how about bigger hands surgery?!

[fiasco]

Jake: What's wrong with me? My hands.
Joey: Your hands? What about 'em?
Jake: I got these small hands. I got a little girl's hands.
Joey: I got 'em too. What's the difference?
Jake: You know what that means? No matter how big I get, no matter who I fight, no matter what I do, I ain't never gonna fight Joe Louis.
Joey: Yeah, that's right. He's a heavy-weight. You're a middle-weight. What of it?
Jake: I ain't ever gonna get a chance to fight the best there is. And you know somethin'. I'm better than him. I ain't never gonna get a chance. You're askin' what's wrong.
Joey: But you're crazy to even think about somethin' like that...
-Raging Bull

I was thinking last night, after yet another failed attempt to play the coda of the Chopin ballade #1 correctly because I can't hit the 2-5 spreads with my Jake LaMotta hands, is there something one can do to make their fingers stretch wider?  Excercise?  Surgery?  I mean, people get corrective surgery all the time, make certain parts bigger, or smaller, add hair or take it away...  What about removing some of the webbing between my fingers so I can stretch further, or something?  What if I slept at night with braces between my fingers like one would put in a new pair of shoes?  When I was a kid my teacher told me of a pianist who hung bricks from his fingers in order to make them longer.  He ended up destroying his hands, so I guess that's out.  I just feel like I can play these pieces, I have the drive to learn them, but the bigger chords and spreads hold me back.  I can either resign to the fact that I'll never fight Joe Louis, or play Liszt, or I can figure out a way to make my hands act bigger.  Anyone?

[tryer]

See my post further down the Forum (Physical Impossibility!) Same question, more or less, but I am blaming it on being a woman and that's that. However, as you will see I have been told differently! I will be reading any answers you get with great interest.

Tryer

[thalbergmad]

Have a look at these.

Horowitz and Godowsky must know what they are doing.

The answer is practise.

[fiasco]

Thanks for the exercise sheets, I'll give 'em a try tonight.

[steve jones]

I have successfully improved my LH reach using a combination of passive and dynamic stretches. Both very gentle, nothing aggressive. Essential, I adapted the ideas from a book titled 'Stretching Scientifically' by Thomas Kurtz, to piano exercises. Then again, Iv recently had a strange thing happen to one of my fingers (probably not piano related). But I should wait a few days for me to find out before trying anything.

Eitherway, I can now play black - black and white - white tenths without problems. The white key tenth is still a stretch, I cant just hit like I would a ninth. But never the less, I can play those intevals without having to strain like a pregnant cat  The RH hasnt been trained at all in this area, and I can only do a black - black tenth, and thats with a really hard stretch. It seems as though the thumb on this hands has no flexibility, and this means my 5 - 1 angle is closer to 90 degrees that 180.

Im not sure what your hands are like, but Im sure if you go about it right you can improve your stretch. If you can get your 5 - 1 nearly at 180 with your palm flat, then thats the max you'll reach. Good luck!

Btw, I cant play those Godowsky chords! I can get my fingers on to them, JUST. But not play them. Five finger tenth chords are impossible.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

do you know what's even sadder? when you have good big hands and yet can't play some music properly/with ease. i find playing mozart really difficult! it's frustrating coz im gifted with a good size of hands, but i don't much as to know how to use them the right way.

[steve jones]

I must admit, I dont go in for the 'bigger is better' attitude with respect to pianist's hands. Infact, given the immense difference between hands in concert level players, I dont think it is a valid argument for not playing certain pieces.

As we all know, there are numerous pianists with very small hands who play the 'big' rep supperbly. Ashkenazy for one, Idil Biret another (I hear she has hands spanning a mere octave). I mean, when you consider the technical difficulties these players have to master, its not surprising that they dont seem phased by the occassional spread chord. Even the great Kissin appears to break chords now and again (like the last chord of the Rach 2 intro).

