-reading and not looking down at the keys.

[darla]

Hi,
I'm a beginner and I've been sight-reading (working through Richman's book--about 3/4th done) for six months and not looking down at the keys and have made good progress, however, I still use the "Braille" method of feeling for the black keys and playing a lot between the black keys as a result.  My question is should I: 1) continue on this route and assume with more experience I will become less dependent on the black keys or 2) start now (breaking my addiction to the black keys) and make "educated" guesses on where the white keys are and be willing to make a lot more mistakes.

Thanks for any advice.
D-

[Ruro]

Well, I personally never followed the Braille method, it would have to take some quick brain clocking and width detection between the F# and Eb and so forth so master it, so I sorta went for the "Educated Guesses" method. I can perform "Innocence" (By Burgmuller) sometimes perfectly (hitting the right notes) without looking, that's including the jumps at the end.

I guess I still havn't had much "Keyboard Geography" experience to be waving hands and arms blindfolded to get it right all the time, but I assume it will eventually become extremely accurate. I have tried the Braille method mind, I have to move quite slowly to get it right, I guess with time though, it would work wonders!

On the performance channel I watched Ray Charles in Concert, if memory serves he used the Braille technique, and darn it served him well! ^_^

My suggestion is, based on my limited experience, go with which ever (I assume you could develop both!), but as long as you bag one of the skills, your set to go!

[aryantes]

When I watch my teacher sight read pieces he uses the "braille" method.

He does it pretty damned fast though. However, when he flies from one spot to another and feels for the black keys, he does not play in between them that often. He will find the black notes and quickly move his hand back to where the hand position would be if he were actually practicing and memorizing and learning the piece.

Although he told me that there is much more to it than that. He reads which chords are active and where the music is going so he is deciding that if the right hand has to go into a position for notes in a G chord then maybe the ring finger will hit the black note and be used as a guide.

It was very impressive when I saw him doing it and I don't think you can really go wrong with it if you get used to it.

Granted, it won't be as good if you can actually use no guides and hit every note accurately since that is inevitably faster but I'd imagine that takes many years of practice hehe and then the piano is just part of you.

[lostinidlewonder]

I ask students to try an visualise a keyboard in their minds eye and what particular note their finger is holding down. Then I ask them to notice where is it in refference to the black notes, the group of 2(C#D#) or 3(F#G#A#).

The note they must move to is visualised in their minds eye in the keyboard in relation to the previous note that their finger is holding down. I ask if it is singluar notes does the note move White to Black, Black to White, White to White or White to Black because this causes a particular sense of direction for the hand.

I ask does the note move from somewhere in the group of 3 blacks to the group of 2, or from within just the group of 3 or just the group of 2. This makes the movement to the piano in only 2 groups instead of 12 individual notes, and is the sense I feel we need to play without looking at the hands.

[tomp86]

Hi all. Quick question related to this. I'm just wanting to know if I should not need to look at my hands at all in the very last bar of little prelude in F major?  I'm finding I'm very rarely getting every note right if I don't look down at all



P.S. lostinidlewonder wow you've been active here for 16 years! Thank you for your desire for helping people 

[lelle]

Hi all. Quick question related to this. I'm just wanting to know if I should not need to look at my hands at all in the very last bar of little prelude in F major?  I'm finding I'm very rarely getting every note right if I don't look down at all



P.S. lostinidlewonder wow you've been active here for 16 years! Thank you for your desire for helping people 

What do you mean by "should"? I can read that without looking at my hands but I have gone to music college so I have a lot of experience playing the piano. So if by should you mean "is it possible" then yes, it is. If by "should" you mean you should be able to do it before you have enough experience to be able to automatically do it, then no The more familiar your brain is with the scales and the keyboard layout and how each interval feels between each set of your fingers, the easier it becomes. You can sort of use legato to navigate to each new key. You rest on the finger(s) currently playing and use that anchor point to know where the next key is, sort of.

[ranjit]

It is quite possible to play the last bar without looking at your hands. Note the hand positions and the octave distance in the left hand. All of it falls under a single hand position, more or less.

[tomp86]

What do you mean by "should"? I can read that without looking at my hands but I have gone to music college so I have a lot of experience playing the piano. So if by should you mean "is it possible" then yes, it is. If by "should" you mean you should be able to do it before you have enough experience to be able to automatically do it, then no The more familiar your brain is with the scales and the keyboard layout and how each interval feels between each set of your fingers, the easier it becomes. You can sort of use legato to navigate to each new key. You rest on the finger(s) currently playing and use that anchor point to know where the next key is, sort of.

Hi lelle. I think I get your point here. As a beginner sight-reader, I am trying to avoid looking at my hands as the experts say that is the most beneficial way to practice.  The very last bath in the life of me I cannot get my skill level so I think I should just compromise by looking at my hands once or twice

It is quite possible to play the last bar without looking at your hands. Note the hand positions and the octave distance in the left hand. All of it falls under a single hand position, more or less.

