Steinway quality over cost....Is it worth it?

[henrah]

Which Steinway is Berezovsky playing (I assume it's a Steinway) in his Transcendental Etudes videos? It sounds absolutely horrible with chords...

Is B the longest?

[cy_shuster]

The early models were A, B, C, D.  The D is the longest, 8' 11 3/4".

--Cy--

[saturation]

What about the Steinway model C?  227cm.  It seems forgotten most of the time.

Andy

Its not forgotten but its in a strange niche.  Its a Hamburg Steinway. 

Those who like the Steinway sound either like the B for themselves, and the D for concerts.  The C sounds like a B+ but costs so much more.  The A sounds like a B-, but is more space conserving and costs much less.

If you compare prices you'll find that the C is missing, its about $90,000.

https://www.bluebookofpianos.com/steinway.htm

Note if you had the money, interesting items come to play:

Why by a L or O, in lieu of the A?  The difference is about $3000.  But between an A and B, its $13,000.  Between a B and C, about $20,000 and C and D is $15,000.

[andyd]

My question was in response to Serge classing the Steinway B with such pianos as the Bluthner model 2. 

"I quite agree there are many good pianos :  Bechtein B210  Bluthner Model 2 Gotrian 225, Fazioli  228, Bosie 225 and Yamaha S6 are all fabulous. 
But make no mistake Steinway B is among them at the top of the list !!!"


The B is a desirable piano, I wouldn't say no to one, but I reckon it doesn't compare to a small-concert-grand like the Bosie 225 or Bluthner 227.
On the other hand, to me the B it is far nicer than an S6.

Don't want to start an argument about this, just reckon the C would be a better comparison.  They are pretty rare in the UK.  Never seen a new one in Steinway House, probably because the private buyer goes for a B, while for concerts the D rules
Incidentally I was told that Steinway had trouble with the C soundboards at one time (this from a Steinway fan who considers Hamburg D's from the 1930's as some of the all time greats)


Wonder what Curry thinks about the B when comparing to a Bosie 225/Bluthner 2?  He wrote one 'L' of an obituary on the pianofacts forum a few days back


Regards

Andy

[Axtremus]

My question was in response to Serge classing the Steinway B with such pianos as the Bluthner model 2. 

"I quite agree there are many good pianos :  Bechtein B210  Bluthner Model 2 Gotrian 225, Fazioli  228, Bosie 225 and Yamaha S6 are all fabulous. 
But make no mistake Steinway B is among them at the top of the list !!!"


The B is a desirable piano, I wouldn't say no to one, but I reckon it doesn't compare to a small-concert-grand like the Bosie 225 or Bluthner 227.
On the other hand, to me the B it is far nicer than an S6.

I've played a bunch of Steinway B's (new and used), an Yamaha S6 (new), a few Fazioli F-228's (new) and a few Bosie 225's (new and used, with and without extra bass notes) -- as a matter of opinion, mine is that the Steinway B and Yamaha S6 would stack up against the Bosie 225 just fine. Actually, I like Steinway B and S6 better than the Bosie 225's in general, as a matter of taste, and I'm partial to the Fazioli F-228's. Never played a Bluthner Model II or Bechstein B210 though.

[gfiore]

 Andy,  I would'nt compare the S&S B to a Bösendorfer 225. The 225 is 5.5 inches longer. A fairer comparison to  the B is the Bösendofer model 214. While still longer by 1.7  inches, the 214 has a much better bass and coloration of sound.

[andyd]

'Nuff said Ax, it is a matter of taste.  I'm hoping Jaques Samuel in London has at least one Faziloi on Monday, as yet I've never seen one.

I've played a new 214 and 214CS and liked them; actually I felt they needed to be played in, whereas with a new Steinway B you appear to get the full sound immediately.    I found the 214 Bosies subtle compared to Steinway B's I've played - B's 'zing' in your face all over the place(I think you'd call 'zing' complex overtones) and are immediately attractive. 
What a topical discussion...

Curry, I know you have a 214, but I assume both the 214 and the B have their little design/technical problems.  Could I tempt you to a short critique of each?

