The future of music notation

[musicrebel4u]

In regards to what you are saying, doesn't the grand staff represent both, in that time is represented linearly, and pitch is represented vertically so that in a sense we do see both aspects at once? 

You and I may see both aspects at once, but beginners wondering around the bunch of lines with circles and bunch of similar looking keys with no visual connection to one another.

[johnk]

Music Rebel, when you referred to the "Golden Section" did you mean something to do with the mathematical ratio?
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

[keypeg]

You and I may see both aspects at once, but beginners wondering around the bunch of lines with circles and bunch of similar looking keys with no visual connection to one another.

But it DOES have both aspects.  However, reading anything begins that way.  I can remember clearly learning to write, and not being able to differentiate between:  p q d b or which line any of the letters went on.  It is something that is taught and learned over time.  Having learned 6 languages and mastered 4 alphabets, it is now a piece of cake, and striving towardthe same has not only been a pleasure, but it has helped me to grow in multiple ways.  It makes me wonder: You have written that in your native Russia music was learned thoroughly in multiple ways.  Is that not more complete?  Does the music not enter the person more, for more mastery?  Is instant success of playing a piece better?  You see, my goal is not to achieve the playing of a piece.  My goal is to enter the world of music with eventual skill and deep knowledge that does not skim the surface.  If your system allows a student to enter that world through other means, then my hat's off to you.

But back to the original question.  You have invented this system to help a young person learn to read music, and at the moment that music is standing on its side.  Have you designed a transitional step in which the young learner will be able to read traditional music, which is angled 90 degrees differently?

[musicrebel4u]

Music Rebel, when you referred to the "Golden Section" did you mean something to do with the mathematical ratio?
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

No, John. 'Golden Section' in music is a moment of real time when music is sounding. We managed to make this moment visible for eye focus of player and created ways of calculation:  how many pitches had been decoded right and how much delay in time it takes for beginner to grasp this section using coordination.

[musicrebel4u]

But it DOES have both aspects.  However, reading anything begins that way.  I can remember clearly learning to write, and not being able to differentiate between:  p q d b or which line any of the letters went on.  It is something that is taught and learned over time.  Having learned 6 languages and mastered 4 alphabets, it is now a piece of cake, and striving towardthe same has not only been a pleasure, but it has helped me to grow in multiple ways.  It makes me wonder: You have written that in your native Russia music was learned thoroughly in multiple ways.  Is that not more complete?  Does the music not enter the person more, for more mastery?  Is instant success of playing a piece better?  You see, my goal is not to achieve the playing of a piece.  My goal is to enter the world of music with eventual skill and deep knowledge that does not skim the surface.  If your system allows a student to enter that world through other means, then my hat's off to you.

But back to the original question.  You have invented this system to help a young person learn to read music, and at the moment that music is standing on its side.  Have you designed a transitional step in which the young learner will be able to read traditional music, which is angled 90 degrees differently?

Please, watch the video even with no sounds. There are all the answers to your questions.

[keypeg]

Please, watch the video even with no sounds. There are all the answers to your questions.

I have just done so.
My two questions were: 1. In regards to the extensive training you described in your native Russia, is that not more complete than what you are proposing?  Which is more satisfactory for those who are capable of learning the complete way.  2. Is a transition made toward a traditional horizontal staff?

I did not see an answer to either of these two questions in the demo.  However the demo is for the purpose of learning the "time" aspect of note reading.

I should identify myself as a former teacher with training in learning disabilities (have I already?), which can involve alternate approaches, and using alternate senses to the usual sense of vision and hearing.  Music is attractive in particular because it involves the use of the whole body, and the combination of touch and hearing, instead of necessarily vision and hearing, for those who are weak in the visual, or audio-visual area.

Ok, I played the demo and it was sort of fun.  A first comment - is there a control of speed in the program?  It looks like it is designed for a basic, older computer, which is good - but I have a very fast computer so those notes zipped by at a speed you wouldn't believe.  They would not "zip by" on an older computer.  That should be controllable.

It was very strong in creating note-value recognition.  All the half notes went into the half note basket, and it creates a very strong recognition of half notes, etc., as separate entities.  It sticks to the brain.  Green apples are earned with one kind of note value, red apples are earned with another kind of note, so again, my mind is really impregnated by the character of those symbols.  They become old friends.

