A little Technique Question :)

[rikity]

i'm a mostly self taught Pianist, and i am currently learning "Beethoven Piano Sonata No.14 in C-sharp minor, Op. 27, No. 2" -- i can play the 1st and 2nd movement no problem, but the third movement is giving me trouble, i can play some of it, but i am struggling to get the technique right for this bit:



my right hand seems to hit the wrong keys, if i play it at the speed it is meant to be played at, any help to improve my technique would be Awesome    Quite frustrating to be able to play the middle of a song, but not beginning 

[donjuan]

There is a new hand position starting on the 2nd 16th note of each group of 4. 

I would play each position as a solid chord. 

Once I can move from one chord to the next with ease and no hesitation, I would roll the chords a little. 

From there, I would work on turning an arpeggiated chord into 4 notes. 

Then, I would have someone (usually my teacher) listen to me play the right hand at speed.  He would then point out weaknessess in certain fingers, and we would work on the finger itself, going through the weight transfer process slowly. 

If I hit wrong notes, he tells me to pay careful attention to the elbow and think about how the elbow brings the hand to the right position, rather than the wrist or shoulder, as I would have played with originally. 

--------
I hope that by paraphrasing my experience in a similar situation has helped.  I know how frustrating it can be to be self taught.  Many bad habits can form, that may work well for you at the current state, but the skill is most probably not transferable to other situations, and you will have to come up with some other innovation.  Believe me, I KNOW!  *thinks about past bad habits*

donjuan

[gorbee natcase]

The way I got this right was to start playing the left hand almost tremollo ,No strict time,
it helps drive the right hand along 1235 1235 so just try playing the left hand faster than usual and your right hand should follow suit it is a strange feeling at first as long as you have the acending arpeggios and fingering down
start left hand first then enter the right until you feel comfortable  

[countchocula]

There is a new hand position starting on the 2nd 16th note of each group of 4. 

I would play each position as a solid chord. 

Once I can move from one chord to the next with ease and no hesitation, I would roll the chords a little. 

From there, I would work on turning an arpeggiated chord into 4 notes. 

Ditto - Sounds good.

[rikity]

awesome, i'll try that ^.^   i'll share my progress and thoughts with you in the next few days 

hope it works 

[lombardian]

Oh and btw dont forget to make each note nice and sperate. Dont make it sound in the least bit mushy. It should be a nice finger articualted, non-legato, non-staccato, if that makes any sense....

[musicsdarkangel]

I would practice it

1.  SLOWLY

2.  fast, but only the first few notes and the thumb movement.  Do each set of notes after the thumb movement to the next, and make sure your thumb nails the note it needs to hit cleanly, in the middle of the key.

3.  softly and slowly, playing each note stacatto using as little of the key as possible

4.  very STRONG, slowly, with tough finger action

I think the way to nail fast passages is to practice them multiple ways.

It works quite well for me.

Get the movements down, the thumb position changes.  Practice them over and over, whatever speed you need to to excecute them cleanly.

[rikity]

hmm, you may have to tone the Piano playing language down a bit, Remember i am mostly Self Taught     this is by far the hardest piece i've attempted, and with minimal Real life help, you guys are awesome ( apart from sticcato and things, that makes little sense ^.^ )

you probably think i am an idiot now    and you probably find this piece Very Easy 

[rikity]

Also, when i finish/give up on this piece, any suggestions on what to learn next? something similar, but maybe a little bit easier, i'm a fan of minor keys, but have very little knowledge of the pianist world... this place is very Professional for me, i almost feel out of place 

[jamie_liszt]

Don juan is right, play them as chords first, then start to roll once your used to it. All it is is inversions of the first chord, pretty easy if you ask  me

[rikity]

ok i've been putting a few of these into practise, and i'm improving alot, Thanks for all your help 

[fiasco]

If you're into Beethoven and are able to play that 3rd movement, then you should like and be able to play his Tempest and Pathetique sonatas.  The third movement of the Tempest is awesome, and similar to what you're learning now, as is the first of the Pathetique, and both are easier than the Moonlight's 3rd.  Then you can move on to the Appassionata.  Then Waldstein.  Don't worry about not knowing certain terminology just yet, that'll come.  Only thing that matters is what it sounds like when you play.  If you're self taught and are someday able to play the entire Moonlight well, you're already ahead of the game.

