Position Playing

[meli]

Hi, I am doing some reading on the different types of teaching reading for beginners, and I noticed that most teachers are not in favour of the multi-key approach (position playing) or don't encourage teaching it.  I've read that those students being taught this way cannot read music well, so I am just wondering what is so bad about this method? I'm sure it has its strengths, like being able to play tunes fast  but they will not be good readers in the long run  Just wondering why?

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

I am not a teacher, but a student. Position playing will help the beginner in knowing the basic chords. However he will not be able to play music that doesn't start on the tonic note. I think that the student needs to learn the notes and not the fingering. Hope this helps.

[m1469]

I don't have tons of experience with position playing, but the transfer students I have worked with, who were pianistically born () "reading" in positions, had several problems that were very frustrating to deal with.

They didn't know how to actually read the/a note, or remember any tools to figure it out.

They constantly turned to me and asked "what position is this in ?" .... meaning that, not only did they not know and couldn't seem to figure it out on their own, but the overall concept obviously did not make "reading" any easier for them or the teacher.

They often thought in terms of finger-numbers (and would get confused when positions changed) vs note-names.  So, I ask "what note is this ?"  they answer "5" .... hmmmm... a major pet peeve.

There is not really any such thing as set positions on the piano itself (as there is on other instruments with much more limited key figurations), except for within the very teaching of it.  At some point, it must be grown out of and has seemingly very little relevance to "the real world" when it comes to reading.  It is a crutch, at best.

The only repertoire that "positions" is relevant to, are within those lesson books which teach it.  So, at the point of learning repertoire that goes out of "positions", the student is completey (more) lost (unless another system is developed (but why not just start with the other system ?)).


Those are the things off the top of my head that have frustrated me.  However, I am still fairly new to teaching, and I am finding that no matter what the tactics used to help a student learn how to read, it is somewhat of an uphill climb (with back steps, too).  There is a need for true committment from the teacher, as well as the student (so, perhaps if I felt truly committed to positions, I would see more benefits from using it -- but I simply do not currently see the long-term benefit or logic, and therefore I am unwilling to commit). 

Because of the somewhat difficult nature of learning to read music, I have recently thought about using "positions" (a little more).  I will admit, I have one 6 year old whom I have told what the "middle c position" is, and it has been a mildly useful tool.  I certainly do not stress its use.   Because of the things I mentioned above, I haven't actually considered using it as my main way of helping students read music, and I don't foresee myself going this route anytime soon.

But, maybe I will change my mind


m1469

[luvslive]

I agree with m1469 on this one...it is just very difficult to move past positions once you've been using them.  I lean towards methods that use different fingers on different keys..this may mean that you'll have to start with "simpler" pieces, but continue building on the notes you know.  Also its good to have students realize that they will not always be in the middle of the keyboard but exploring high and low.  And lots of reinforcing what each key's name is...its sometimes suprising how long it takes some students to "find treble g" etc..

[timothy42b]

I'm not trying to disagree or argue, I'm just lost.

Aren't you always in some position?  Some are pretty common and recur a lot, especially in the same key, and some are used less frequently. 

I guess I didn't realize there was so much of a distinction between position and nonposition playing.  Unless you're using only one finger, of course. 

Or are you talking about not learning note names, just associating spots on the score with the keyboard? 

(Maybe positions would help me!  <g>)

[m1469]

Aren't you always in some position?  Some are pretty common and recur a lot, especially in the same key, and some are used less frequently. 

Which positions might these be, and what are their names ?  And perhaps you would provide an example of a piece ?

[timothy42b]

Which positions might these be, and what are their names ?  And perhaps you would provide an example of a piece ?

m1469,
Thanks.  Obviously I don't understand the terminology.  That leads to some possibility I have a fundamental wrong approach.  Or not, who knows?

On guitar, in first position my fingers fall on the first four frets.  Beginners stay there a long time, eventually you must use more positions.  Same is true of fretless instruments like violin, cello, etc. 