I don't know whether I would end up associating timing with the notes.  The half note travelled to the basket that was far away, and the eighth note travelled to a basket that was closer by, like different addresses, distances, not necessarily time.  I'm trying to see it like a child or novice.  Because I knew the purpose was timing, I counted the lines it went through, so I got a sense of "fourness" for the half note (four eighth notes).  I don't know whether subliminaly I would have absorbed a sense of timing through the exercise.

From what I experienced, the different types of note values/symbols became clear, they lived at different addresses, and the empty note (half note) travelled a greater distance and had to cross more lines than the black note with the flag.  I'm sure that there was a background sound giving a tempo beat, so it would also reinforce tempo through sound.

Not a bad tool for recognizing those notes and associating them with note values, though I imagine there are all kinds of games that could accomplish the same thing.

What bothered me is that it is totally visual, there is nothing tactile, no body use, no clapping, stomping, marching, tapping, swaying.  It would have to be part of a larger picture, and not the whole picture, wouldn't it?

[musicrebel4u]

Again. Please, answer only one question:
did you watch this video from very beginning to very end?
Let's deal with one question at a time, OK?

[keypeg]

Musicrebel4u

Ah, I understand - I downloaded the DEMO - I think you invited people to do so in the other thread. 

[keypeg]

Yes, I see now, and my question is answered.  Thank you.

[musicrebel4u]

Musicrebel4u

Ah, I understand - I downloaded the DEMO - I think you invited people to do so in the other thread. 

Later on I will show other demos and explain how each program works and how students and teachers could benefit from it.

[johnk]

No, John. 'Golden Section' in music is a moment of real time when music is sounding. We managed to make this moment visible for eye focus of player and created ways of calculation:  how many pitches had been decoded right and how much delay in time it takes for beginner to grasp this section using coordination.

So does it refers to the yellow line which is the current notes to be played? Is "Golden Section" your own term, or a term which already existed? I would advise not using new terms unless you define their meaning.

All your videos show the kids playing from memory, without any music. To really prove how it helps them learn to read, could you show us a child at a later stage sight reading from sheet music? As i mentioned before, my sister played all of Sleeping Beauty waltz which I taught her by rote, both hands without ever having a proper piano lesson. So what i am saying is that a student playing a piece in itself does not prove they became a good reader.

If you look at my own YouTube videos, I am actually reading the Express Stave music. Of course I practiced it a lot. But I have not memorised the pieces. If you take the music away, i cannot continue. https://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=eX6Ggsmzv3I

Here is an excerpt of the latest piece I am practicing, in TN and ES.

Notice how in TN you might hesitate over the double sharps and legerlines. And you might miss where accidentals refer to notes later in the bar.

Other points:

Clef similarity - D is always the centreline, white notehead.
Octave similarity - all octaves of a note look the same, rather than a line and a space.
Chord shape and intervals - ES has identical shapes and sizes to TN. No other alternative notation does this.

[musicrebel4u]

John,
I just placed some links in my topic.

How I teach chords:

How they self-develop abilities to pick chords for different melodies:

How I teach sight-reading:

How we learn to transpose:

Coordination development in reading on elementary presentation:

[johnk]

Thankyou. These are interesting.

I think the problems with using your system is expense and logistics.

At the music school where I teach, we would have to add computers to 5 rooms with keyboards. Then all the students would have to purchase the software for home practice.

But I have already tried the vertical staff idea. One little student has always seemed a bit slow and muddled with associating the top stave with the right and the bottom with the left. Last lesson i turned the book on its side and she played more easily. And she didnt try to twist her head around like an adult might do. I then held the book at an angle, gradually restoring the staff to horizontal. I think the idea would be useful for a number of other students for playing hands together pieces.

Cheers, john

[musicrebel4u]

Thankyou. These are interesting.

I think the problems with using your system is expense and logistics.

At the music school where I teach, we would have to add computers to 5 rooms with keyboards. Then all the students would have to purchase the software for home practice.

But I have already tried the vertical staff idea. One little student has always seemed a bit slow and muddled with associating the top stave with the right and the bottom with the left. Last lesson i turned the book on its side and she played more easily. And she didnt try to twist her head around like an adult might do. I then held the book at an angle, gradually restoring the staff to horizontal. I think the idea would be useful for a number of other students for playing hands together pieces.

