some questions for the biblical scholars

[Tash]

i finally found my bible last night and am taking advantage of my extreme boredom and am reading it- purely because i hate trying to make a judgement on something when i have no idea what it's really based on.

so into genesis, it's interesting, cos half of it makes complete sense, and then there's some really random thing! so firstly, in ch1:26 or somewhere around there when god's making humans- he says 'they will be like us'- who is 'us?? does that suggest there are more gods out there that don't have anything to do with us?

secondly, what was wrong with cain's offering of part of his harvest, compared to abel's slaughtered lamb?

ummm i think there was a thirsd thing but i can't remember now...i feel kinda bad, that everything kid of screwed up for god and we all became evil- reminds me of frankenstein when the monster went crazy

another interesting thing- it is mentioned that humans and animals are not equal and if they kill humans then they should die- in which case what do the followers of the bible think of this inequality and today's efforts to save the animals and make them equal and blah?

[Floristan]

Jeez, you are bored!  

[pianistimo]

dear tash,

as i've said, i'm not a scholar, but i read the bible a lot.  as i understand it, God the Father, and God the Son are two distinct yet intertwined beings.  not sexually, as some have joked, but bonded in some unique way by the Holy Spirit.  there's a place in the bible that says 'and the word became flesh' or something like that...so we know that He previously existed and when He spoke the word - the world came into being.

how i know the nature is not sexual - is that there are other places that say when we are changed 'to be like Him' there will neither be male or female - yet another place says 'pleasures forever more...' so that must be a higher form of pleasure spoken of.  i have no idea what this could be - but trust that it is so.

the Gospel according to john says "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God.  all things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.  In Him was light, and the life was the light of men."

as far as animals attacking others, i believe that refers to people who allow their animals or pets to injure another person willfully.  as in a bull goring  a person.  and, animal sacrifices - until Christ died for our sins - that was the old way of atoning for sin.  God used it as an analogy for how serious sin is to Him. many people do not understand this concept - and i don't proclaim to either because i am quite the animal lover.  it seems harsh to us today - but back then, people subsisted off the land and were going to kill animals for subsistence whether they used them for offerrings or not.

[pianistimo]

just looking into cain's offerring.  i believe that jude 1:10-11  shows that cain didn't really see the significance of a sacrifice and was just doing 'outward show.'  i sam 16:7 says that God can see into people's minds and divide the intention of their heart.  perhaps he didn't give the sacrifice in a heartfelt manner like his brother and then ended up being jealous when his brother's sacrifice was more acceptable to God (don't think the difference was meat and/or veggies) although abel's would have covered his sins and perhaps there is some kind of significance there?  perhaps God was testing cain - jealousy vs. peace of mind "if you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? and if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door, and its desire is for you, but you must master it."  God told him this BEFORE he went ahead and killed abel.  so God obviously made a point (as parents do) that they don't favor one child over the other - but he wanted him to be encouraged if he did well. 

you can kind of see cain's attitude even after the murder of his brother.  he was jealous because his brother was righteous...and perhaps he didn't have regard for God in the same way from the beginning.  i don't know the whole story, but that's how i interpret it.

[pianistimo]

one last thing that i have come to understand (i think) is that God's law IS perfect no matter if we say it isn't or if it doesn't match our ideal.  seems harsh to us today - but the fact that Christ redeemed us from our sins and took away that sacrificial law is freeing and relieving to us because we don't have to obey the letter anymore - but rather the spirit.

yet, so as not to offend whomever you are with - you have to consider their culture and their ways.  if they clash with God's law - you modify your behavior to obey God and yet not pass judgement on them.  God is everyone's judge - so reading the bible doesn't make you a judger of other people.  just a little more astute as to what God has revealed to us about how the world was made FOR us and not AGAINST us.  he doesn't want us unhappy or disillusioned - yet he commands certain things of us in the New Testament. 

preaching the gospel as a witness is one item.  this is literally living as Christ did (as much as you are able) so that people see a witness and ask - where do you get your faith?  also, we are told to take care of the poor and the fatherless and the widow.  these things are extremely important to God because he does care about the weak (just as much as the strong, good looking, etc. etc).  also, he wants 'just weights' and for us to be fair and honest.  these things aren't terribly hard (as in the OT - sacrifices and codes) and they are much more reasonable to us today because we aren't into the desert life anyway.  can you imagine how hard it would be to stay clean back then?  maybe some of the cleansing rituals really DID keep them healthy and avoid disease.  today, we have a different situation.

