Orchestra

[avetma]

Hello people,

I am high-school student and I started to write a piano concerto. I know much about certain instrument (color, tone-range and similar) but I am not sure in writing concerto with only piano in front of me. If you understand me. I am afraid that my orchestration will not be good or weird for some orchestra instruments.

So I wanted to ask you is there any program that gives better sound of orchestra than Finale (Sibelius, NWC etc.)? This programs uses my sound card and that produces awful sound of some instruments (violin, cello, faggot, horn...).
Some kind of personal orchestra?

Besides that, I would be grateful for any link on lessons about orchestration or anythink that might help me.

Just to improve orchestral part.

ps. I AM learning from other concertos orchestration too.

[pianistimo]

you sound very self-motivated.  i think theory teachers give private lessons - just like piano teachers.  why not go to a nearby college - or look up a piano or band teacher at a community college.  they are likely to direct you to some really good textbooks (or just go in the library and go for the orchestration book).  i don't know if there are some workbooks to go along - but i loved learning theory with a workbook to practice every step.  just reading a textbook doesn't always do it for you.  you have to practice each idea.

if there is no orchestration workbook, someone should come up with one.  it would be very helpful to get used to each instrument separately and THEN put them together.  having a cd or tape of the different techniques, learning how to write them, of each instrument would be cool, too.  i like your idea of analyzing concertos that are already written, too.  this should be in a regular textbook - and a few pages to show examples of how to get a certain texture. 

 

[avetma]

Thank you for your answer!

First, I dont really have time to take some hours at private teacher.
I know I sound self-motivaded. Because I am.

I wondered is there any discussion/book about orchestra parts. If someone here is interested; we could start to analise some other works? But I doubt that anyone is interested.

It seems that I will need to take a chanse on my intuition

[quantum]

This book will proabaly be good for you.  It's laid out to be a reference, as well as a text book.  All instruments are clearly categorized, all you do is look up your instrument: it gives pictures, range for professional, highschool, elementary, and excerpts of common and unorthodox scoring, as well as appropriate notation techniques for conductors score and parts.  It also contains information on obscure insturments.  I have this and I highly recommend it. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0534251870/qid=1136559941/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-8224802-4308601?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

[pianistimo]

yes!  having a reference book like that is really great!

and, there's some free stuff on line here:

www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory42.htm   

it's been so long since i took orchestration, i don't even remember all the clefs.  was trying to relearn them a month or so ago - but forgot what i wrote about 'secrets to learning clefs.'  it's on one of these threads around here. 

you know when you hear a great orchestration.  rimsky-korsakov seemed to be one of the greats - so you might google him and see if there are any excerpts of his book on-line.  this stuff must be SO much fun when you get really fast at it.  just like orchestration for movies.  john williams must be the one to look up for that!  and, a few others. 

also, i vaguely remember seeing a program that played the london symphony orchestra instead of midi sounds.  it's probably $1000. or something - but, i'd go to a school where they have something available to you for free.  don't know what west chester university is coming up with for theory classes - but they have a BRAND NEW music building - with all steinways (i know i keep saying this) - so maybe they'll have some up-dated technology, too.  i know they offer laptops to students and have quite a synthesizer lab.   have to look up when this is all available.  if you are a motivated student - you should just go for it.  it takes an awfully long time to write it all out by hand - i would think. 

say, i know what you could do -  take a portion of your concerto and go to a store that has some of the technology you are interested in and ask to try it out.  then, get a print out of your work so far.  then, you can use that to show for your college entrance.  who knows.  if you have good grades - you could start applying for grants and scholarships.

[avetma]

yes!  having a reference book like that is really great!

and, there's some free stuff on line here:

www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory42.htm   

it's been so long since i took orchestration, i don't even remember all the clefs.  was trying to relearn them a month or so ago - but forgot what i wrote about 'secrets to learning clefs.'  it's on one of these threads around here. 

you know when you hear a great orchestration.  rimsky-korsakov seemed to be one of the greats - so you might google him and see if there are any excerpts of his book on-line.  this stuff must be SO much fun when you get really fast at it.  just like orchestration for movies.  john williams must be the one to look up for that!  and, a few others. 

also, i vaguely remember seeing a program that played the london symphony orchestra instead of midi sounds.  it's probably $1000. or something - but, i'd go to a school where they have something available to you for free.  don't know what west chester university is coming up with for theory classes - but they have a BRAND NEW music building - with all steinways (i know i keep saying this) - so maybe they'll have some up-dated technology, too.  i know they offer laptops to students and have quite a synthesizer lab.   have to look up when this is all available.  if you are a motivated student - you should just go for it.  it takes an awfully long time to write it all out by hand - i would think. 

say, i know what you could do -  take a portion of your concerto and go to a store that has some of the technology you are interested in and ask to try it out.  then, get a print out of your work so far.  then, you can use that to show for your college entrance.  who knows.  if you have good grades - you could start applying for grants and scholarships.