Cheers, john

May I give you some advice, John?
Before I had a chance to find a programer, I didn't only turn music books sideways, but also I colored pre-last spaces (C-s of Second and Small octaves) with blue pencil. It helped my students to locate lines and spaces easier.

BTW, 'till 2008 we issued the system without this coloring, but during last 7 years of testing the system I found it very helpful. Due to the fact that we can check the results in exact numbers, coloring the spaces of the next octaves in blue drastically improved the results of learners in sight-readig.

[johnk]

If you teach the keys starting from C, then colouring the C spaces would help.

But I teach the keys in the units ABCDEFG, like they were historically defined. We have three such octaves within the grand staff. I call them bass, middle and treble; and each register goes from A to G.

My students dont see the keyboard as going from C to C.

If you look at my YouTube video and read the text about it, you may find this interesting. Most people are unaware of how the letternames were first used to define the pitches. Even musicologists! By the way, ABCDEFG came a century before ut re mi fa so la.

https://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=UuZfbZySEe8

[musicrebel4u]

If you teach the keys starting from C, then colouring the C spaces would help.

But I teach the keys in the units ABCDEFG, like they were historically defined. We have three such octaves within the grand staff. I call them bass, middle and treble; and each register goes from A to G.

My students dont see the keyboard as going from C to C.

If you look at my YouTube video and read the text about it, you may find this interesting. Most people are unaware of how the letternames were first used to define the pitches. Even musicologists! By the way, ABCDEFG came a century before ut re mi fa so la.

https://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=UuZfbZySEe8

Yes, I looked at your video!
As a musicologist have to say that letter names of music 'heksachords' (don't know how to write this word in English') came from anchient Greece.
Since then music education got 'tradition' of teaching music literacy from octave.
99,9% of modern educators (!!!) still start from keys (strings), 2 black keys, 3 black keys, Steps and Half Steps.

For more then 11 centuries! music education overlooked the simple but powerful fact, that music is no longer 1-voice language, that reading 20+ tracks of Grand Staff - this is the main challenge for learners and without ability to see and hear music notation in your mind generation after generation would stay musically illiterate and practically ... blind. That the world would divine into selected few prodigies and dark uneducated masses.

Here is a link to my short article about how Grand Staff was born.
https://www.musicstaff.com/lounge/article65.asp

[johnk]

Ancient Greek music theory used tetrachords (literally 4 strings), not hexachords (6 strings). And as far as I know, they did not use letternames A to G. The notes were called by technical names such as "lichanos hypaton' meaning index finger of the highest tetrachord.

The earliest known document to define note pitches as we know them today was Enchiriades Musices in 935, and it defined ABCDEFG on the stretched string or monochord.

Guido of Arezzo came a century later. He did not change the letternames to solfa names. He added the solfa names to the letters. And they were relative. Doh could be C, F or G, because there are major 3rds from each of these these notes in the scale of ABCDEFG. This is where hexachords came in. He only used 6 syllables. He still used the 7 letternames, for example as clefs. The clefs showed where the semitones came (BC and EF), so he pointed out the F and C lines. The first clefs were the letters F and C.

The G clef was only added centuries later. It is still called a violin clef in many languages, because it was for that instrument. I get annoyed that it has taken over as the main music clef today. The word treble means multiply by 3. It is the 3rd clef! Give me the bass clef any day. It has a nice symmetry.

The idea of the grand staff with middle C in the center, is a stupid idea, introduced sometime after JS Bach (who used C clefs for the RH of keyboard music)! The 11 line grand staff is another completely fictitious invention. It never existed!

Musicrebel, your article on how the grand staff was invented by Guido in the 15th century ( ) is rather fanciful.

And you are practically inciting a riot here:

I want you to know that teaching your children music using the alphabetical method is BAD for your children's musical development. I want you to let your music teacher know this. Do not hesitate to make the music professionals broaden their horizons in music education methodology. It is better than closing your child's gateway into the wonderful world of music.

OK, you advocate fixed doh names. But then you have no names for relative pitch! In my opinion and experience, solfa is better used for relative pitch as Guido designed it! And as used by Kodaly in Hungary, Curwen/Glover in England, and shape-note singing in the USA. It is best to have both an absolute and a relative solfege ability.