[lagin]

Wow, pianistimo, I guess you covered it!  Hey Tash, good for you to actually study something before having an opinion on it!  So many people are like, "the Bible says this and that, but it means this and that," and I'm like, "Have you ever actually read it through? "  And they're like, "Um, that's not the point!" And change the subject.   Very good questions, too, btw.

[Dazzer]

more questions... of course very common ones.

1) Just WHO did cain marry?
2) If god could make adam out of dust, why did he bother going through the expense of creating eve through adam?

[lagin]

Well Cain would have had to marry one of his sisters as there was no choice back then.  There also was no law against it back then either.  God put that into place later, in the book of Exodus. 

And the answer to your second question is because He wanted too !  Maybe it's just because girls are extra specially wonderful, haha, just kidding.  Let's not start the battle of the sexes.

[prometheus]

Also, which creation story is the correct one? Genesis one or genesis two?

Well Cain would have had to marry one of his sisters as there was no choice back then

Actually, when God confronts Cain after he killed his brother and God sends him away he doesn't want to go because he is afraid other people will hurt him. So in this part of the story there are other people and they can't be children of Adem and Eve. Or can they?

God is just being unfair to Cain by prefering Abel over him for no reason. But God's law IS perfect no matter what, so we just accept this. God was right.


Lets face it, it all doesn't make any sense.

[brewtality]

Jeez, you are bored!  

Concurred.

[lagin]

Also, which creation story is the correct one? Genesis one or genesis two?

What do you mean?

[prometheus]

What do you mean?

The creation story is told twice. In chapter one and two. They contradict each other on several points. For example, in chapter one male and female are created at the same time. But in chapter two Eve is created as Adam's slave after Adam asks for a 'helper'.

[BoliverAllmon]

The creation story is told twice. In chapter one and two. They contradict each other on several points. For example, in chapter one male and female are created at the same time. But in chapter two Eve is created as Adam's slave after Adam asks for a 'helper'.

One is dealing with spirit side and the other the physical side.

[gruffalo]

Tash , if you want to start reading the bible i wouldnt recommend the Old testament to start with. this requires a greater understanding and its quite harsh and scary. i would start off with the New testament. thats what im doing.

[Dazzer]

Genesis 4:25 Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, "God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him."

Thus, there were no other children. Only cain and abel.

4:16 So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, [f] east of Eden.

Okay that sounds reasonable enough. A place suddenly sprouting out of nowhere.

4:17 Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.

So that would mean there's an extra woman. Since Adam/Eve did not conceive any girls, that would mean there were either
1) humans that was already created before adam and eve, meaning that they're not the only parents of the human race. This, of course, contradicts the Genesis.
2) a woman was created for Cain, after adam and eve. Again, they're not the only "parents" of the human race, because there's now an extra woman at the top of the tree.
3) humans were EXISTENT before adam and eve, and it was possible that Adam and Eve were but replicas or based on the humans before them.

Note that there's little mention of WHERE he met this wife, what her name is, or how they got together. He just grabbed her and had his way with her. Charming.

Another little point i've had pointed out to me as well, which i find it ironic with all the hoohah over cloning, is that Eve was created out of Adam's rib. Cloning?

[prometheus]

One is dealing with spirit side and the other the physical side.

Well, maybe. But this is just making assumptions.

Dazzer, the fact that Cain is afraid of other people when he is to enter the land of Nod and the fact that God things this is reasonable is much more powerful an indication that there must have been other people.

[Torp]

If god created everything, and everything was "good," where did evil come from?

Wouldn't that, by definition, make evil good?

Another one, when god says "let there be light," what was the source of that light?  I mean, he doesn't create the sun until the fourth day, so what was the original source of light?  And where is it now?  I also wonder about the project planning capabilities, if you have the power to create the sun, why not just create it first and save a day's work?  All seems odd to me.

[leahcim]

Another little point i've had pointed out to me as well, which i find it ironic with all the hoohah over cloning, is that Eve was created out of Adam's rib. Cloning?

Yeah, although I guess they'd answer that the hoohah is over non-Gods doing it.

Similary for dishonesty, something you might think was frowned upon but God's barely into book one.

