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Topic: Rhythm in K475, Mozart  (Read 5328 times)

Offline sissco

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Rhythm in K475, Mozart
on: February 16, 2006, 05:25:38 PM
Hi,

Can someone help me with this part? :



and



it is on page four.....i really don't feel the rhythm there  ???

Edit: Yeah triplet it is, in english.... ::)
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Offline pianistimo

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Re: Rhythm in K475, Mozart
Reply #1 on: February 16, 2006, 05:47:18 PM
good guess, but it's actually signifies a triplet.  ok.  you have a sharp sign up near the trill so what happens is you play the E (written) and then play F# E D# E (d# e written) so in effect you have a triplet with the e,f#,e and then play the two sixteenth notes.

i have 1,4,3,2,1 for that passage.   (left hand 5,2,1,2)

for the triplets in the other passage (rh) 1,2,4 (alternating with 5)

Offline sissco

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Re: Rhythm in K475, Mozart
Reply #2 on: February 16, 2006, 07:02:32 PM
Ok i get the first part....but i still suck with the other passage (second image). Because you play the left hand and than the two notes for the right hand fast in a triplet, and than just play triplets....aaargh it is weird  :D But that will be me  ???...

By the way, thanks for your help  ;)

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Rhythm in K475, Mozart
Reply #3 on: February 16, 2006, 07:22:01 PM
play the first three (lh and then right hand) saying 'tri - pu - let'  ...

hope that helps.  it helps my students.  you can also use the metronome let the beat match the individual triplet beats.

ps  in difficult rhythms, it's best to draw in the main beats with a light pencil line straight down through both staves.  so look for where the beginning of each triplet is and draw the line there.  for instance in this portion you'd have the first beat in the left hand F#, second on the A#, third on the B, fourth on the A-natural.

Offline sissco

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Re: Rhythm in K475, Mozart
Reply #4 on: February 17, 2006, 01:49:10 PM
Quote
for the triplets in the other passage (rh) 1,2,4 (alternating with 5)
1,2,4 is very good.....I did 1,2,5 1,2,5 etc.

But....they play there 140! Or close to that....it is impossible fast  :o

And one last question.....the passage after that....(C Eb A C F# A Eb F# C etc) what is the best fingering for that? Thx very much  :)

Edit: Oh and the passage after that to  ;D My teacher is on vacation so she can't help me  ;) And i have learned myself a piece with the worng fingering so i don't want to make that mistake again  ;) And I think that there are standard fingerings for these passages...? Just asking so I am sure of it  :)

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Rhythm in K475, Mozart
Reply #5 on: February 17, 2006, 06:14:02 PM
in the verlag edition they have fingered only the first note of each slur of the triplet (two notes) i have 1 _ 1_ 2(i use 3)_ 2...  down to measure 86 where you have f# 4,1,3,1,5,3,5,2,4,1,3,1,5,3,5,2,4,1,5,2, f-natural fermata(this is where there is a sort of CADENZA!!! so don't count exactly/ just speed up a bit naturally as it is written 1...(a c flat, d) 234, (f,a, c flat, d) 1234...until you get to measure 89 (sixteenths a,c, half note e-flat) = 123.  going down the cadenza flourish you have d, c, b-flat 214, agf 321, e-nat e-flat dc 4321, b-flat agf 4321, g =2.   

now, when you get to the octaves - take the top with the rh and the bottom with the lh (after you play only rh e-flat's) rh =214321,4321,4321,32  lh (sneak 3 onto the e-flat) then play 123123451231231, 2345 together on chord.   

the verlag has the 2nd little cadenza written in, too: 3 (held note e -flat) 432312312341231212312341231212..i lost my spot... anyway just follow the pattern and when you get to the top the d is 1 and the e-flat is 3 , then 4 2 1, 3  (whatever your teacher says) then back into it.

Offline abstractentity

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Re: Rhythm in K475, Mozart
Reply #6 on: February 19, 2006, 01:45:26 AM
Would anyone care to explain the rhythm a few measures before and during the first chromatic? 

