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Topic: article on touchweight  (Read 6383 times)

Offline pianistimo

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article on touchweight
on: February 21, 2006, 02:51:37 PM
www.pianofinders.com

click on 'educational'  and then scroll down to 'piano rebuilding' and click on 'touchweight.'
 i notice some pianos seem to have different weights on different keys - and thus mess up pianists technique right from the start.  should a person measure the weightedness of the keys going upt he keyboard.  how much more are the bass notes normally weighted?

Offline yuc4h

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Re: article on touchweight
Reply #1 on: February 21, 2006, 03:32:27 PM
Interesting article. I measured the weightings of my piano, it has downweight of ~60g and upweight ~35g. That's quite odd considered that electric pianos are normally thought to have too light actions :)

Offline gfiore

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Re: article on touchweight
Reply #2 on: February 21, 2006, 05:37:23 PM
 The standard for many manufacturers has been about 56 grams in the bass tapering to 47 grams in the treble, with up weight at no less than 20 grams. Each manufacturer has a different spin on this spec. For example, Steinway specifies 52 grams in the bass tapering to 47 grams in the treble, with upweight being no less than 20 grams. Bösendorfer specifies these down weight specs 52 50 48 48 from bass to high treble, with up weights of 18 20 20 20 from bass to treble. Schimmel specifies 50 +/_ 2 grams for their grands.
George Fiore  aka "Curry"
 Piano Technician serving the central New Jersey Area.
My piano- A 2004 Bosendorfer Model 214 #47,299 214-358

Offline pianistimo

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Re: article on touchweight
Reply #3 on: February 21, 2006, 05:46:03 PM
thanks!  now with kawaii uprights - is the action just tight - making it stiffer action?  or are the keys weighted?  it's a 1987 studio upright (forget the make/model - but i can get it).

and, one more question - when you buy a piano - what is a good way to make sure all the keys are weighted appropriately?  should you bring a weight and test each key?  also, how do you know if they are evenly weighted - since as a consumer we can't measure the weight of the hammers, etc.  just going by the drop of the key?  ie can we get the 88 weight chart?  ok maybe i'm asking too much.

Offline alzado

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Re: article on touchweight
Reply #4 on: February 21, 2006, 05:51:57 PM
When I play with the keys on a Yamaha electric piano, I certainly sense the weighting, which may be a bit excessive.  But the action doesn't feel like a grand piano because I believe there's an irregularity in the feel of a piano key as the mechanism cycles.

This does not mean I could not play it, however.  Different is not necessarily "bad."

Offline gfiore

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Re: article on touchweight
Reply #5 on: February 21, 2006, 06:13:54 PM
 Kawai specifies a down weight of 53 grams for all upright models except the NS, US, and KL-70 which are 57 grams.  An uprights keys are also weighted differently than a grands. The grands keys are weighted at the front of the key, the upright at the rear.
 The best you can do as a consumer is play the piano and check for eveness of response. No piano will meet a given specification for for up/down weight at any given time. Things such as temp and humidity will affect the action parts causing bushings to swell increasing friction which will then increase the touch weight.
 In short, the touch weight can change somewhat from the factory until it is delivered to the dealrs show room.
 You must also take into account that each piano will feel different, even those of the same model.  Even slight differences in hammer size, friction of action parts, inertia from key leading, will cause differences in feel and touch weight.
 You also get what you pay for. Expensive grands/verticals coming from makers such as Bechstein, Fazioli, etc, will spend a greater majority of production time refining the action, touchweight, and voicing of their pianos.  Yamaha and Kawai, because of the cosistency in their manufacuturing processes and action designs, can produce a well regulated and consistently balanced action in less time than the more expensive makes, but it will not be perfect for the same reasons I mentioned above.
George Fiore  aka "Curry"
 Piano Technician serving the central New Jersey Area.
My piano- A 2004 Bosendorfer Model 214 #47,299 214-358

Offline pianistimo

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Re: article on touchweight
Reply #6 on: February 21, 2006, 06:32:18 PM
thank you so much for all the info!  i love my kawaii because it still feels like the touch is fairly even, although it needs some regulating for voicing and probably a little fixing.  but, if i ever go for a better piano, i will take your advice and look at bechstein and fazioli.  i'm more interested in the touch than the finish.

Offline iumonito

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Re: article on touchweight
Reply #7 on: February 21, 2006, 10:19:19 PM
www.pianofinders.com

click on 'educational'  and then scroll down to 'piano rebuilding' and click on 'touchweight.'
 i notice some pianos seem to have different weights on different keys - and thus mess up pianists technique right from the start.  should a person measure the weightedness of the keys going upt he keyboard.  how much more are the bass notes normally weighted?

BTW, just for clarification, you are supposed to have different weights on different keys.  Balck keys also lighter than white keys, and lower keys heavier than higher keys.

Technique is not about that.
Money does not make happiness, but it can buy you a piano.  :)

Offline pianistimo

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Re: article on touchweight
Reply #8 on: February 22, 2006, 03:18:07 PM
if a piano plays fairly evenly - you have more control over your playing and aren't irritated by keys that depress too fast (making sound too early) and/or sticky keys from the action being too tight.  i guess that's what i meant.

Offline intermezzi

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Re: article on touchweight
Reply #9 on: February 22, 2006, 08:37:31 PM
thanks!  now with kawaii uprights - is the action just tight - making it stiffer action?  or are the keys weighted?  it's a 1987 studio upright (forget the make/model - but i can get it).

I have heard too that actions on Kawai pianos tend to be stiffer, and having grown up on one, I have noticed it myself as well. Someone told me the many synthetic parts used in these pianos are what cause the stiff actions. Do any of you technicians know this to be the reason, and if so, why?

Offline gfiore

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Re: article on touchweight
Reply #10 on: February 22, 2006, 09:08:23 PM
 The ABS/carbon fiber action parts are not thre reason why. Kawai's specs for the downweight of their grands is a bit higher than other manufacturers. The new Millenium 111 actions feel much lighter because less lead(which causes higher inertia) is used to balance the touch weight, even though they are weighed to the same spec as in the past.
George Fiore  aka "Curry"
 Piano Technician serving the central New Jersey Area.
My piano- A 2004 Bosendorfer Model 214 #47,299 214-358

Offline cy_shuster

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Re: article on touchweight
Reply #11 on: February 24, 2006, 11:30:13 PM
I agree with George.  Measuring touchweight only gives you the static picture: what the forces are with the key at rest.  How the action feels when the keys are moving is something else.

Take a piece of lead and drop it.  If your finger is moving more slowly than the lead, then the lead is an assist, and makes the action feel light.  But if your finger is moving faster than gravity, the lead makes the key feel heavy, because of inertia.  Four or five keyleads are no help when you're trilling!

The ABS action parts in the latest Kawai action provide superior strength and stability with humidity changes, while having less inertia than maple actions.

--Cy--


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