Is it just me, or can NOBODY play...

[steve jones]

... the double forte passage at the beginning of Appassionata Mvt 1?

I have over ten recordings of this movement, but it seems that no one gets the rhythm right with this passage. They either suddenly up the tempo, resulting in the 'feel' of the syncopation being lost, or just play lose it all together.

Tell you what got me thinking about this. I was watching that Beethoven Master Class vid with Lang Lang, and he was playing it wrong until instructed. Suddenly it sound right (on correction) and its probably the first time Iv heard it done properly!

Tell me, why is it that no one seems to be able to do this? Sure it must sound as horrid to them as it does to me? What gives?

[mwarner1]

It's definitely an interpretational thing. If you want to hear it played "as written" rhythmically, check out Robert Casadesus on Sony Classics (I think). Kempff (mono cycle) is close, as is Gieseking.

My favorite recordings of this piece are by Richter, Gilels, and Solomon -- all three of them do seem to take some liberties at these passages though. Richter owns the Appassionata.

[I Love Xenakis]

Listen to the Serkin.

[gorbee natcase]

We are only interpiting music.... maybe we get carried away with our own interpretation that we are not listening to our selves. Even the greatest of pianists are still learning?

[mikey6]

I don't exactly understand - the semiquaver passgage in the right hand after the' fate motif'? There is a rit leading up to it and then it's in tempo so a sudden speed change is what he wants.  and the syncopation is where?
Sorry, just a bit confused.

[steve jones]

I dont know, maybe I am also getting confused? 

But I can say that I am generally turned off by most pianists interpretation of this passage.  Getting the tempo and rhythm right seems to be paramount to the effectiveness of these phrases, yet it seems so many lose it completely.

Here are a couple of samples, hopefully they will demonstrate my point far better than I can articulate it in words.

https://s48.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=30IQO5DFJMK4F0LWDMA8GELWWV

PS. I shall certainly check out those recordings you mentioned, thanks!

[maxy]

... the double forte passage at the beginning of Appassionata Mvt 1?

I have over ten recordings of this movement, but it seems that no one gets the rhythm right with this passage. They either suddenly up the tempo, resulting in the 'feel' of the syncopation being lost, or just play lose it all together.

Tell you what got me thinking about this. I was watching that Beethoven Master Class vid with Lang Lang, and he was playing it wrong until instructed. Suddenly it sound right (on correction) and its probably the first time Iv heard it done properly!

Tell me, why is it that no one seems to be able to do this? Sure it must sound as horrid to them as it does to me? What gives?

Is that the vid with Barenboim?  If it is, well check on Barenboim playing the op 57.   Many people can play the piece.  It's all about deciding how they want it to sound. 

[steve jones]

Yep, thats the one. I think the instruction he gave to Lang Lang was excellent. If I ever reach a level where my technique is such, the I would love to have that kind of tuition.

But just to clarify, I wasnt necessarily saying that no one can play Op57 (that would be a mightly bold statement!). Just that I hear so  many good performances (imo) spoiled by the mistreatment of this passage.


Mikey6,

Btw, when I spoke of syncopation, I was refering to the offbeat accent on the FF chords. This isnt written to my knowledge, and I guess if a very subjective thing. But I hear the accent coming on the offbeat (the RH). May people just hammer the chords out and this syncopation is lost (effectively destroying the rhythm). Mess with the tempo to, and it loses it completely.

If I could play this piece I would love to demostrate! But for now, its all in my head (my fingers havent caught up yet!).

[superstition2]

You know, either rhythm can probably be pleasing. Frankly, I liked the first "bad" one better, probably because it was played more naturally vs. the mechanical way the "good" one was played.

Can you put up another file with a less mechanical performance, preferably without speak-singing?

[steve jones]

Here are a couple of others:

https://s55.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1K0WULGVP1QTH3OCGI5ESBVBX0

Kopp isnt too bad as I can still get the sense of rhythm from his performance. But I dont like the way he pauses for a moment at the end of each FF phrase. I dont necessarily want it robotic, but the rhythm here is so important to me that to mess with it ruins the whole music.

I have no clue what Gould was thinking with this recording. The whole thing is played at a snails pace which destroys it for me. But then again, I here Gould hates this piece so maybe that was he way of expressive that?

Finally, Van Gennip doesnt do it well imo. Again, it just sounds like a bunch of hammered out chords!

What I liked about Lang Lang was that he played it this way to begin with, but on correction he played it just right. The voice you can here is Barenboim couching him in the background. Im no expert, but he seems to know his interpretation with this piece very well as the advice he gives LL is all golden in my book.

[mikey6]

OK! I was thinking of the part before.  I've heard so many recordings of the 'bad' one that i'm used to it.  I play it with a slight hesitaion although not as much as that one.