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Rhythm in K475, Mozart
Reply #7 on: February 19, 2006, 11:46:31 AM
ok.  i learned that when mozart was creating his piano concertos - the first had lead-ins (eingange) and some cadenzas that were 'unmetered.'  they did not have 'exact exact' counting - but followed the idea of 'improvisation.'  there are no bar lines existing in  (have to look at which pc cadenza - one of the earliest ones) them.  then as time went on, he made them more precise.  but, when he played them - they were improvised and just played as he felt them.

in this fantasy you have two 'mini' cadenzas (after the fermatas).  you just play away!  it's a fantasy.

i have several versions of a paper that i wrote entitled 'what is an appropriate cadenza for a mozart piano concerto?'  i mostly analyzed the existing cadenzas of mozart, but then also analyzed other composers cadenzas too.  here's more of an explaination of what was occurring compositionally:

'wolfgang amadeus mozart was a composer who wrote concertos not only for himself, but for his sister nannerl, for various students, and for certain performers he had in mind.  in this paper the eighteenth-century cadenza will take on many varied forms, yet for the most part be quite simple.  instead of proving a single performance thesis, what will be sought out will be an historical understanding of the classical cadenza with varying interpretations according to the particular purpose and style of the mozart concerto and/or performer.  mozart had a tendency to write out cadenzas to his piano concertos, thus leaving a trail of 'improvisation lead sheets' for those who now study the remaining original cadenzas and lead-ins (eingange).  today, we might think in terms of jazz musicians using skeletal riffs and expanding upon them.  mozart followed the baroque practice of improvising short, unaccompanied passages at points of rest separating, for example, a largo from an allegro section.  baroque cadenzas were usually concise - 'perhaps a mere flourish of notes' - but they conveniently and dramatically introduced soloists who would appear alone afterwards.  corelli used short cadenzas in his op. 5 solo church sonatas.  basically, the lead-in (eingange) is a brief improvised passage that leads to a true solo passage (or makes us aware of a repeat with more improvisation to it).  in mozart, as opposed to corelli, the musical separation is not the concertino from the tutti, but rather the piano from the orchestra leading to the piano alone.  or, if the lead-in occurs at the end of a cadenza, it lead the orchestra back in gradually.

definition of the cadenza in the eighteenth century

we have many sources for a definition of the cadenza in the eighteenth century. some theorist/composer/performers of the time include johann quantz, leopold mozart, cpe bach, and daniel gottleib turk...quantz and bach were of the 'old school' of thought in that they believed an instrumental cadenza should be most like a singer's cadenza and capable of being executed in a single breath.  gb mancini, a singing teacher at the imperial court in vienna, (though realizing that the one breath rule was often broken) added his ideas in that there should be a relationship of improvised passages to the thematic material.  during the eighteenth century there was no uniform opinion on this.
quantz suggested that a singer who could not think of something new with which to begin a cadenza should choose instead one of the most attractive motifs fromt he aria and build a cadenza from it.  if the record of the century's greatest composers is anything to go by, js bach, his sons, haydn and mozart all composed non-thematic cadenzas and only from about 1779 onwards do mozart's cadenzas begin to quote or develop thematic material from the concerto to which they belong. (1/2 paragraph quoted from dr.badura-skoda and dr. william drabkin - under 'cadenza' in the new grove dictionary.

anyhew...the improvisational beginning of the cadenza with voice led to other instruments following suit whenever a fermata was encountered.  in fact, the word cadenza is also called 'cadence' or 'fermata.'  in italian; arbitrio, point d'orgue.  during this quiet time where the accompaniment pauses or sustains a pitch or chord, a passage is played by a soloist that is either improvised or written out over the penultimate or ante penultimate note or harmony of the cadence....

trills signalling the beginning and ending of cadenzas are mentioned by quantz in 'the art of playing the german flute.'  he speaks of trills in the context of the messe di voce.  the player is warned not to use the embellishment too often.  there were guidelines from tromlitz that summed up the standard useage of trills at the end of the eighteenth century.  "the vibrato (bebung) is a wave-like, quivering movement that is introduced on a long held note, which can be slow or fast, uniform, increasing or decreasing...it can be used on held notes, pauses, and on the note before a cadenza."  once the cadenza is established by this trill, there is a general theory about what shoudl follow written by daniel gottlieb turk in his 'klavierschule (1789).'  he lamented the practice of making extrememly lengthy cadences that had little to do witht he piece they were meant to embellish and drew up a list of ten rules governing cadenzas. 