So Ivan, I would not beat yourself up about it. Having a large hand doesnt really make life any easier for you. It just means that your major difficulties may arise in areas different from some like fiasco. Mozart seems like music that would not benefit at all from a wide span, and possibly quite the opposite. We all have issues to face with this instrument.

Fiasco,

This appears to be a big a problem for you, so I guess you should channel much of your effort to finding ways around the problem. Master the art of spreading and rolling chords for one. Try to achieve your max range of motion. Experiment with different fingerings.

The passage may seem impossible to you, but I guarentee it isnt. Iv had the same feelings before. Some passages seem to require a massive reach, but you'll always find a small handed player who can nail them. I got really freaked when I saw the nasty bass arps in the Beethoven Op90 Mvt 1 which feature intervals of all tenths (yep, the long ones too!). Yet I know that its possible to play if you can develop the ability to jump between notes well. Just because I cant do it, doesnt mean it isnt possible!

[crazy for ivan moravec]

hmmm... nah... i still believe that bigger hands is better/advantageous (but not that freaky big). but of course, it does NOT necessarily mean you're a better pianist! at the same time, hand size is a valid argument for not playing certain pieces, IMO.

Biret and Ashkenazy, they naturally succeeded because they simply wanted their careers to happen, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. if there's a will to play rach 3 superbly, there will be a way, even if you have small hands (Ashkenazy's hands may be short, but they're stubby). and they can play those pieces simply because it is still possible for them to do so, even though we think their hands are small.

it's possible that you haven't encountered really small hands... we probably have here in my country 1 out of 12 pianists with the span of only a 7th, and sooo thin... but let's not say they aren't cut out to be pianists simply because they want to be pianists and a lot of them play really beautifully.
but definitely, their disadvantage of forcing to play a rachmaninoff etude, for example, is they get easily tired and they're more prone to injury, and musically speaking, too many chord breaks just get in the way.

what happens is that, they are advised not to study those pieces. because it's simply almost impossible and a futile attempt for them to do so.

but those with large hands are given "light" pieces like mozart, scarlatti, haydn, etc... isn't that an advantage? they get to work/study on anything while those with small hands have limitations.

[steve jones]

Ivan,

Oh, believe me, I totally agree that excessively small hands is a disadvantage. I was speaking more about people who, for example cant reach further than a ninth. Iv watched videos of piansits who clearly are restricted in this way, playing pieces by Chopin extremely well - Sergio Tiempo roles and spreads many of the nasty chords in Prelude 16, yet you have to really look and listen close to tell as its technically brilliant. Mei Ting Sun is another, he has to roll the first chord of this prelude, yet his performance of it is excellent (imo).

If you are talking about people with an octave reach, then that would cause major problems Id imagine. I must admit, even with my 'average' reach, I still find some octave chords tricky. But then again, I think that my hand is very well suited to Bach, Mozart and Beethoven. Most of these pieces seem to fit my hand like a glove. Id think that if I had fatter fingers, some of the Bach and Mozart would be extremely tricky.

Again, its all 'swings and roundabouts' - we each have our particular physical advantages and disadvantages. With respect the passage mentioned in this thread...

I cant comment to much as its way above my level. I couldnt play this with Rachmaninov's hands! But I have looked at the music, and the 2-5 stretch doesnt seems a problem in the slightest. It would probably be best to know what fiasco is able to reach between 2-5 before making to many suggestions. I think a comfortable octave is about average, and this would facilitate this passage nicely Id imagine.

[fiasco]

I just think about the shorter NBA players who have to compete with guys who're almost two feet taller than them...  If a guy who's 5'6" can slam dunk, then one would imagine that he's more talented and/or motivated to practice than a guy who can slam dunk at 7' tall.  However, when one hears Hoffman, for example, it isn't really said, "Wow, all that, and with such small hands!"  I do feel that pianists with smaller hands deserve more credit than their bigger-pawed colleagues, because they obviously have to work harder to achieve the same result.  A serious pianist needs three things:  talent, drive, and physical ability.  Lack one of these, and you're gonna have problems, so one must make up for it in the other two.  I suppose I can compensate for a physical shortcoming with with the drive to practice stretching more...