God : "Hey adam, eat that apple and you're dead the same day"
Adam: "Really?"
God: "Yep, honest Gov, you can trust everything I say. It's in the bible after all so it must be true"
Adam: "Aha, Good point you got me  there"
<munch munch>
Adam: "Oooh, boobs, better stick this on Eve"
<blush>
800 years later [like yeah, that's likely, no holes there] he's still tapping his foot
Adam : "well?"
God: "No really, you're doomed pal, just you wait..."

[prometheus]

But the snake tells them the truth. Pretty strange.

[Tash]

the bible is crazy- i've gotten through genesis and exodus and am now like wth. the questions just keep piling up! and thus i decided to move to the new testament because it's shorter and i think it's more what i'm currently interested in.

and yes i am bored, but this was sparked out of learning about the development of christianity and islam in the medieval times, maybe i'll go read the qu'ran when i'm done with the bible

oh i remembered my other question- when are jacob and joseph etc meant to be living? like how many years before christ? and when was genesis actually written?

and new question- god seems to be looking out for the israelites, but what about the entire other population of the world? i feel they've been neglected and don't have the opportunity to learn about this particular god? why does the bible focus on egypt and the middle eastern area- what about everywhere else? what makes this area special?

[lagin]

So that would mean there's an extra woman. Since Adam/Eve did not conceive any girls, that would mean there were either
1) humans that was already created before adam and eve, meaning that they're not the only parents of the human race. This, of course, contradicts the Genesis.
2) a woman was created for Cain, after adam and eve. Again, they're not the only "parents" of the human race, because there's now an extra woman at the top of the tree.
3) humans were EXISTENT before adam and eve, and it was possible that Adam and Eve were but replicas or based on the humans before them.

Note that there's little mention of WHERE he met this wife, what her name is, or how they got together. He just grabbed her and had his way with her. Charming.

In the "olden days" girls were not often included in geneologies and family trees.  They were considered by men to be of secondary importance to guys.  This could explain that.  

[lagin]

They lived a few thousand before, but I'll let someone else answer more exactly, because I haven't studied the dates too much, but I'm thinking it was aournd 3 or 4 thousand.


Originally everyone did know about Him, since "everyone" started off very small .  But it's the same as now a days.  People just stopped passing it on.  So God choose the Israelites to be the ones to go and tell/show everyone and remind them that God still existed.  It started with Abraham I believe.  God found that one man who still worshiped him, blessed him with children, and it went from there.  His children told their children, ect.  And they got to be such a large number that they became a nation, the Israelites.  God wanted the other nations to listen and see these Israelites who were still walking with Him, and come to know Him too. 


Well America hadn't technically been discovered yet, so that rules out half the world.  Egypt and that area were also world powers back then, so most of the population of the world and most of the notable event would have happened in that location.  Also, if you consider that the garden of Eden was in that area, though no one knows for sure where since it's long destroyed now, then people were probably still working on "spreading out."

Sorry Tash, I'm not so good with the quote thingy so I just answered you like this.

[timothy42b]

I wish you luck with your quest.  Reading the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, is not an easy task, which is why so few do it. 

I'll give you a few clues which might help.  You must understand the Documentary Hypothesis and midrash, for starters, and also remember things were seen in the context of a developing agrarian society, and most of that context is missing to modern urban man. 

Yes, there are two creation stories, and resolving them into a physical creation and a spiritual creation is a type of dishonesty perpetrated by people called "apologists" to try and make a discrepancy go away.  There are many other examples in the OT (and some in the NT, though it is not as obvious) where the story repeats in a conflicting manner.  The reason is simple.  The redactors collected the stories from more than one source.  They knew there were problems.  They considered it intellectually dishonest to collapse the stories into one version, for fear of losing something that might be important to God (or Yahweh or Elohim, etc., depending on the source).  So they included all the versions assuming we would understand.  We don't, and largely attempt to claim there is only one story, because that would mean admitting the uncertainty and error, and then it couldn't all be literal and inerrant.

To cut to the chase:  The human conception of the nature of God changed over time.  What the early Jews believed is vastly different from what the early Christians believed which is vastly different from what modern Christians believe.  The Bible tracks part of that history and you cannot expect it to be consistent from end to end.  Our modern version may be more correct - we hope we are making progress.

Good luck. 

[prometheus]

and new question- god seems to be looking out for the israelites, but what about the entire other population of the world? i feel they've been neglected and don't have the opportunity to learn about this particular god? why does the bible focus on egypt and the middle eastern area- what about everywhere else? what makes this area special?