Hi Ranjit I agree with you that it is very possible just wondering as pro pianists do you prefer look at the hands or not? (for that last bar)

[ranjit]

Hi Ranjit I agree with you that it is very possible just wondering as pro pianists do you prefer look at the hands or not? (for that last bar)

I'm not a pro quite yet! But, at least for me, it wouldn't matter. If I was attempting to sight read, probably not. I could even play it with my eyes closed -- it wouldn't matter in the slightest.

[j_tour]

The very last bath in the life of me I cannot get my skill level so I think I should just compromise by looking at my hands once or twice.

I think I caught myself glancing down very briefly to make sure I nabbed the low E at the very end, as well as a quick peek at the LH in bar 3 (of the excerpt).

Probably didn't need to, but just a habit when something very slightly irregular happens on the page.  How many milliseconds exactly?  I don't know:  it's just kind of automatic and very quick.

I don't think you need to necessarily ban all hand-glances on principle, but if it's a brand new piece to you, there's a lot more to see on the page (scanning ahead, trying to calculate which hand you'll use to turn the page, or whatever).

[lostinidlewonder]

P.S. lostinidlewonder wow you've been active here for 16 years! Thank you for your desire for helping people 

ha time flies, thank you for your kind words.

I'm just wanting to know if I should not need to look at my hands at all in the very last bar of little prelude in F major

You mean you can play it all without sight until you get to the last bar? You should be able to use fingers that are playing the notes to help tell you where the next fingers go, do they go next to the note you are holding, do they jump over it, do they replace it, does that note not move? You can then formulate a logical statement which describes how all the notes move and what you should be feeling in your hands.

To put simply, no you should not NEED to look at your hands at all and if you find you have inaccuracies when doing it then go about the formulated logical statments and witness it in action in your fingers positional movements and held locations.

[tomp86]

ha time flies, thank you for your kind words.
You mean you can play it all without sight until you get to the last bar? You should be able to use fingers that are playing the notes to help tell you where the next fingers go, do they go next to the note you are holding, do they jump over it, do they replace it, does that note not move? You can then formulate a logical statement which describes how all the notes move and what you should be feeling in your hands.

To put simply, no you should not NEED to look at your hands at all and if you find you have inaccuracies when doing it then go about the formulated logical statments and witness it in action in your fingers positional movements and held locations.

You're welcome you have passed on a lot of knowledge to many people. Yes in particular the very last bar I'm having issues with.  I'm not sure yet why, if it is the multiple voices or intervals I'm not used to yet.  I will use your logical formula advice does to try to conquer this without looking on the keyboard. Thanks

[lostinidlewonder]

I don't see anything specifically strange about the ending that should cause you to make errors. The LH plays a pattern for endings in Bach you see everywhere so that can't be the issue (if it is probably the RH is distracting you too much), the RH with the chord vs single note, just play them as held chords and observe how they all move/relate to one another.

So instead of in the last bar playing it broken like:

Bb (EG)
A (DF)
G (CF)
etc

play them as quaver triad chords and observe how you move from one chord to the next, once you satisfy that breaking it up causes no difference in positional shifts so is directly related and should be very very easy.

[tomp86]

I don't see anything specifically strange about the ending that should cause you to make errors. The LH plays a pattern for endings in Bach you see everywhere so that can't be the issue (if it is probably the RH is distracting you too much), the RH with the chord vs single note, just play them as held chords and observe how they all move/relate to one another.

So instead of in the last bar playing it broken like:

Bb (EG)
A (DF)
G (CF)
etc

play them as quaver triad chords and observe how you move from one chord to the next, once you satisfy that breaking it up causes no difference in positional shifts so is directly related and should be very very easy.

Wow. I wish I saw your reply a little sooner. I played that last part about 150 times and finally started to get it consistently. Then I read your reply and I only just realized these were broken chords in the right hand.  I've now tried your technique of playing the whole chord instead of playing it broken and it definitely helps me get used to fingering

 I think you are right about the right hand distracting me and causing errors because I could play them hand separately okay but when putting together it created errors.  I also haven't done much chord-focused training yet and do not have 1. good recognition of many chords 2. how they should fall into the fingers and 3. shift from each other (without looking down). I'm sure all this isn't helping

[lostinidlewonder]

I played that last part about 150 times and finally started to get it consistently.

150 times is just torture how did you manage that!