Maybe you have softened your attitude more recently, since you say that in USA, it is OK to use letternames, and your software has this option.

Maybe you could even do a statistical study of results comparing the lettername students with the solfa students. Is there a difference, like you noted for colouring in the C spaces?

John K

[musicrebel4u]

John,
tetrachords, hexachords, writing music with letters, octaves - everything cane to Middle ages from Anchient Greece.
Sorry about article: they reprint my original with mistake. Original is here: -https://-https://www.doremifasoft.com/article1.html#_1_9
Of cause, Gvido didn't create 'fixed DO', because in his time music still didn't find (and couldn't find) absolute foundation.
Only in 18th century octave was evenly divided in 12 equal parts and circles of different tonalities were invented.
1+1 = came to development of Klavier and ability to write music in any key. Development of Orchestra and advance form of music.
Grand Staff - is a point of support for symphony, opera, piano and other advanced forms of music
And yes, I still am stating that Solfeggio with fixed DO, singing music in different keys and writing music by ear - is professional way of music education.
The main reason for this is that Solfeggio syllables are aaplying to speech memory of every individual and promote music ear, music memory and understanding on the speech level

[keypeg]

M4U, I've asked a question for clarification about solfege in the parallel thread so I don't want to be redundant, but that question is apt here too.

[musicrebel4u]

M4U, I've asked a question for clarification about solfege in the parallel thread so I don't want to be redundant, but that question is apt here too.

I answered there for you!

[johnk]

MusicRebel, can you explain to a moveable doh teacher how students can sing a tune by fixed doh?

To me doh - me is always a major 3rd, and doh is always the tonic of the key. Every tune is made of the same degrees of the scale, no matter what key you sing it in. When i hear a tune I dont know what key it is in, but I can hear the solfa syllables.

So for example, Twinkle is always doh doh soh soh la la soh. I dont see how you can learn to sing Twinkle with 7 different sets of syllables to account for any key. But you can learn to hear that it is doh (tonic) then soh (dominant) etc.

I t would be a help if you can explain how in Russia you know to sing a major or a minor 3rd etc when the same syllables must be sung differently depending on the key signature. I just dont understand it!

[musicrebel4u]

MusicRebel, can you explain to a moveable doh teacher how students can sing a tune by fixed doh?

To me doh - me is always a major 3rd, and doh is always the tonic of the key. Every tune is made of the same degrees of the scale, no matter what key you sing it in. When i hear a tune I dont know what key it is in, but I can hear the solfa syllables.

So for example, Twinkle is always doh doh soh soh la la soh. I dont see how you can learn to sing Twinkle with 7 different sets of syllables to account for any key. But you can learn to hear that it is doh (tonic) then soh (dominant) etc.

I t would be a help if you can explain how in Russia you know to sing a major or a minor 3rd etc when the same syllables must be sung differently depending on the key signature. I just dont understand it!

Well. here we go
 do re mi fa sol la ti do
re mi fa sol la ti do re
mi fa sol la ti do re mi
fa sol la ti do re mi fa etc

do mi sol ti re fa la do
re fa la do mi sol ti re
mi sol ti re fa la do mi etc

do fa ti mi la re sol do
re sol do fa to mi la re
mi la re sol do fa etc

Twincle twincle little star:
Do Major
Do do sol sol la la sol

Re Major
Re re la la ti ti la

Mi major
Mi mi ti ti do do ti
etc

Sometimes in school we also sang #s and flats
But when you feel it - you feel it without any saying

They thained us the way when we can listen to any piece in any key and in our mind translate it into solfeggio and write in on the fly down. 12-3 voices - doesn't matter.

[keypeg]

Twincle twincle little star:
Do Major
Do do sol sol la la sol

Re Major
Re re la la ti ti la

Mi major
Mi mi ti ti do do ti
etc

Sometimes in school we also sang #s and flats
But when you feel it - you feel it without any saying

They thained us the way when we can listen to any piece in any key and in our mind translate it into solfeggio and write in on the fly down. 12-3 voices - doesn't matter

Solfege was my only language for most of my life since childhood.  I have only learned pitch names and pitch in the last few years.  All my life, if I heard music, any music, I would remember it as "do do so so".   5 years ago I woke up from a dream with a melody.  I picked up a pencil and wrote it down like this: "mi la so do - ti mi re la".  Now I know standard notation - then I didn't.  This solfege was as natural as speaking words, or reading.