Mikey6,

Btw, when I spoke of syncopation, I was refering to the offbeat accent on the FF chords. This isnt written to my knowledge, and I guess if a very subjective thing. But I hear the accent coming on the offbeat (the RH). May people just hammer the chords out and this syncopation is lost (effectively destroying the rhythm). Mess with the tempo to, and it loses it completely.

ok but syncopation can't exist without a firm downbeat for it to bounce off of.  I actually hear the LH chord as the strongest.
I have a live performance of Richter playing it - you'd love it! his rhythm is totally wacked.

[steve jones]

"ok but syncopation can't exist without a firm downbeat for it to bounce off of"

That may be why I so rarely hear it during this passage

Seriously though, you get what Im saying, right?

Imagine the * is the soft beat, the ; is a bar line and the # is the accent:


1.  *#*#*# ; *#*#*# ;                (how I like it)

2.   ## ## ## ; ## ## ##          (how most seem to play it)


Not exactly the idea way to present my idea, but you should be able to get what I mean!

[lostinidlewonder]

I find that with Beethoven we always want to show CONTRAST in sounds. Because he wrote for the piano, a keyboard instrument which finally could control loud and soft sounds, short and long sounds.

His compositions for piano always aims to place emphasis on contrast of sounds. So always ask, what is longer in sound, what is shorter, what is louder and what is softer.

For this passage in discussion I think that there is often misinterpretation. People think it has to be much faster than it normally should. Sure if it is fast and loud that is a quite a contrast to what was heard previously, but I think also if you increase the speed you reduce the observation time of these contrasting sounds. With increased tempo it doesn't sound as majestic as Beethoven's music should sound, big and bold. Not Big and a blur of speed. I think some pianists are so excited about the string of notes from bar 14-15 that it carries over to 17, we have to have some restraint, control don't let the music play us.

People commit more tempo atrocities in the 3rd movement of the Appassionata in my opinion. Allegro MA NON TROPPO. Yet so many ingore it and plays at lightning tempo.

[steve jones]

Indeed. And I'd bet if you start to fast you are in deep trouble when the presto arrives!

Also, I agree with your other comments totally. Imo, the contrast in volume, texture and timbre is so huge that without consistency in the timing you can completely lose what is going on.

But then again, I know precisely jack all about this music! Im just going on what my lug holes tell me.

[quantum]

People commit more tempo atrocities in the 3rd movement of the Appassionata in my opinion. Allegro MA NON TROPPO. Yet so many ingore it and plays at lightning tempo.

I absolutly agree!!!  Some people actually forget there is musical content in the third movement, and just go for speed. 

[zheer]

... the double forte passage at the beginning of Appassionata Mvt 1?

I have over ten recordings of this movement, but it seems that no one gets the rhythm right with this passage. They either suddenly up the tempo, resulting in the 'feel' of the syncopation being lost, or just play lose it all together.

  I had to find out what the fuss was about, and i is conclude that its necessary to count in quavers, thats all you need to do to play these passages correctly, i guess.

[steve jones]

Lol, thanks for the insight Zheer. I feel enlightened... and kind of fuzzy! Weird, aye? 

[brewtality]

People commit more tempo atrocities in the 3rd movement of the Appassionata in my opinion. Allegro MA NON TROPPO. Yet so many ingore it and plays at lightning tempo.

This depends on a few things: whether you can play fast AND still bring out interesting details. Whether the music still breathes and obviously what you mean by "allegro". I have heard many yawn-inducing performances where the pianist believes that simply by not playing fast they are doing justice to the score. This is wrong imo. I personally like this played in around sub 4'35" w/o repeat. If you can play fast while still giving space to the music, increasing and decreasing the tension and highlighting details, then I think you are not committing any atrocities.

[lostinidlewonder]

But Beethoven is clear, ma non troppo, but not too fast.

[jehangircama]

No I still prefer it quick. it sounds much more 'appasionata' for me. especially the presto. it needs to be really agitated for my interpretation, like the climax of such a piece should be.

[steve jones]

I like to hear a BIG tempo contrast at the presto section. Always reminds me of a steam train, suddenly gone out of control speeding towards a big crash!

If I get that feeling, then I know the pianist is doing it right 

[brewtality]

I like to hear a BIG tempo contrast at the presto section. Always reminds me of a steam train, suddenly gone out of control speeding towards a big crash!

If I get that feeling, then I know the pianist is doing it right 

I prefer to hear the change come at the second time bar.

This piece just begs to be played fast, and allegro ma non troppo doesn't give us an indication of what exactly is 'too fast", this is the job of the interpreter. If you can still control the music reasonably well, then I don't think you are playing too fast.