Okay, a piano piece.  I'll try.  Lesson piece last week was the familiar Clementi sonata first movement.  (you can see I'm a beginner)  Starts on C with both hands, hands don't have to move for the first few bars, but right hand has finger 2 on C, left hand finger 3.  Left hand plays the octave Gs without moving, so I'll call it G position.  Right hand I'll call B because the thumb would be there, though it stretches down for the G, then on second time through the them right hand shifts one note to the right, so I'll call that C.  Then right hand moves smoothly to the left doing that 2-4-2-4 thing, I don't call that a position until it lands on the C. 

Make sense?  Now neither I nor my teacher has ever said that's a C or that's a G position.  But if fingerings aren't marked I try to set my hand down where it can play as many notes without moving as possible, and isn't that a position?  Or do you mean something totally different? 

[m1469]

But if fingerings aren't marked I try to set my hand down where it can play as many notes without moving as possible, and isn't that a position?  Or do you mean something totally different? 

Yes, that is a "position" but more a hand position in relation to itself, than a position on the piano and finger assignments for each note (you can make a five-finger position anywhere on the piano, but you can only make a "middle c" position in one place -- I would prefer my students to first have knowledge of the former). 

And actually, one thing I would like to point out is that your deciding to grab as many notes into one hand reach as possible, is a result of a broader knowledge.  You see a bigger picture in order to make smaller decisions, plus, you already know how to actually read the music.

People starting in assigned positions, like "middle c" position (where both thumbs share middle c), generally only know these positions and therefore almost their entire knowledge of note-reading and the piano is fairly localized and limited to these places on the piano and staff (plus they are not really learning how to make decisions).  They actually can get quite lost when broadening beyond this place on both piano and staff, and often feel intimidated by what lay beyond.


m1469

[pianistimo]

maybe when a student is asking 'what position is this' - you have to start telling them that the correct question is really 'what key am i in?'  (unless it's a modern piece)  then - after having them look at the key signature - they will figure it out on their own.  minor keys can be slower to learn than major ones - but i try to follow the circle of fifths mostly and teach each key - by adding to the last one learned (so that the sharps and flats are added slowly).  i usually don't go for the most flats first - simply because it is an easier hand position. 

what i find the most useful for 8-10 yr old range is to explain that the C below middle C and the C above middle C are both three spaces down/up the staff.  they can get some bearing from that for a month until they learn all the notes in between (varies how long students take to learn it all - but usually a flashcard per day).  then - you tell them that two leger lines above and below the staff are also C.  this is a tremendous help to most students.  - giving them markers that are consistent and memorizable - and then filling in the notes in between. 

[timothy42b]

Ah, the light begins to dawn.  I think. 

Possibly there is a fundamental difference in thought, almost a paradigm shift, in reaching for a D with finger 2 BECAUSE that is the best way to get the D pressed down, and in pressing D BECAUSE it is finger 2's turn to play.  So it is the difference between learning keyboard geometry vs learning hand geometry, later to transfer to keyboard geometry. 

If I understood correctly, then the position playing would be a very limiting stage.  Though some beginners might be forced to pass through it on the path, depending on their background. 

[pianistimo]

yes.  i agree with the paradigm idea.  and, yet, beginning students can be easily distracted by sightreading issues.  personally, i think it is much better to do the smaller hand positions (which you can reach down with thumb or up with pinky one note).  i don't think it necessarily detracts from sightreading and actually helps solidify (the combo of fingering and notereading) what they are practicing with flashcards when they first learn the notes.

as i see it - reading notes and reading phonetically is very similar *not trying to start another argument really   with phonics you have 'nonsense' words you can put together (but they are still two, three, or four combos of consonants and vowels).  you are having the child memorize the individual notes=phonetic sounds and also to put them together.  and, as in a language - soon they start reading sentences and putting together creative things of their own. 

from my experience, the more you challenge a child TOO much at the beginning - the less you see proficiency in sightreading and more reliance on you to play something for them.  to become self-reliant means learning to read the music first and then putting the 'extras' in of notes that are not within a 'position.'  key recognition is really a good place to start before you talk about chromaticism and the odd notes here and there that are not part of the key. 

maybe i'm a 'classically' oriented teacher - and a more 'romantic' or 'modern' teacher would introduce chromaticism and a lot of hand movement first.  i tend to be focusing on building from the smallest elements to the larger very gradually - and not missing any steps regardless if my students are not playing as difficult of music as other students right away. 