Who knows. The bible was written by Israelites. How could they know what their God did in China or South America? Plus, those people have their own Gods. Why would they need the God of the Israelites? Or, why didn't Viracocha help the Israelites? Why did Zeus never visit Japan? Why doesn't Thor/Donar help out the Pope every now and then?

[pianistimo]

as i understand it, the early jews were very little different than the early christians.  Jesus Christ was jewish, and yet, did not flaunt the fact, but died so that 'all' could  live.  he observed the law and said 'not one jot or title shall pass from the law till all is fulfilled.'  yet He himself is the only person who has ever fulfilled all the law.  He was extremely close to His Father and prayed more than we do.  we are tempted by so many things in the world - so He knew we would need His atonement for our sins.

the two accounts of the book of Genesis do not contradict each other, do they?  God just goes into more detail.  Now, if He wanted to, he could have made more people - but there is somewhere in the NT that reminds us that ALL people have come from Adam and Eve - so that noone would become racist in their views.  our blood is the same, technically, though we have variations on it.  I Cor. 15:45 says "the first man, Adam, became a living soul."  the last adam became a life-giving spirit.  however, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual...  there's another scripture that says something about eve being 'the mother of all.'  (will look for it)

anyway, i agree with lagin about cain going off with his sister.  just because he went to the LAND of nod (which he named or God named for him) and asked to have protection, doesn't mean that he was afraid for many years (until his mother eve and father adam had more children).  also, the angels could easily do him in, if God had  requested them to ("WHOEVER finds me will kill me).  they have appeared as 'men' many times in the OT - and usually carry out the will of God. anyway, he STARTEd a city when he gave birth to Enoch "and he gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son."

the second chapter of Genesis goes into MORE DETAIL - about the creation of 'man.'  adam and eve were created on the sixth day, but their understanding of God was revealed on the 7th.  they were taught that they were to cultivate the garden of eden, that they shouldn't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (decide for themselves what is good and evil - thus negating God's commands), and that the woman was to 'help' the man and that they had dominion over the creation and animals.

God did cause death to enter the world the DAY that they took from the tree of good and evil.  deu. 4:19 says "beware, lest you lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and te moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them, those which the lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven."  we are also told not to make 'graven images' of His creation and change the idea of God for our children.  perhaps this is why God WAS the light at creation.  and, His glory will also be the light of His new kingdom rev. 21:23 "and the city has no need of the sun or the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb."

rev. 22:5 "and there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine them; adn they shall reign forever and ever."  that's what adam and eve were created for - to be one - together - serving each other and God.  it sounds like women are not created to be treated equally - but there are many passages where God refers to women as the 'weaker vessel' and to be cared for and not just taken for granted.  because eve was 'bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh' to adam - perhaps it cemeted the idea that he was to take care of her as he would take care of himself.  God often uses analogies to show us things (ie. children look like us!)

if we walk in light (which is not the sun, but good deeds) we will be subject to our husbands, as to the Lord.  "the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Saviour of the body."  if He is an example - he would go to the point of sacrificing himself for her.  and visa-versa - when people truly love each other.  eph. 5:25 says, "husbands, love you wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her."..."so husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies.  He who loves his own wife, loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes it and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church.

[leahcim]

Tash , if you want to start reading the bible i wouldnt recommend the Old testament to start with. this requires a greater understanding and its quite harsh and scary. i would start off with the New testament. thats what im doing.

Which one do think she's read?

https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5464505634137914176

[Tash]

??

ok new question- for those who are quite religious, how literally do you take the stories in the bible? like the creation- do you think that's EXACTLY what happened, or could possibly be a result of people passing down the story like chinese whispers and it getting slightly manipulated, and also as a result of the fact that at that time people didn't know how the world began so they just sort of formed an explanation? that's not to say that god didn't create the earth, but created it in the sort of scientific way, and then the story got simplified into what's in the bible?