The notes you wrote: I sang them in the same way that I could read out loud the words on this screen.

I sang your rows of Twinkle.  It sounds like singing in modes: dorian, phrygian etc.  The scale is like a ladder.  It feels like singing the same song, but always standing one step higher on the ladder, and going up and down "relatively", but staying in the original key -- no accidentals (sharps, flats).

I have a feeling that this fixed do solfege is not what we are imagining it to be.  It is like an inside-out of pitch notation, which is outside-in, but it reaches the same place from the opposite side.  Later you add the accidentals, but you are standing on that ladder.

By any chance, is this part of the answer to John's question about the student who plays in Eb minor?

[johnk]

Thanks music rebel. But I know what syllables you sing for all 7 keys. I just think it is very difficult to learn. So when you say:

Sometimes in school we also sang #s and flats
But when you feel it - you feel it without any saying

They thained us the way when we can listen to any piece in any key and in our mind translate it into solfeggio and write in on the fly down. 12-3 voices - doesn't matter.

... I guess i want to know exactly how you were trained to do this.

And how you train your students to do it too.

For example if you dont have perfect pitch, and you are told a piece is in D, do you hear each note as the degree of the scale, and then calculate what name that would be for re major.

How we would do it, is you sing the tonic, calling it doh,  and you hear the tune as degrees of the scale, recognising each degree's "colour" or "flavour" (and sometimes singing the scale again to check the degree number). So you could sing it in relative solfa. Then you simply write it in the key you are told, relative to that tonic and with its key signature. Any chromatic notes will require an accidental.

[musicrebel4u]

Thanks music rebel. But I know what syllables you sing for all 7 keys. I just think it is very difficult to learn. So when you say:

... I guess i want to know exactly how you were trained to do this.

And how you train your students to do it too.

For example if you dont have perfect pitch, and you are told a piece is in D, do you hear each note as the degree of the scale, and then calculate what name that would be for re major.

How we would do it, is you sing the tonic, calling it doh,  and you hear the tune as degrees of the scale, recognising each degree's "colour" or "flavour" (and sometimes singing the scale again to check the degree number). So you could sing it in relative solfa. Then you simply write it in the key you are told, relative to that tonic and with its key signature. Any chromatic notes will require an accidental.

First I will try to describe Russian music school curriculum. When you enter music school, you have twice a week 45 minutes private lessons (your instrument). If your instrument is not a piano, you have about ½ hour of private piano lessons a week. Also you have 1,5 academic hour of Solfeggio, 1,5 hour of music theory, 1 hour of music history and choir.

Solfeggio is a very important subject. We learn how to sing scales in different keys, we sight-read music vocally, we write music dictations, have a lot of ear training, have to transpose melodies and learn harmony. So, Solfeggio is a fundamental subject and you may not enter to Music College or conservatory if you fail Solfeggio and music dictation.

In 4th grade we learn ABC system and use it for theory and harmony.

This training building skills to translate music sounds into syllables instantly. It doesn't mean that every student develops perfect pitch, but vocalization of many musical pieces through comfortable for that purpose syllables develops ability to hear and understand music, sharps, flats on almost physiological level. It becomes part of your mind.

The nature for that phenomenon is our speech memory. Before we start operating with any subjects in our thoughts, we have to give them names. By naming subjects we help them to enter into our cerebral cortex and sooner or later they become part of our mind.

In former USSA I developed way how to listen melody and write it at the same time with the speed of the music. My students are practicing the same skills with our system (Solfeggio and Chords). If you would be interested, I will share with you how I am training them. But it has to be a new thread, because this is a different topic.

[johnk]

Hi Hellene,

I may as well call you that, because other know thats what your name is.

I agree we have got off the topic of alternative notations here, so if you would like to start a new thread explaining how to do all this training without the years of institutionalised study done in USSR, I would be very interested.

But actually I have a friend and colleague who is very much like you in background, and she has also explained a lot about the Russian system. Her name is Lena and she is also from the Ukraine. I have found it interesting that in essence she and i do a melody dictation very much the same way, and I am keen to also try a sight singing exercise to see how we both do it, and compare methods.