[amanfang]

I grew up using Alfred Basic Piano Library which is a positional approach.  I do not use it with my students now, and yes, I am not a good sight-reader.  I will not completely blame my bad-reading on the positional approach, there are many factors, but I think it is one of the factors.  Positional approach is finding 5 consecutive notes (usually all white keys) and assigning a specific finger for each note.  So, in the "C position" RH is always "3 on E" and LH is also "3 on E."  So when I was reading positional music, I would see a G and think 5.  Or when I switched to G position, I saw a G and think 1.  It is to some degree an intervallic approach to reading, but once you start adding notes outside the position, students have a really hard time reaching out of it.  I have a transfer student who started with positional playing, and I switched him to Faber.  We started a piece with an e minor feel, and some chromatic notes.  While he could have "readjusted" his 5 finger comfort to start his thumb on e, he instead wanted to put 3 there, because "3 always plays e."  So as the music got up into the A and B-flat, he had some of the most interesting fingering I've seen in a while.  It will take some time to break the habit, but it can be done.

[pianistimo]

tetrachord form is my favorite 'position' for most young student until they are well into the first year.  that way 5432 2345 covers the entire scale.  there are many pieces you can play within that range as well as reaching with the pinky's one note to the left or right. 

but, agreed about different teaching having different positives and negatives.  i think the reluctance to use flashcards is sad - because you can put them up (5-7 per week) one at a time at each lesson and see if they can find the note quickly on the keyboard.  the weak ones, they take again the next week. 

that's the individual note =phonetic sound  -  then you have the little exercises that center around that note (two notes back and forth, and then three notes, and then four).  this centers you in one space on the keyboard and gets you used to playing those notes.  most commonly it is your second fingers to third and so forth. 

some method books progress too fast, so you have to make up and print out some little exercises to supplement (not finger exercises per se) as 'sight-reading' material.  the first couple of years is the ideal time to learn to sightread.  when kids are older - and haven't learned a lot of notes and where they are on the keyboard - they start leaning on their ear and you don't know if they are reading or 'winging' (except that the winging one's get nervous - as someone else said about not practicing).

anwya -no sense fighting about this issue as there are many ways to approach students and probably successful ways to teach that are different than mine.  having confidence is just as important to me as anything -so a parent that wants their child to play really difficult music right from the start isn't my type of student.  but, there are prodigies and those would more likely go to someone like my own teacher - or some on this forum - that deal with quick learners. 

most of the students i've dealt with are very smart - but they need the step-by-step approach to 'get rolling.'  the other kind of student won't get off the piano and experiments for hours.  that is how they become so fluent with the more advanced techniques from the beginning.  i'd say the majority of students just practice 1/2 hour to an hour. 

[pianistimo]

'a dozen a day' exercises are my daughter's favorites right now - but she also likes these songs (written in tetrachord form) and can be printed at 70% - and rewritten or white-outed to obtain the scores cleanly.  anyway,  they are helpful to print because thinking of all these songs takes time - and the ideas are already here.

www.iowacreativemusic.com/instrument/piano

also - when you teach the names of the notes you can also teach the rhythm. 

quarter
half-note
half-note-dot
whole-note-hold-it
(you can also use 'tie-it-again' or 'tie-it-once-again'  depending on the rhythm)

rest
half-rest
half-rest-rest
whole-rest-hold-it

[kriskicksass]

I teach out of Faber, and they have a position approach for the beginning. To counteract this, every time they introduce a position, I make the student learn the scale. I have one student now who knows about 15 of the 24 scales and plays them with a metronome just like I do (except I play them at sixteenths to about 144, and she plays them at eighths at about 80 to the quarter, lol). She's my best student, and none of my students know the scales like she does, but if my other students were as gifted as she is I'd have a great studio of beginners.
As for my other students, I just cross out the position drawings in the book and cross out the fingerings. Nothing makes me happier than seeing my students make a mistake because they were stretching across the keys rather than trying to stay in a position.

[prettypianoplaying]

what is position playing?