Also, try the first movement of Franz Liszt's transcription of Beethoven's 5th symphony.  I'm learning it now and it's not that bad.  Once you get the passages down it's a blast  to play, and people love it.

[rikity]

Awesome, Thanks 

[penguinlover]

All these tips are great!  When I learned this piece it was helpful to practice very slowly.  The speed comes naturally as you get precise.  My teacher always told me never to play anything faster than I could play it without mistakes.  Sometimes that means you go painstakingly slow.  The results are worth it!

[penguinlover]

This is just a question for donjuan.  He mentioned in his previous post about the position of the elbow, and how that guides the position of the hands and helps hitting wrong notes. I was just wondering if he could elaborate a bit on that.  Thanks.   I don't have a teacher either.

[donjuan]

This is just a question for donjuan.  He mentioned in his previous post about the position of the elbow, and how that guides the position of the hands and helps hitting wrong notes. I was just wondering if he could elaborate a bit on that.  Thanks.   I don't have a teacher either.

I feel kind of like I'm plagarizing, repeating my teachers words... but anyway, Im sure he wouldn't mind.  If anything, he would be mad about me screwing up the description and telling you to do the wrong thing!    anyway, be warned..

Ok, so what I write here mostly applies to passages like scales or arpeggios, where the hand has to get from position to position, and it seems like it has to be done in a hurry.  The problem is that hurrying sacrifices optimal support.  Therefore, try to find hand positions so you can turn, say, 16 individual notes into 4 comfortable hand positions.  So then you learn the notes in the hand positions.  The hardest part is combining hand positions, which I find easiest way is to jump to the last key of the position you are trying to get to. 

That sounded confusing.  Let's take an example, say when you want to play a descending C major arpeggio, starting at the *:

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
1     2   3       1     2    3       1     2   3       5*
{            }    {             }     {                     }
Hand positions are indicated with {}.  Here is the problematic change from one position to the next:

                             F G A B C D E
                                3       1     2
                                 }      {

Instead of going from C with the thumb to G with the 3rd finger, try to go from C with the thumb to the C an octave below, with the thumb:

                    C D E F G A B C D E
                    1                   1     2
                                 }     {

If you practice going from thumb key to thumb key, you are training to be ready for the next position without even trying to be.  However, this requires a nimble elbow to be comfortable.  Eventually, you will be catching the G and E keys while your thumb shifts from C to C.  Just don't think about going from C to G, because that is slow and awkward, as you are running out of fingers, and your wrist is getting all twisted up. 

The wrist's position is dictated by the elbow, and the elbow to the shoulder etc.  anyway, if the elbow stops working (gets all stiff), then the wrist stops working, and the fingers try to stretch uncomfortably during hand position changes, and it is very easy to play notes you dont mean to play by accident.  This is why you should pay attention to your wrist when you play wrong notes; so you can find the cause of your problem, whether it be a stiff elbow or whatever.

I hope I explained it somewhat successfully; My teacher can do much better in 30 seconds by showing me at the piano.  Anyway, I am just explaining it the way I understood it.  I felt that it helped me eliminate that feeling of rushing and sacrificing right notes for rhythm.

donjuan

[elevateme]

just get your thumb ready and its easy

[rikity]

Lol, all this help has paid off, and i can do these "Arpeggiated Chords" with ease, even at speed. Except for one that occurs Sometimes, the  C#   E   G   C#  One, Which my Keyboard calls C#dim.   but i'm sure with practise it will get ok, i just have to practise the rest of the piece at speed... i'm still not able to play the whole piece at the speed it should be played at. but that comes with practise ^.^   Although some of the left hand seems to confuse my right hand, when playing the (what i like to call) "verses" of it, where you are playing 3-4, sometimes even 5 notes alternatively , simultaneously, and at great speeds. while concentrating on a right hand too!  but it all comes with learning a piece i suppose... i'll save you my rambling, and go practise some more ^.^

Thanks again, Guys, Nice Detailed Descriptions by Donjuan, much appreciated

[elevateme]

honestly right its so easy, all youve got to do is put your thumb on the next note as youre going up, and then your hand will be ready for the next run. hope that helps

[pianowelsh]

yeah the second 16th note group idea is good. I would start there and then play each 8ve and then the two inner notes as a chord as a bridge to playing the 16ths as written that way you get the solidity of the upward 8ve progression firmly in your hand/arm and you get to practice the moving of the thumb rapidly as you play the inner two notes (bonus!) there is the added adantage that the inner note will then coincide with the LH quaver/8th note so you can put hands together and feel how it will really feel at tempo (its good to get the feel in your shoulder girdle that is created when both arms are in motion thats why i suggest this method because it gets your hands together whilst still getting at the main difficulty.  When this is automatic play thumb innr two notes then 5th - concentrating on the rapid and accurate movemnet of the thumb.  Guarenteed it will be the thumb that will let you down everytime with this piece so realy work at getting the thumb accurate and lightening fast or it will act like a drag net when you try and speed it up. Good luck - Ok i just wrote this then read everyone elses so youve got good advice here NAIL that thumb!!