She  has been a piano teacher in the music school that uses my books, and is still ordering more of my books although she now teaches privately. She is studying to be a school music teacher here in Australia, and realises that how she teaches must be compatible with the way others here are taught. She was at first frustrated by the fact that we dont have an institutionalised state run music curriculum here, but she also understands that the moveable doh system is more often used than fixed doh.

In essence, I am saying that I do understand a lot about the Russian system, and i have an opportunity to learn more, but I'm also interested if you think your method can cut short the amount of time of instruction that is needed in Russia or if your system is different to the USSR system.

[mennea]

You have to hand it to Good Ol’ Guido; his method has been around for almost a thousand year. I think the reason why his method has lasted is simply tradition. Of course, it was quite ingenious, but once most of classical music was written one way, it would have been too painstaking to change it to a new way. If the notation was changed then it would have started a trend; someone else would have come along and asked to change the notation the new way, and so on.

The traditional music notation reminds of the attempt in other field to make things “better”. For instance, Gregg Shorthand was to replace the traditional alphabet. If you think about it, the traditional alphabet was first used by the Romans more than 2,500 years ago. Why are we in the computer age still using a method that was originally used to carve a few letters into stone? Well, Gregg’s great idea never quite took off. And let’s not forget Esperanto, the language to replace all languages. And you know what happened to that idea.

Personally, I always wondered why Guido D’Arezzo never turned the sheet on its side so the reader would have had a better feel of the direction of the music. But then, that would have been an advantage to keyboard players only. In any case, let’s stick to this one; humans are known to get used to any thing, even the most uncomfortable situation; after all we still wear clothing in the summer, don’t we?! 

[gerry]

Remember the attempt to switch USA to metric

[mennea]

Let me add that Guido D’Arezzo wrote music for voice. It was then assigned to musical instruments in one form or the other.  So for keyboard players to speak of an easy method of notation with symbols for white keys, black keys and middle C seems quite selfish. I think we’re hurting the feelings of our big friends in the Tuba section, not to mention the little hearts of the piccolos’ players. Let’s be a little more considered of all our brother instrumentalists. What if one day the viola players were to stand up and demand that the notations should look more like tablature? God only knows the allies they have in the violin, and bass section. The piano players won’t have a prayer against the combined forces of the string and wind instruments. Piano players should quit while they’re ahead. But more importantly, let’s keep quiet, and make believe nothing is wrong with the notations system we got. The last thing we want is a restless mob and a rebellion on our hands. 

[johnk]

Remember the attempt to switch USA to metric

I dont know what is wrong with the USA. The rest of the world HAS changed to metric.

Let me add that Guido D’Arezzo wrote music for voice.

True and he invented the C and F clefs so the singer would know where the semitones came. In the diatonic scale they come below the C and the F, namely BC and EF. It was important for singers to know this. The modern Alternative Notations make the semitones even more explicit. A notation such as Twinline which uses two different shaped noteheads very easily identifies tones and semitones. I think Guido would have thought this an even better idea than marking the C and F lines.

Also, the C and F lines were originally coloured, so the singer never had to refer back to the start of the stave to see where the clefs ie semitones were. Today we have clefs and key signatures that sit at the start of the line and then must be kept in mind for the whole stave. The original idea was so that we wouldnt have to keep this all in mind.

I play viola, and can tell you that the unambiguousness of an alternative notation makes it equally applicable to this instrument as to 7-5 keyboards.

All instuments benefit from not having to learn all the key signatures.

[johnk]

Hello everyone.

I uploaded a video showing my aproach to music theory and a slightly modified version of my notation invention, Express Stave. In particular I have used two different shapes for the noteheads to replace the notes either lightly touching or slightly overlapping a line. The note shapes alternate chromatically, so it gives a better coding for the intervals - intervals with even number of semitones (major 2nd, 3rd, tritone etc) have like shapes, and odd ones (minor 3rd, perfect 4th and 5th etc) have unlike shapes.

I have also used Hellena's idea of introducing the stave vertically, and I would like to thank her for this idea.

Included in the video are what I consider some of the problems of traditional notation, and an example of other ways of explaining music theory topics. (Major scale structure)

It worries me that a lot of what people call music THEORY is in fact about conventional NOTATION. eg "Music is written on a staff (stave) of 5 lines." It ISNT! Music is sounded! Conventional music NOTATION is written on a staff of 5 lines.

https://au.youtube.com/watch?v=IGnmiF5L2Xs

Cheers, John

[leahcim]

Hello everyone.