Wow, what a post!
I am really grateful!

I dont want to rush anywhere but I think that this might be something new in my school. I'll try to play it for year or two with orchestra. Ofcourse - first I am going to finish it.
I am seriously looking forward for every new day.

Oh my god, I dont know what to say about that 'London orchestra'! That is exactly what I am looking for! But... I quite dont have $1000 in my pocket

I want to write it all by hand now. I would use that programs only to check some special parts.

Thank you million times for this online free book!!!

Greetings,
Ante

[Dazzer]

All programs use MIDI so you're stuck.

this is what you might be looking for as well
https://www.garritan.com/

the alternative is Sibelius Kontakt Player. Slightly cheaper.

[pianistimo]

very cool.  how much?

[Bob]

I think pianistismo is talking about the Vienna Symphony orchestra stuff.  I think that's the name.  It's at least $1,000.  Probably more like 5K.  Yeah.  Ouch.

https://www.ilio.com/vienna/  Yeah, 5K...

Once you have it all, you have to learn how to use it so it ends up sounding like a real instrument.

Beyond the MIDI stuff, you could find a real orchestra to play it.  A college one. 

It sounds like you're in school.  Have your school orchestra play it.  Then rewrite, rewrite, rewrite.

[avetma]

I think pianistismo is talking about the Vienna Symphony orchestra stuff.  I think that's the name.  It's at least $1,000.  Probably more like 5K.  Yeah.  Ouch.

https://www.ilio.com/vienna/  Yeah, 5K...

Once you have it all, you have to learn how to use it so it ends up sounding like a real instrument.

Beyond the MIDI stuff, you could find a real orchestra to play it.  A college one. 

It sounds like you're in school.  Have your school orchestra play it.  Then rewrite, rewrite, rewrite.

OMG! $$$

I am going to surprise my teachers about this. And if I try to ask school orchestra to play it - whole school will know what is all about.

I am looking this garritan and it seems to be nice...

[pianistimo]

actually, i just found the item in the mag 'electronic musician.'  it's called 'virtuosoworks' notion 1. 0.6 (win) and doesn't cost as much as i thought.  it's $599. list.  $399. academic price and $299. competitive upgrade (whatever that is)

 pros:  elegant and clean user interface. exceptional sound. high degree of espressive control over tempo and instrumental sound.  very little or no tweaking needed for high-quality sound and score appearance.

cons:  no support for advanced features.  (including lyrics, reading and writing midi files, importing and exporting  graphics, and web posting of scores).  some instruments are not yuet supported by the sample library.  not all notation symbols supported in sample library.

DESCRIPTION OF PRODUCT:

"VirtuosoWorks Notion, a new notation and orchestral performance program for Windows, is the brainchild of renowned composer and programmer Dr. Jack Jarrett, a former head of the Composition Department at Berklee College of Music and a longtime conductor of orchestral music...this time around, his goal was to develop software that would give musicians a 'user-friendly, notation-based music writing interface combined with the auditory aid of full-fidelity orchestral playback.  given his many years of experience, jarrett has clear ideas about what a notation and performance program should do."

it arrives with 3 cd's with a compact manual, a handy cardboard quick reference guide, information about registration that gives you access to Notion's tech support, and a small USB smart key for copy protection.  installation is smooth (about 5 minutes).  you plug in the small smart key for a brief hardward install, and then reboot your computer.  after launching the program, it's easy to create a score.  after you complete the score setup, you'll see a large score area to the right and a sidebar area to the left.  the sidebar provides access to four menus labeled tools, entries, expressions, and properties. 

if you want more info.  i'll type it later.  probably on the site www.notionmusic.com . 'payback is in the playback' is what it says!  i kind of want this.