I also haven't done much chord-focused training yet and do not have 1. good recognition of many chords 2. how they should fall into the fingers and 3. shift from each other (without looking down). I'm sure all this isn't helping

You don't need to know the chord names it can be any combination of notes it really doesn't need a name attached to it until later on then once you know them so well you really don't have to think about them with a name once more. Personally when I learn a piece I am not thinking about the chord names or anything theoretical, everything I do is about playing the piece with mastery and I find thinking too much gets in the way, just go ahead and do it thinking in a manner which accelerates your learning rather than just adds more information unnecessarily.
 
For example:
BbEG chord moving to ADF, you should feel the Bb moving chromatically to A, and the EG going across to DF with a tone (2 semitones).

ADF - GCF, notice the AD - GC is again a tonal movement and not the F is stuck in place.

etc etc

You can create shape that these chords create on the keyboard and draw them out as if you where looking at the piano paralell with the keys. (so for example a C minor chord CEbG might be considered a triangle). These type of shape observations imho have much more practical use than merely naming chord family names, their inversions or progressions what have you.

These type of obervations and feeling them in your hand and noticing which fingers move where is important, more so than naming the chord family, inversion useages etc etc. I haven't written the finger numbers in but I am sure you can add that yourself.

People will say in time you can see a chord and immediately say what it is in a theoretical sense, but I can tell you now that if you go even further you no longer care about the names of the chords because you see it terms of sound and feeling which connects to your playing mechanics many times faster than verbalizing it in your head with words.

[tomp86]

150 times is just torture how did you manage that!

It was not fun. The sound of the same melody is making me uneasy but I felt I had to conquer it

You don't need to know the chord names it can be any combination of notes it really doesn't need a name attached to it until later on then once you know them so well you really don't have to think about them with a name once more. Personally when I learn a piece I am not thinking about the chord names or anything theoretical, everything I do is about playing the piece with mastery and I find thinking too much gets in the way, just go ahead and do it thinking in a manner which accelerates your learning rather than just adds more information unnecessarily.
 
For example:
BbEG chord moving to ADF, you should feel the Bb moving chromatically to A, and the EG going across to DF with a tone (2 semitones).

ADF - GCF, notice the AD - GC is again a tonal movement and not the F is stuck in place.

etc etc

You can create shape that these chords create on the keyboard and draw them out as if you where looking at the piano paralell with the keys. (so for example a C minor chord CEbG might be considered a triangle). These type of shape observations imho have much more practical use than merely naming chord family names, their inversions or progressions what have you.

These type of obervations and feeling them in your hand and noticing which fingers move where is important, more so than naming the chord family, inversion useages etc etc. I haven't written the finger numbers in but I am sure you can add that yourself.

People will say in time you can see a chord and immediately say what it is in a theoretical sense, but I can tell you now that if you go even further you no longer care about the names of the chords because you see it terms of sound and feeling which connects to your playing mechanics many times faster than verbalizing it in your head with words.

Thanks for this advice man. I've taken it all in and going to apply it to the new pieces I learn. Everything you said makes perfect logical sense. I envy your mastery 

[tomp86]

Hey guys I'm working on a new piece and once again I'm having some doubts on the very end of a new prelude. This one is js bach's prelude in c major

I have thought of 2 ways of tackling these octave leaps to make them more accurate but I'm not sure if it's a good piano technique.

1. On the RF where I've highlighted there is a leap from G (finger 5) to G (finger 2).
To make this more accurate than just going by feeling I thought you could put the thumb (1) hovering above g in normal octave stance and then place finger 2 where the thumb is positioned (g)

2. On the LH where I've highlighted there is an octave leap from G using finger 1 to G using finger 2. My proposed technique would be to use the same as technique 1 above on the right hand. Start with an octave stance and then place finger 2 where the thumb is positioned.

Please let me know what you think and interested to know how the pro's handle this

[lostinidlewonder]

The RH shouldn't really feel like an octave leap. In the previous bar it plays the scale:

CDEF | G (GC)
1234 | 5  (25)

To play the (25) you should feel that the 5th finger replaces the 1st finger on the C rather than considering it in terms of an octave leap from G to G.

[tomp86]

The RH shouldn't really feel like an octave leap. In the previous bar it plays the scale:

CDEF | G (GC)
1234 | 5  (25)

To play the (25) you should feel that the 5th finger replaces the 1st finger on the C rather than considering it in terms of an octave leap from G to G.

That is awesome. Makes it much easier to play.  Thank you and for LH if I turn my hand 90° I can play 12 octaves easy enough I just need to practice it more

[quantum]

For the RH, think of it as ending a sentence on 5 and beginning a new sentence on 25.  If the notes were part of the same idea, the fingering you suggested would be a plausible solution. 

For the LH, you could do a 1,5 | 5.  However, it is more secure to place the break as written.  Connecting the  G(2) to C(5) in the final cadence, helps you think of the cadence as a unit. 