I uploaded a video showing my aproach to music theory

Is this it?

[johnk]

No, it isnt Leahcim.

I have had heaps of requests for my transcriptions and my video tutorials have had lots of good comments.

Anyone want to learn Weezer's Pork and Beans? Check this out:

https://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zif353tORSc

My article on the history of the letternames ABCDEFG has been cited for StumbleUpon.

My Express Stave student is about 5 times faster than my traditional notation students.

I am not interested in trying to influence conservatives who have no ability to think outside of the status quo and want to tear down anyone who does. "I'll eat my candy with the Pork and Beans" ...

[leahcim]

I am not interested in trying to influence conservatives who have no ability to think outside of the status quo and want to tear down anyone who does

Me neither. I just wanted to make someone laugh.

[johnk]

Hi all,
 
I've put up a YouTube video showing notation conversion (transnotation) to various other staff styles, including Twinline and Express Stave. I think this method is very simple to use yet powerful, but cannot be done in versions of NotePad past 07. I urge everyone to download Finale NotePad 06 before it is no longer available.
 
https://au.youtube.com/watch?v=OJGstrBTIE4
 
Cheers, John K

[johnk]

Past versions of Finale NotePad are now officially no longer available.

My very simple method of pasting a notation style over an existing piece of music in a free music application is now officially only possible if you already have the software -NotePad 06.

My dream was to have a lot of music available in a form that the user can change to whatever notation style they like. Not only Alternative Notations, but Guitar Tab, Letternames, sol-fa, change of clef, transposing instruments ...

Anyhow, I still press on. I designed a new notehead font with a 6-6 coding that improves the interval recognition in Express Stave.
https://au.youtube.com/watch?v=fIVV1hmEPiY

There is also a Karaoke file of Pachelbel canon for violists (in traditional notation), and an example of using accompaniment to keep a student playing rhythmically in scales.

John

[johnk]

Hello Piano Streeters,

Its been a while since I gave an update on my notation, Express Stave. My latest YouTube video is a tutorial on learning the bass clef (traditional notation). I do however branch out to show how easily the bass can be transformed into Express Stave notation, in this case, with reversed colours, so that the naturals have black noteheads and the accidentals have white noteheads.

This has a few advantages over the original notehead colouring. It is easier to write by hand, since the notes B and F which are midway between lines and dont touch, are now solid notes. It also makes the more common music - crotchests and quavers on the naturals - look more similar to traditional notation. And it is less likely to be dismissed as a piano tablature.

See how easily you can play the ten mystery tunes at the end of this video.

[pianisten1989]

Why can't you just accept that the normal is better than yours?
It would be tremendously difficult to play prima vista if you have to look on how th notes looks like.

You write them as they wrote it in the 1500

[johnk]

What about the fact that you are able to see where the semitones occur at first glance? Doesnt this help you to sing the tunes and identify them? How many tunes did you recognise? I think what I show in this video is how similar the notations are, not how different. Is it really so different for you to say "tremendously difficult"?

One of the aims of my video is to show you that you CAN read my notation. Did you find you could not actually read it? I find this very hard to beleive.

[nanabush]

I don't doubt that starting someone off with that notation could take them far.  It does seem to be pretty structured.  But for me (I've been reading 5 line staffs for 12 years), it would be like reading a book where all of the a's are e's and all of the m's are n's (something along those lines).  It messes with my mind more than it helps.

If the yankee doodle tune (I checked a few vids) was written out on a blank piece of paper, I'd probably be able to identify it.  Accidentals are not a pain if you are used to them.  I'd feel safer with my key signature than having black/white notes all over the place.

[johnk]

Thankyou for your comment nanabush. It does make learning pieces much easier as evidenced from my students. My aim is to teach traditional as well. But it takes a long time to get familiar with all 15 key signatures, as you would be aware. Im pleased you recognised Yankee Doodle, and of course you are more used to seeing sharp and flat signs than white noteheads. What i hoped to show was that in TN (traditional notation) you have different notehead colours (minims/halfnotes) anyway, so although they have a different meaning in ES (Express Stave), it is not so strange looking. Would you be able to sing a scale correctly with regard to the tones/semitones (whole/half-steps) in TN in any key signature? Do you think the extra visual cue for semitones in ES was helpful?