[penguinlover]

to donjuan.  thanks for the elaboration.  I think I understand.  That's where having a real live teacher comes in real handy, huh?

[donjuan]

to donjuan.  thanks for the elaboration.  I think I understand.  That's where having a real live teacher comes in real handy, huh?

absolutely!  Actually, I am going to have to learn to practice what I preach, because I just started to do Liszt's Transcendental Etude No. 1, and that opening descending C 7th arpeggio fits the bill.  I am going to see my teacher in a week or so, and if he has more to say about that technique, I'll post again.

[bernhard]

Excellent advice from Donjuan (and others).

However, I disagree that you should play this slowly and speed will develop. This will only happen if you are using the correct movements when playing slowly (that is, you are playing in slow motion). Since you are self-taught, the chances of this to happen are pretty dismal. More likely, because you are playing slowly, you will be able to get away with all sorts of wrong motions – wrong because you would never get away with them at speed – so that when you try to speed up these inappropriate motions they will constitute a formidable speed wall. You must practise in the beginning at top speed – and then slow down when you have figured out the speed motions. To do that you must work on very small segments. The three most important practice tricks for this sort of passage are:

1.   The chord trick (which Donjuan has already explained)
2.   Dotted rhythms.
3.   Repeated note groups (make a group = five notes)

If all this is new to you, have a look at these threads:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2076.msg17157.html#msg17157
(Speed – the 3 most important factors)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2449.msg21204.html#msg21204
(repeated note-groups as a way to tackle Czerny op. 740 no. 2)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3064.msg26866.html#msg26866
(Repeated note-groups applied to Gottschalk)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2552.msg22037.html#msg22037
(Accuracy – causes for inaccuracy – One possible solution: repeated note-groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3778.msg35061.html#msg35061
(Speed: discussion about gradually speeding up with a metronome or using Chang’s approach)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4851.msg47341.html#msg47341
(Practising for speed – Example: Beethoven Op. 49 no. 2)

And this thread deals specifically with this movement:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3371.msg30141.html#msg30141
(zoom-zoom – all about speed playing – example: 3rd movt of Moonlight)

Tip of the iceberg.


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[the cadenza kid]

This kinda belongs with the hand position stuff, but it's very important for these types of arpeggios. They also sorta occur in Chopin's first etude, yet those are a tiny bit bigger . When your moving from position to position, make sure your not lifting your 4th and 5th fingers too high. keep the back of your hand level with the keys. This will help you with the speed and evenness. Also, make sure you keep the arpeggios quiet until the accent on the top, and that the piece is marked agitato. The arpeggios should have a quasi staccato feel to em, which in laymans terms means, slightly disconnected.  A tip as regards the left hand on these passages--don't lift your fingers off the keys. Someone before was spot on earlier by saying to treat it like a tremolo. More of a warning than a tip I guess. Just my two cents on these passages. Have fun, this is a great movement!!

[rikity]

Hmm.. been a while since i've Returned to this thread, Lots of insight here! but i have yet another Problem:

This particular Bit seems too not let my hands play it correctly ^.^  my technique and hand position is Very obviously wrong in my eyes probably due to it all being black notes, but i fail to find a technique that works for it. Any help would be Great 

[nick]

For me it was not a thumb problem, it was all the other fingers. The comments about playing somewhat staccato are good, not that ones tries to play that way, it's just that when it's fast and you are stiking the notes with raised fingers not too hard it comes out that way. As a tried and true method, work on accuracy first and gradually increase speed. As ones speed get pretty fast, it will take a bit longer for the next slight increase, much like sprinters taking awhile for their next increase once their speed gets pretty fast. Be patient. Stick with it and you will see the increase come. Then the next increase until you reach your performance speed. Good luck.

Nick