fast scale in chopin nocturne

[term]

I'm new, so first: hello Forum =)

Im currently working on chopins nocturne in c# minor, but i have a problem with the fast scale near the end, the one with 35 notes. I tried different approaches and what seems to work for me is to move the fingers in a way that i somehow pull the keys (first a b c# d#) and then switch rapidly to e f# g# and so on (i hope it's clear what i mean ). I feel like this could also work with very fast speed but i'm not sure ... I read some threads in this forum about how to play such fast scales, so i worked on switching rapidly between the chords a b c# d# and e f# g#...now i have the problem that i can manage to switch between 2 chords fast enough, but i cant switch between the chords for the whole scale up and down...i always miss some keys at least after 3 chords, most times after 2.
As soon as i try to "slow down" these chords i mess up when switching and missing keys, or it sounds uneven.

I practised many hours for 2 or 3 days now and i dont want to waste my time practising just one silly scale without really making some progress.
Is that the right way to practise that scale? What could i improve? Any advice would be helpul =)

PS: Maybe i should mention that before practising that scale i had no idea how thumb over works, but i suppose i somehow figured it out

[lilypiano]

when I first started learning that scale, I played d#,c#, b(starting from the top of the scale), and a  very quickly starting with my fourth finger.  Then I'd play g#, f# and e separately the same way starting with my third finger. Then practice one whole octave that way.   I think doing thatgives you a solid feel for the scale.   I just practiced the whole thing after that until it got fast enough.  I don't know any other tricks to make it faster.  It just got better at it the more I did it. 

[roflman05]

I played that piece a while ago and still do sometimes.

Things you can do:

Make sure the scale is smooth and play it slower if you need. Dont sacrifice eveness for speed. (thats what I think)
Play the scale three, four, five etc. notes at a time , to make sure all transitions sounds good.
Use the metronome when playing and challenge yourself. I think it helped playing fast with some errors and then slow down and it became easier.
About thumb over , I think it comes kind of natural in the emaj/c#min scale. At least I dont think about it when playing. Practice the transitions between thumb and 3,4.
Change angle of your wrist , not much. I want to turn my wrist (right hand) a bit to the left when playing descending scales.  try it ascending too.

Dont expect to get up to top speed at no time. I dont know how long youve played but,
I became insane because of that scale.  And now, months after playing that piece I can still play that scale pretty good. It will get stuck in your muscle memory.

In the beginning and at the end of the scale i play a little slower.
Experiment in different tempos and rythms to make the scale solid in your hand.

I didnt have a teacher when playing that one, so Ive been looking at the forums for the answers.

Good luck

[term]

@lilypiano: I'll try that, thanks

@roflman: I actually did it that way, i practised the transitions etc..i just didn't use the metronome.
I wonder if practising less, but over a longer period of time would be better than sitting at the piano 2,3 hours a day to get that done?
Im playing for about 1 1/2 years now, never practised scales regularly...but i cant imagine it takes 1 week or more to finish that O_o

[roflman05]

I think you're right, practice over a long time is better.

I don't know about the 1 week to finish the scale. I think you must keep practicing the scale(scales) regularly to maintain the speed and eveness.

And since you havent practiced scales regularly (like me) just keep practicing and give it some time. When I played the Chopin prelude no24 op28 there is a fast A-minor melodic scale. At first i couldnt pull it off at all , used the wrong fingering and all. Then I changed fingering and it got worse, but I stuck to it. Now its the scale I can play fastest. So keep up the work!

If it doesnt get any better , keep looking for solutions.

[lilypiano]

I wouldn't worry so much about finishing that scale within a certain time frame.  It is just a scale, but it's also supposed to be played very quickly, lightly, and fluidly. I think it's a relatively difficult thing to do.  Just be patient.  It sounds great once you get good at it.  It's worth the effort.

[rockitman31]

What's difficult about this run is that it is supposed to be played at pp.

Playing fast and soft is tough. 

[chopinfan_22]

The fingers must be very light.

[techlogik]

I came on the forum today because I am working on this same piece and was lookin for nearly the exact same information.  Funny how people get hung on the same thing.

I haven't seen anything posted for you though that is helping.  I am getting hung on the first faster run 15th measure.  Particularly because it doesn't follow the scale C#M scale, the D is natural and the E is sharped.  So you go from the top: C#, D, B, A, G#, F#, E#, D and so forth, the first octave it goes slow with the left hand, about 2 notes on the right hand per 1 note on the left, then doubles to 3-4 notes.  It is where it then increases speed on the downward I fall apart because my fingering is messed up and lack of skill/speed and efficiency.

I particularly have an issue when I play the F# (Right hand 2nd finger, then E# with thumb that it what I have figured is best), then jumping to the D natural, which I naturally want to hit with my 3rd right finger. 

So, I am really struggling on how to run this down at the second octave part for the next 2 octaves and increase speed with good fingering.  Maybe need to develop a better TO method to get my fourth right finger onto the D.

My sheet music continually shows on each 3 note section that the middle note is the 3rd finger.  So for most of that run, it appears only the 4,3,2 fingers are used, rapidly.  Maybe I need to try the Chord method and breaking it into a fast run and try developing a good TO method for this using just the 4,3,2 fingers repeated.  Now that I think about that, it would work using those and just have to TO the thing...?

I will keep plugging away at it.  I need to experiment more and just work on the run and speed/fingering, frustrating like you said, working for a week or two on something and not seeminly making progress.  I find if I get hung up on something like this, I usually try to attack it first thing when I sit down to work on a piece, and try to work on it a few minutes.  Then move onto the next sections memorizing and moving forward with a piece.  Otherwise, you will never finish the piece.  I start back at the beginning and work on perfecting things I can do well and feeling/expression of the piece.  Then I will hit the difficult section again.  I guess it is something psychological I do to keep my spirits up and motivate me to hit the hard sections again.  You know, get a victory or two under your belt with the piece in several sections, then struggle for a bit with the hard section, then back and forth...seems to work for me mostly.

I am guessing the fingering the scale at the end are going to be different than what I am struggling with.

Would like to hear how you do the 15th measure though.  Thanks.

I think learning the broken chord TO method is probably the way to go, just work it smooth and develop the technique and ramp it up, you will eventually get it.

Good luck.

I'm new, so first: hello Forum =)

Im currently working on chopins nocturne in c# minor, but i have a problem with the fast scale near the end, the one with 35 notes. I tried different approaches and what seems to work for me is to move the fingers in a way that i somehow pull the keys (first a b c# d#) and then switch rapidly to e f# g# and so on (i hope it's clear what i mean ). I feel like this could also work with very fast speed but i'm not sure ... I read some threads in this forum about how to play such fast scales, so i worked on switching rapidly between the chords a b c# d# and e f# g#...now i have the problem that i can manage to switch between 2 chords fast enough, but i cant switch between the chords for the whole scale up and down...i always miss some keys at least after 3 chords, most times after 2.
As soon as i try to "slow down" these chords i mess up when switching and missing keys, or it sounds uneven.

I practised many hours for 2 or 3 days now and i dont want to waste my time practising just one silly scale without really making some progress.
Is that the right way to practise that scale? What could i improve? Any advice would be helpul =)

PS: Maybe i should mention that before practising that scale i had no idea how thumb over works, but i suppose i somehow figured it out