[nanabush]

Personally, I don't think I have any issue with singing any whole/half steps or any interval for that matter in any key signature.

BUT, I do know of more visual learners (drilling in the rules for note naming, reminding the circle of fifths) who would like the extra cue for semitones/whole tones.  I did like the Fantaisie Impromptu idea though, by turning the staff downwards.  It is a really cool idea.

[johnk]

OK , so you have looked at some of my other YouTube videos, thanks for that. The vertical staff idea came from Hellene of Soft Mozart, as well as from Klavar notation, which is the most widely used alternative notation (AN).

I have written a young beginners book which uses the idea, and agree with Hellene that it is very good for little kids, they can follow the notes to the right or left without having to translate page directions of up and down into keyboard directions of right and left.

I use "birds" and "frogs" to represent high and low sounds, and since the bird sounds are on the right, this side must be the sky, so we can start turning the page (stave) so that the sky is up, etc.

I attach a page from this book. A 4yo student read this piece very nicely in the vertical orientation this week. You can see how they are getting the idea of "stepping" as going from a line to a space. This skill will carry over into reading TN later on.

[lostinidlewonder]

Serious the Chinese are taking over the world even with our music reading now? Up to down right to left... urg my head is spinning.

 My question would be how does one child move away from this way of reading and then start reading traditionally? Is there harm done teaching them to read in this way then try to make them read another way later on? Why not get them to read correctly straight away and develop good habits now and early on while the mind is a clean slate?

[johnk]

At the piano I start with the page vertical, so even a 3 yo can follow notes on the page this way or that. I gradually use the terminology "up" for when the notes go more towards the "birds" (on the right) and "down" for when notes go towards the "frogs" (on the left). I encourage the parent to use the book horizontally when reading the words to the kid, singing the songs as a bedtime story etc. When the kid can play a song well, I will try "putting the birds up in the sky", turning the book sideways and see if they can still play the song while I point to the notes , helping the kid to "go up or down" and pointing the right directinon on the keys etc. So far it seems to work fine. I guess I trust that Hellene has done the ground work in her Soft Mozart method. If you were not convinced of the method, you could always just use the book horizontally from the outset. But then some kids will get mixed up which way to play, specially for downward, where the notes are read to the right but you play to the left.

[mattgreenecomposer]

My pops always said..."if it ain't broke don't fix it."

[johnk]

They probably said the same about Roman Numerals. Old people hate change. Now how can this guy make a living with his way of teaching if traditional notation is so easy?

[johnk]

Here is a tutorial for the opening of Beethovens Moonlight sonata. I use a vertical Express Stave alligned with the piano keys. Non-music-trained kids could learn to read the music easily like this.

Regarding my black key letternames H I J K and L, a conservatorium piano teacher once said to me "Unfortunately no pianos have these names for the black keys!" Isnt there something funny about that statement?

[johnk]

I designed three new clefs for Express Stave. One complaint was that it was not a good idea to use the treble clef for ES since when people see a treble clef they think the bottom space inside is F as in FACE, whereas in ES it is A like in the bass.

So I decided to keep the traditional concept that a clef not only indicates the register to play but defines a note position on the stave.

The bass clef defines the F as in traditional notation, but for ES I reversed it so it actually looks more like a cursive "F". You can also call it a "Frog clef" as it is for the low register. It shows the F note as the non-touching note in the upper half of the stave.

The ES treble clef is now a B clef, defining the non-touching note midway in the lower half of the stave as B. It can also be called a "Bird clef" as it is for the high register. This ensures it will not be confused with the TN treble clef which defines this staff position as G.

The ES Middle clef is a D clef and defines the centre line as D, middle register. It is the register for kids voices, and looks like a smiley face.

You can see the F and B clefs here in this PDF which has Bachs prelude WTC1-1, transposed into all 12 keys, starting in F and going down by semitones . The original C major is on page 6. My ES student can play this at sight in any key. If you use control with page down, you can see how the notes get transposed down by semitones and see the different proportions of black and white keys for each tonality.

https://musicnotation.org/w/images/c/ce/JS_Bach_Prelude_1_in_C_major_WTC1_%28ES_all_keys%29.pdf