Which reminds me... I was having problems with a few of the chords at the end of the Rach Prelude C#m, especially in the left hand: F# A E F#.  It's a total impossibility for me to get my index finger around the black key to hit that E, so I have no choice but to drop it.  Another is the same chord except with a B# in place of the A.  And I read about Hoffman's small hands, so I watched my video of him performing this piece frame-by-frame to see how he hit these chords.  It's hard to tell, but it looks like he might've changed them...?  I also read that Steinway made a special keyboard for him?  Is that true?

[thalbergmad]

I also read somewhere that Hoffman had a piano specially made, with keys of a lesser width than the norm.

[tompilk]

I also read somewhere that Hoffman had a piano specially made, with keys of a lesser width than the norm.

I bet Elton John has that... he has a "modified" Yamaha apparantly... I guess that what "modified" means, because he has small hands...

[steve jones]

Fiasco,

That Rach chord I guess is pretty tricky. Those chords where you need a wide 5 - 1 stretch, yet need 2 to play near 1 are really tricky. I was having a look at those Godowsky exercises, and he asks you to play this chord C, E, G, C, E. Getting the top C in makes this a crippler for me, yet the 5 - 1 stretch itself isnt a problem.

I guess you have five options:

- Play the bass note, then the rest of the chord as a block. Iv heard plenty of people do this on the Rach 2 intro, and it can somethings be more disceet than rolling.

- Roll the chord as an arpeggio. Do it quick and its hardly noticable. And infact, with much of Chopin's works, the longer chords are actually directed for arpegiation.

- Omit a note. I guess the top F# could go in this chord (depending on what notes are in the left hand). It seems that its the E thats the problem for you, so Im sure the piece wont flop if you lose it (again, that depends on the music, I not familar with where this chord falls within the progression).

- See if you can play a tricky note with the other hand. Iv seen this several times, where there is a really wide chord in the bass, then on another edition, the upper note / s will be played by the RH. This isnt always possible, but worth remembering as it can be a life saver.

- Sometimes, the thumb can play two notes. Chopin does this quite a bit, and infact Iv seen chords in the Gm ballade that appear to be much easier to play using this method. Often those chords when the 2 and 1 are close, this method can make it much easier. Unfortunately, as the F is sharp, you cant do it here. But again, keep this in minds as its a life saver!


With respect to the Ballade Coda - again, this music is to advanced for me to tackle right now. But I love the piece, and have a degree of familiarity with the score. If you physically cant manage the 2 - 5 fingering, then I guess the only option is to use the thumb instead. You will just need to be super fast with the wrist and hand!

Just so we're on the same page, you're talking about the RH part at the start of the Presto con fuoco, right? Where it asks you to play three notes between 2 - 5, then drop the lower note in a quaver later?


Tompilk,

Still waiting to see some more of your splendid mate! Loved your Liszt piece, cant wait to hear the Mozart and Scarlatti. 

[tompilk]

Still waiting to see some more of your splendid mate! Loved your Liszt piece, cant wait to hear the Mozart and Scarlatti.  Grin

Sorry. I totally forgot and have not been on for ages... however, I passed my Grade 8... WAHOOOOOOOOOO! I only got 107 out of 150 though (100 pass rate). I will try and post them tonight... because my parents are out so i can get a really long practise in without them being annoyed!!!

[steve jones]

Tompilk,

You are the man! Congrats on your successful exam, I bet that must be a great feeling.

[g_s_223]

The theme of the pianist who has an accident to his hands and then has them transplanted with  those from a deceased person is well-known in the cinema. The other person was of course a raving psycopath of some sort.

Look out for "Mad Love" with Peter Lorre, and "The Hands of Orlac". More at https://www.kinoeye.org/02/04/goldberg04.php .

Don't ask, you never know what you might get...