Liszt's substitute for tonality!

[mikey6]

I was researching for program notes when I discovered that Liszt was working on a substitue for tonality as early as the 1830's.  I don't rememebr what it was called but aparently he had it with him in Rome before he died but it was lost around 1900.
Anyone know anything about it?

[pianistimo]

in the faust symphony, liszt used all twelve notes of the chromatic scale in the first theme.  this was the start of almost deciding at the beginning of piece that it was going to wander - perhaps way off - perhaps never returning to the tonality or key that it never was in.  i don't know what that is called, except atonality.

this article expresses what i understand:

https://andrewmarr.homestead.com/files/music/musicmystery.htm

as contrast to mozart (who also wrote chromatically) who tied in every chromatic note to the key that it was written in.  it's like a mental tie that he made that ensured that the notes would keep their places within the key of the piece.

wondering if someone can explain the composition techniques in 'harmonies poetiques et religiuses' and 'legends.'  they are several compositions that he wrote in rome aren't they?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

The piece is called Prelude omnitonique; not only has it been found, Leslie Howard has recorded it in his complete Liszt set: https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/67414-N.asp

[Bob]

There is a term to describe starting in one key and ending in another.  I forget what it is.  Anyone know?   Not sure if it's what Lizst meant but it would be during his time.

[spirithorn]

There is a term to describe starting in one key and ending in another. 

Modulation

[g_s_223]

There is a term to describe starting in one key and ending in another.  I forget what it is.  Anyone know?   Not sure if it's what Lizst meant but it would be during his time.

It's called "progressive tonality", and was used particularly by Carl Nielsen, and also Mahler.

[mikey6]

hmm, would that apply to things like Beethoven 5 (cmin-Cmaj) or is it only when finishing in a non related key?

[superstition2]

Liszt wrote a piece called "bagatelle without tonality" by the way.

[mrchops10]

There is a term to describe starting in one key and ending in another.  I forget what it is.  Anyone know?   Not sure if it's what Lizst meant but it would be during his time.

It seems to me this isn't a substitute for tonality at all, because it involves the concept of keys. It requires tonality in order to exist.

[g_s_223]

hmm, would that apply to things like Beethoven 5 (cmin-Cmaj) or is it only when finishing in a non related key?

No, that example is described as a "change of mode" (from minor to major) and is absolutely standard classical practice: the majority of classical symphonies which start in the minor mode subsequently end in the corresponding major mode of the same "key centre" which is (plain) C in the example you quote.

Mahler's 5th, 7th, and 9th Symphonies all start and end in different key centres (and keys/modes) and so are examples of progressive tonality.

[prometheus]

Bach also uses all 12 notes in the subject of WTC fugue No.24 BI. This doesn't mean the piece has no tonality. It actually has nothing to do with it.

[Bob]

My other guess is that Liszt was using a set of pitches or intervals, a cell, a row.  That could be a method of blurring tonality or getting rid of it.  1830 seems early for that though.  Maybe later in life, but sets don't seem very much like Liszt to me unless it's the end of his life.

Mikey6  where did you get your info?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

From "Liszt", by Derek Watson:

"In 1832 Liszt attended a series of lectures on the phiolsophy of music by Fetis ... Fetis defined four harmonic periods: unitonique (early modal), transitonique (simple major/minor), pluritonique (more modulatory) and omnitonique (constantly modulatory and totally ambiguous) ... the concept of a free system of harmonic movement replacing the laws governing classical tonality fascinated Liszt who composed a Prelude omnitonique."

[mikey6]

Mikey6  where did you get your info?

I can't remember exactly, i borrowed a heap of books from the library for researching program notes and it was mentioned in one of them.  Sitwell was one, it's the only one I can remember.
The description was that one of his pupils was visiting liszt in his old age and he had a page with him that he kept hold of, apparently he was working on this substitue for tonality as early as the 1830's - I remember that coz it said almost a 100 years before Schoenberg devised his system.  but it was lost around the 1900's.

The Faust symphony is regarded as the the first theme using a 12 note tone row albeit made up of 4 augmented chords..  Dunno if that somehow fits into the discussion.

[mikey6]

Found it! was the prelude omnitonique, thanks ronde_des_sylphes. Does anyone have the recording? like to know what the deal with it is.

[Bob]

Who is this Fetiz guy?

Does no one else find it facinating they were talking about dissolving tonality as far back as the 1830's?

[Bob]

Fetis

"1784–1871, Belgian music theorist, historian, and composer. A teacher and librarian at the Paris Conservatory, he became (1833) director of the conservatory at Brussels. He wrote two theoretical works (1824, 1844). His Biographie universelle des musiciens (8 vol., 1835–44) and Histoire général de la musique (1869–76), despite inaccuracies, are of great value to music historians. In Paris in 1827 he founded Revue musicale. He wrote biographies of Paganini and Stradivarius and composed two symphonies, four operas, piano music, chamber music, and some church music."

https://www.bartleby.com/65/fe/Fetis-Fr.html

[mikey6]

www.fedegarcia.net/music/liszt.pdf

little off topic but may prove interesting

[Bob]

Bob searches for more info...

- chords in relation to the tonal center and in terms of stability
- tonality in relation to each other

Fetis Liszt tonality
https://www.biu.ac.il/hu/mu/min-ad02/kreinin.html
Arnold Schoenberg and Max Reger: Some Parallels
Yulia Kreinin
Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Detailed.  Mentions Schoenberg and Reger
the problem of tonality and the problem of dissonance
Reger:  Tonality as Fetis defined it fifty years ago is too limited for 1902. I consistently act in accordance with Liszt’s statement: Any chord can be followed by any other chord.
Hermann Grabner
Beiträge zur Modulationslehre (On the Theory of Modulation).
Structural Functions of Harmony
alleged laws of dissonance treatment—descend, ascend, or sustain—were long ago overtaken by the hoary reality of a fourth law: skip away from the dissonance
dissonance has meaning only if it is followed by consonance
Schoenberg and Reger praise Brahms, Bach
structural asymmetry of the phrases and periods
-->> A comparison of Schoenberg and Reger with tonality thrown in.



https://www.andymilne.dial.pipex.com/Modulation.shtml
contains "region" map from Schoenberg that describes how to move from one tonality to another.
Looks like a decent site on tonality.  Detailed.  Has links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonality

https://www.musique.umontreal.ca/personnel/Belkin/bk.H/H4.html

https://www.music.gla.ac.uk/~tfowler/essays/Hindemith.html


https://www.mariotrane.com/pages/hindemith.htm 
a good summary of Hindemith's book, Craft of Musical Composition


https://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AUHG8KSHI529U/103-5826472-4135841?_encoding=UTF8&display=public&page=2