Attached, drew some boxes around notes and a bit of harmonic analysis to show how you might think of the passage when choosing your fingering with regard to phrasing and harmony.

[ranjit]

I would use the fingering in the score. In most normal situations, I would glance downward at the jump. If you're blindfolded or something, I see why you might want to do 15 and then switch fingers from 5 to 2, and then do 25, especially if it's at a slow tempo.

[soundfeelings]

darla, I'm honored that you are using my book to help with sight-reading. In my experience and observation of great sight-readers, it is a MYTH that they never look at their hands. My book will teach you the skill of not looking at your hands but in real life, I suggest that you allow yourself the freedom to glance down whenever you need to. To make this possible, try to keep your physical head aimed half-way, at the "fallboard" and then you could make quick eye movements down and back up, rather than moving your whole neck. This way, since the eye can travel much faster than the neck, you can glance down for a split second and then back up to the score and not get lost. Most people who don't know this, move their whole head to look down, which is much slower and by the time they look back up, they become lost and THAT is what causes the mistake.

[ranjit]

Wow, did you write the book? It's been a while, I'm curious if you have some fundamentally new ideas now.

[soundfeelings]

Yes, I am the author of Super Sight Reading Secrets: https://www.richmanmusicschool.com/products/super-sight-reading-secrets

I intend to release an updated version at some point that probably will have some videos as well.

[lostinidlewonder]

darla, I'm honored that you are using my book to help with sight-reading.

Yes, but it's 16 years ago, just in case you missed that.

[lelle]

Fascinating to see what makes long-time inactive users re-emerge sometimes!

[ranjit]

Yes, but it's 16 years ago, just in case you missed that.

Well, if it's any consolation, I checked out the book recently and found it quite nice! Although I think that once you progress beyond being able to recognize all the notes and rhythms at sight etc., there's not that much in the book that helps you progress, and it looks like you basically have to read a lot. I wonder if there's an Advanced Sight Reading Secrets coming up!

[tomp86]

For the LH, you could do a 1,5 | 5.  However, it is more secure to place the break as written.  Connecting the  G(2) to C(5) in the final cadence, helps you think of the cadence as a unit. 

Thanks for the analysis quantum. I do agree with this

I would use the fingering in the score. In most normal situations, I would glance downward at the jump. If you're blindfolded or something, I see why you might want to do 15 and then switch fingers from 5 to 2, and then do 25, especially if it's at a slow tempo.

Is it better to leap here or to just play it? Has anyone injured their wrist playing 12 octaves?

[ranjit]

Is it better to leap here or to just play it? Has anyone injured their wrist playing 12 octaves?

Play the octave 15, then use finger substitution, swap 5 for 2, and then pay 25, if you really want to play without lifting the hand. Otherwise, according to the fingering in the score, you are supposed to jump.

[tomp86]

Play the octave 15, then use finger substitution, swap 5 for 2, and then pay 25, if you really want to play without lifting the hand. Otherwise, according to the fingering in the score, you are supposed to jump.

Ok 

[tomp86]

Interestingly,  pianostreet has notated 155 for the last 3 left hand notes

https://www.pianostreet.com/members/free/bach_prelude_in_c_939_pse.pdf

[lostinidlewonder]

155 seems too loose with the 5th finger at the end, 153 would feel more secure. The phrasing (see the legato ties) of both editions are different that's why you have the different fingerings.

[tomp86]

155 seems too loose with the 5th finger at the end, 153 would feel more secure. The phrasing (see the legato ties) of both editions are different that's why you have the different fingerings.

Very good point 

I am currently examining a piece in e-flat major which is a new key for me. I've practiced the scales and have tried to determine good fingering for both LH and RH.  I was wondering if anyone had some free time they could possibly let me know if I've made any poor fingering decisions.  I've marked out the numbers in greylead. Not super easy to read on the computer, sorry

[ranjit]

This might be a bit unconventional, but if you have the hand span for it, you could also do a 135. It would be kind of ridiculous, but your fingers would never have to leave the keys.

[anacrusis]

Very good point 

I am currently examining a piece in e-flat major which is a new key for me. I've practiced the scales and have tried to determine good fingering for both LH and RH.  I was wondering if anyone had some free time they could possibly let me know if I've made any poor fingering decisions.  I've marked out the numbers in greylead. Not super easy to read on the computer, sorry

I think your fingering looks fine! The fingering provided by the editor basically implies the solution you have made. There are one or two places where I would use another finger than what you chose but it's basically up to taste or hand structure.

[tomp86]

I think your fingering looks fine! The fingering provided by the editor basically implies the solution you have made. There are one or two places where I would use another finger than what you chose but it's basically up to taste or hand structure.

Cool thanks! I agree with you the more I played there are some changes I would like to make just to make it more comfortable. By the way, I cannot find an audio recording of this piece anywhere online