Regards

Andy

[gfiore]

 Well the 214 has a 23 note bass section, and the B a 20 note. The 214 has a much smoother transition into the tenor. The 214  has 9 double-wound bass strins from notes A0 to F#1.  The B has 8 single-wound  from A0-E1. The bass response in the B could be much improved if it had the double-wounds. Many rebuilders will rescale the bass, and also add seven wound b-chords into the tenor after the bass break. The B uses a duplex scale where all sorts off zings and whistles can occur if you don't address string leveling and string/hammer mating. The 214 accomplishes it's singing tone without the duplex, and avoids all of the possibility for the distracting noise(note the 225,280, and 290 use a front duplex only).
 Now here's the big difference. You're in the UK. You get to try a Hamburg B, not to be confused with the NY B. Quality control, and manufacuring methods are much better in the Hamburg instruments. A Hamburg B shuould compare favorably with a 214, except I think the Renner action of the 214 is much more refined and responsive than the Steinway action.

[andyd]

Sitting back stunned again

My first thought was that when you chose your piano, it wasn't just sound and touch you considered.  My second was amazement that noone has asked any follow up questions(even about the L) but that's probably just my ignorance of even the basics.

Trying to understand this, could I ask:
1.Looking at my Bluthner B upright, in the bass it has 12 very thick strings - are they double or singlewound?  How can you tell?  Then 15 notes (before the overstrung break) with two smaller wound strings presumably single wound yes?
That's a 27 note bass - larger than the 214 in order to comensate for the smaller soundboard and shorter string length of an upright?   I've always assumed the overstrung break defines the bass?   

2.There are another four notes in the tenor with two wound strings before they have three strings.  Is this to create a smoother transition and a scale design thing dependant on the length of strings?  The smaller the upright the higher up the keyboard you have the two wound strings?


Back with the 214/Steinway B, the 1.5inch/3cm difference in size could be just a cabinet thing and the string lengths identical, or in reality, the 214 could have even longer strings than the B when compared...do you know?  It would be more honest of manufacturers to describe a piano by it's longest string I suppose.


Regards

Andy

[gfiore]

 Andy, too lengthy to describe.
 For #2 the answer is yes.
  The 214 is longer by 1.5" Manufacturers do publish the #1 bass strung lengths.
 The B has a #1  bass string length of 59-1/4"
 The 214 is 65"
 The 225 is 69.3"

[chickering9]

...Back with the 214/Steinway B, the 1.5inch/3cm difference in size could be just a cabinet thing and the string lengths identical, or in reality, the 214 could have even longer strings than the B when compared...do you know?  It would be more honest of manufacturers to describe a piano by it's longest string I suppose...

Maybe, but string "sounding length" alone is not entirely the whole picture either.  Some manufacturers cram a longer length into a smaller cabinet by putting the bass bridge too close to the rim, while others go for better bridge placement and a sufficient "backscale".  The whole design (and its resulting sound) has to be considered and compared, rather than isolated cabinet lengths or string lengths.

[andyd]

Curry, no problem, sincere thanks for the insights.  Very interesting that the cabinet variation is 1.5inches and the #1 string variation 5.75inches. 
Chickering, I guessed someone would raise the whole design aspect, but that's nearly 6inches difference between what I and presumably many others would consider two excellent makers' same size pianos. 

One final question if I may, where are the #1 string lengths published? 

Regards

Andy

[gfiore]

 Andy, some manufacturers publish them in the sales catologues, and some on their websites. The main source for current production pianos comes from the Ancott Music Product Directory/Acoustic Piano Edition, but this guide can only be purchased by industry professionals.
 A manufacturer can also allow for longer bass string lengths with optimum bass bridge placement by altering the size of the case for that length of piano. You've seen narrow and wide tails, like the new Schimmel. Bösendorfer accomplished this in the 185, 214, and 280 by increasing the bass soundboard area by joining the wide tail to the spine by a sharper corner, giving it a total sounboard are of 2449 sq inches. The B is 2271 sq inches.
  Pic of splined tail    www.tinypic.com/s6io8l.jpg

[instrumentaliszt]

Their quality is deteriorating and overall the ratio of good to crap is increasing at an alarming rate.

And yes, they're hellishly overpriced (but if Steinway is overpriced, that leaves me with no words to describe Fazioli pricetags).

I'd rather buy a Bechstein any day of the week.

bechsteins days are gone i think..

if you want a really great piano for the best price - buy an old steinway and invest into the restauration (if you want even a better price-performance ratio then you can invest all your money to the inner of the insrument while not having the surface area made)

[emmdoubleew]

pianorama,

What makes you choose "Steinway" for this poll?
Why not choose, say, Bösendoefer or Fazioli or Stuarts or Steingraeber for this poll?

Maybe because he wanted to find out our opinions on Steinways?  I don't get the question.