1. the cadenza should reinforce the impression made by the composition by providing a brief summary of it; this may be achieved by weaving some of the important ideas from the piece into the cadenza.
2.the cadenza should not be difficult for it's own sake, but rather contain thoughts that are suited to the main character of the composition.
3. the cadenza should not be too  long, especially in sad compositions.
4. modulations should be avoided or used only in passing, and should never stray beyond the maind keys established in the piece.
5. the cadenza, in addition to expressing a unified sentiment, must have some musical variety to maintain a listener's interest.
6. ideas should not be repeated, either in the same key or in different keys.
7. dissonances, even in single-voiced cadenzas, must be properly resolved.
8. a cadenza need not be learnt, but should show 'novelty', wit and an abundance of ideas.
9. in a cadenza the performer should not stay in ONE TEMPO or METRE too long, but should give the idea of 'ordered disorder.' a cadenza may be usefully compared to a dream, in which events that have been compressed into the space of a few minutes make an impression, yet lack of coherence and clear conciousness.
10. a cadenza should be performed as though it had just occurred to the performer.  nevertheless, it is risky to improvise a cadenza ont he spot, and much safer to write it down.

*note:  i made a point to argue in my paper against the modern theory that mozart didn't write many of his cadenzas down (because he improvised so much).  though it is true that he did improvise - he kept a separate folio of his cadenzas (for himself - away from publishers) - and several scholars such as margaret mikulsa believe that from letters we can deduce that many WERE written and that perhaps there was a loss of a second more or less complete portfolio of cadenzas.  history indicates (my words) that during world war I, much was destroyed in germany and austria.  could it be that mozart wrote more cadenzas than discovered?  (mozart jealously guarded his personal performance materials in order to ensure, in particular, that his concerto scores were not copied without his authorisation.  regarding the cadenzas he seems to have taken a similarly protective stand (faye ferguson).
     

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Rhythm in K475, Mozart
Reply #8 on: February 19, 2006, 12:58:09 PM
sorry to write so much, but you got me going.  here's another version of the beginning of my paper:

...mozart's indication of 'col basso' (or his duplication of the bass)in the piano (continuo) part in his manuscripts in non-solo passages provided figured bass for the piano during all tuttis in all 18th century editions of the concertos (seen also by the left hand continuo part that begins the 413 cadenza).  mozart was known to have studied fux's gradus ad parnassum and was particularly fond of figured bass in composition.  in fact, leopold's name is inscribed in a copy of the gradus now int he mozarteum at salzburg; and with it is a notebook in which as a child wolfgang madeus worked through fux's counterpoint exercises.  mozart's teacher, padre martini said: 'we have no system other than that of fux.'  in composing the cadenza K 413, you can see that mozart started with two ideas.  melody and bass.  from there, everything just flowed into an organization that was ordered (almost preordered) and made his composition easier the more he did it.  you can see the idea of figured bass in the pedal tone C (doubled) used int he first 7 measures of the K 413, and then again in the next 7 measures with the chromatic doubling.  the use of the long notes (whole notes) recalls the ancient practice,a nd the shorter chromatic doubling incorporates mozart's new practice ' but exceeds rameau's ideas with it's use of chromaticism and emphasis on relations' to all the notes.  mozart's system is similar to the idea of tonality as described by festis, in that it comprehends the relatedness OF ALL THE TONES.  it corresponds in some degree to festis's vision of the omnitonic state of music...in the omnitonic state, every tone may become a leading tone...however, in mozart's system, it is the tonic potential of every tone that is the form generating element.'  (imo this is mozart's genius)

in the K 413 we see a form emerging of a departure from the 6/4 chord (over C bass), and elaboration which moves to a deceptive cadence in b natural.  then it moves to Bb (which is still a IV chord in the key of F).  mozart is already becoming quite a skilled composer to modulate and not care about moving to the V chord until much later (despite fermatas).  there are really no themes here, but snippets of motives that sequence or are elaborated on....this is a new idea, along with the old idea of shorter sequences of octaves, thirds, repeated sixteenth note patterns, and chromatic trills at the end (perhaps a newer idea- combining the old trill with moving up chromatically from one measure to the next).  mozart knows how to move anywhere and yet not modulated out of the existing key.  he could if he wanted to, but in his cadenzas he does not modulate (whereas other composers who wrote for him sometimes do).

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Rhythm in K475, Mozart
Reply #9 on: February 19, 2006, 01:04:12 PM
ok.  so going back to the fantasy - we see a sneaky mozart giving us a deceptive e-flat note and expect this to go somewhere else with all the chromaticism.  but, then ends on e-natural (surely this is going to change key?) then, e-flat again...and then we see, oh, he's using this as a leading tone back into c minor - with the b-flat dim chord even deceptive until you get to the SECOND BEAT and finally 'whew.'  ok.  we know where we are.  he's so completely sneaky.

the beginning of this fantasy reminds me of that curel commercial with the alligator slinking out (i see two) and a woman putting on the lotion.  perhaps this is a bizarre interpretation - but it's like danger lurking under the water or something.
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