[pianistimo]

if God did not tell us where we came from, what our purpose is, and where we are going - we would have an excuse to claim ignorance.  but, He has told us our purpose, given us His laws, and told us what will happen if we do right and wrong.  His parenting is perfect - compared to ours.  as the video showed - parents often react instead of being proactive.  God is always proactive - He tells us BEFORE anything happens - and we know exactly what to expect if we do or don't listen.  suprisingly, people haven't changed much since bible times (as we can see).  people still do whatever they feel like - and reap the rewards.  but, if you 'test' God's righteousness - you try doing what He recommends and see if it brings blessings into your life.

demons don't bring anything - as this woman was sadly trying to say.  i have a battle every day for my children's minds.  it isn't humorous to me.  dealing with attitudes 'i don't have to.  i don't want to.  therefore, i won't.'  of course, i remember having the same ones - so i can appreciate my parents long lasting patience and don't think that 'flying off the handle' (broomstick?) has ever gotten me anywhere as parent.  usually it's in the quiet moments where you do something WITH your children that's positive.  the computer has been a detriment in my home because it is almost as if we are scheduling our lives around the computer instead of each other.  also, music, art, almost anything can be used for good or evil.  as long as my children are in my home - they have to abide by certain rules here.  when they leave - they are their own person to do whatever they decide as adults.  though i don't agree with the woman's parenting ideas - i do agree with her right to be angry, to be the ' mother' and not let her daughters or children decide what rules will be in her home, and not to be fearful of other ' authorities.'  God gives parents the right - not the government - to raise their children.  of course, abuse is totally wrong - but more OFTEN children abuse their parents. 

in our age - the biblical verses about 'children ruling over their parents' and not having respect is more an issue that TV programs should deal with.  yet, we see the opposite - the glorification of independent thinking teenagers that do what they want.  sass back.  say stuff about their parents that is really disrespectful, and not listen to curfews or rules.  col. 3:20-21 says it goes both ways "children, be obedient to your  parents in all things, for this is well-pleasing to the Lord.  Fathers, do not exasperate your children, that they may not lose heart."

imo, God gives us the Bible as a reference for many things in our lives.  we may not refer to Genesis as often as other books, but it is still a reference.  we don't live as long of lives, are not tied to agriculture as much as then, and do not use animals in the same way - but much worse things seem to happen to animals today.  an animal with a lifetime of neglect is much worse.  how sad God must feel - not just for the animals but for humans who are neglected.  so many children that are not fed and cared for properly, and sometimes parents who are terribly at fault for not preparing, for not caring, and for not being proactive in helping them lead successful lives.  if God is our example, we cannot fail - even if we mess up.  God leads us out of problems as He led the ancient israelites out of egypt.  if we pray for guidance and also read the bible - sometimes we are directed to exactly the type of spiritual guidance we need at the point in time.  if we choose to follow it - we cannot fail.  that's why God is a perfect parent.  he wants us all to succeed.

[timothy42b]

the two accounts of the book of Genesis do not contradict each other, do they?  God just goes into more detail. 

<snip>

Well, yes and no.  The two accounts do contradict each other and cannot be reconciled.  It is a matter not of detail but of order, of significance, and of theology. 

And yet, you are right in one sense.  It is one story, the same story.  Just told from two viewpoints that can't be resolved.  And no, it is clearly not intended to be a physical creation and then a spiritual creation.  They are both the same creation story.  I can't remember which sources were involved and I don't have any references handy.  At a guess I would say the E and P, because of the reference to God as plural (Elohim) and the ritualist emphasis (Priestly source.) 

Adam is not a person, by the way.  The name means mankind, it is a generic term.  Judaic scholars do not understand these stories to be literally about a person named Adam, or Job, etc.  The meaning is much richer and more profound than that.

One thing (of many) to remember in understanding the OT is the fierce struggle between the Northern and Southern kingdoms (Israel and Judah) and that whoever was in power at the time had to cast the other in a bad light by showing them either disobedient to God or with mistaken theology.  Job vs Proverbs, e.g., completely opposite understandings of the relationship between God and reward.   

[stevie]

i resent god for making me feel guilty that i am so much more perfect than him.

BUT, i also think tash is 'kewl', i just talked to her in a random dream and it was fun, really fun...perhaps too fun....

[Tash]

randomly...stevie i'm just a fun kinda gal sometimes!


ok i think my questions about the bible have been answered for now, i skimmed through the new testament and got excited when agrippa was mentioned (yay to the julio-claudian emporers!!) and basically i feel like i have some kind of knowledge to base my thoughts on (and re-remembered what we learnt at school) so thanks all for the lovely info, i might read the whole thing properly one day, but for now have 2 other books waiting in line (no offence to the bible) so want to read them before uni starts woo!it's all good