Bernhard is right about exercises

[stevehopwood]

Techinical training is essential, whether one likes it or not.

This is true. You do not need to inflict technical exercises\scales on your pupils in order to do so.

All it takes is grabbing their interest. The added practise they do will ensure technical development.

Steve 

[debussy symbolism]

Some technical excercises are fun in themselves. I personally like doing them and knowing that my technique improves makes me want to do them .

[stevehopwood]

Some technical excercises are fun in themselves. I personally like doing them and knowing that my technique improves makes me want to do them .

If you became one of my students, DS, I would actively encourage you to practise them. Anything that leads to more practise is a good thing.

Chances are, though, that I would have shown you a better, richer, more satisfying way to acquiring a good technique. I would have trained your technique without you being aware of it. You would have been so immersed in wonderful music that you would not have needed exercises.

Steve 

[debussy symbolism]

Which excercises do you use, because my teacher has given me a sure whole lot of them, such as arpeggios, scales, chords, broken arpeggios, short, long, 11 chord patterns, diminished 7th chord excercises for finger independance, Schmitt, Czerny, Wieck you name it. That is of course just a part of our technique "repertoire". As of now (1 year of playing) I learned the Mozart's Ah vous direz je maman variations, Alla Turca, lot of Schumann pieces, Le coucou by Daquin and a lot more. I am halfway through Beethoven's Rage over a lost penny, polishing Moszkowski's g minor etude op 72(Will start the first one next lesson), starting Schubert impromptu no4.

[debussy symbolism]

Concerning the Mozart's variations, all are at speed except for the last one. Funny thing is that I nearly accomplished it, but haven't secured it so during my student's recital we didn't do that one but went to the sixth one as the final one. Bummer.

[stevehopwood]

Which excercises do you use, because my teacher has given me a sure whole lot of them, such as arpeggios, scales, chords, broken arpeggios, short, long, 11 chord patterns, diminished 7th chord excercises for finger independance, Schmitt, Czerny, Wieck you name it.

I do not use any of this stuff. Really, it is not necessary. Just play the music; this will give you everything you need.

I have played some of the most formidable concertos ever written. I developed the technique to do so by playing music. This is how I teach my own students technique - by playing music.

Music offers everything.

Steve 

[debussy symbolism]

I do not use any of this stuff. Really, it is not necessary. Just play the music; this will give you everything you need.

I have played some of the most formidable concertos ever written. I developed the technique to do so by playing music. This is how I teach my own students technique - by playing music.

Music offers everything.

Steve 

Of course we work on the music and the technique with in the music, not just the excercises of course.  My lessons are approx 3 hours long, sometimes 4 and often twice a week. We spend the majority on the music of course.

[debussy symbolism]

I forgot to mention that we also play polyphony of course too. Bach invention and preludes.

[stevehopwood]

I forgot to mention that we also play polyphony of course too. Bach invention and preludes.

My kids get half an hour a week with me. Most of them practise for less than you have lessons (that goes back to your previous posting).

Bach represents 'real' music. Play him and excercises truly are irrelevent.

Steve 

[debussy symbolism]

My kids get half an hour a week with me. Most of them practise for less than you have lessons (that goes back to your previous posting).

Bach represents 'real' music. Play him and excercises truly are irrelevent.

Steve 

Of course Bach helps greatly with thinking and technique, I wouldn't dismiss excercises as irrelevant simply because...they help me. I feel the progress, as does my teacher. I however do not object to practicing meticulously because I love to practice. For example in the Moszkowski etude, I practice it every way including holding down a note whilst repeating the next one and so on. Then I do it by alternating the notes. I know that my explanations sound rediculous, the excercises ensure stability, good finger action and speed.

[m1469]

Funnily enough, I have never actually done too much in the way of "exercises".  I spent a period of about 6 months of my life doing them, and I noticed some marked improvment, but looking back, I attribute that improvement to a couple of main things that really have nothing to do with the fact that I was playing "exercises".

Other than that, I feel my technical level is advancing desireably without them in the standard form, and I almost never have my students do excersizes just for the sake of exercises.  I have had some students play some Bach, and that does indeed limber up the fingers... however, I want to stress that it does not magically produce the deisred affect without specific attention to certian types of sound (that require certain activity from the fingers and certain types of ear training... which trains the entire piano playing apparatus and prepares the student for other works). 

Just felt like adding my two cents.


m1469

[stevehopwood]

I developed my own technique m1469's way. I have performed Rachmaninov and Brahms concertos during my career - this is how I know that exercises are unneccessary.

Steve 

[chocolatedog]

Morning Steve!

I came from the other camp - Tankard, Hanon, Dohnanyi etc, - which were all prescribed by my piano teacher (concert pianist) and they certainly did me a lot of good. I still occasionally use them to warm my fingers up before practising pieces but if my fingers seem warm and supple enough I won't bother. I also practise hanon in other keys to give my hands exercise in slightly awkward hand positions. And if I'm short on time and haven't got the time 'to get stuck into' the piece I'm currently working on, I might just play through some exercises (yes, I suppose a bit automatically) just to exercise my fingers.......

[stevehopwood]

Morning Steve!

Ehup, CD 

[chocolatedog]

Ehup, CD 

Hey ho Steve!

[leahcim]

Now let me ask you, can you describe all the ways that it can be used? I doubt it

Absolutely, because there are far more uses for paper than the max post size would allow me to list.

You may as well say "Can you list all the integers? No? Ergo I've made some point"

Note my posts are made as someone who is a beginner, not as someone who is a teacher. However, I can read the posts from other teachers.

I did point out to you in the other thread that whatever you say as an experienced teacher, I can find another, perhaps equally experienced teacher who will say something different, even the opposite. i.e The net result is that the experience counts for nothing.

Don't get your knickers in a twist with what I just said though - all I'm saying is that if one great teacher says "No need for Hanon" and another great teacher says "Use Hanon, it's essential" then collectively they have no better answer to the question than if you just threw a coin in the air.

At least until you said "Why?" and they said "Well, I just threw a coin in the air" [although compared with some of the "because the other guy doesn't know what he was talking about" and other stuff you might read when you ask, it's not that bad

That's why there is debate on these topics.

For a beginner trying to find a teacher and learn that's frustrating, because you don't know who to believe - and Hanon is just one example. There are countless others.

I also doubt you would know how to apply Hanon to a developing student because you have determined it cannot be used.

Not strictly true. I haven't said it cannot be used, it's sheet music composed for the piano after all, you can learn to play it just as much as you can learn to play anything else.

If you read my point it's that "how to play" is more important than "what to play" - you know that's true, because you hope  to charge folk to teach them how to play whereas any shopkeeper or website can sell them what to play and as I've shown above, if the shop keeper gives you Hanon or tells you to avoid it, they are saying the same thing as some great teacher does.

But how to play is far more difficult a problem. Hanon can't teach you "balance..." or whatever other aspects you'd list under "how to play" - however, someone who can teach it, might use Hanon to do it. imo attributing that, even if it's successful, to Hanon is flawed, and I think the teachers that don't use Hanon show that. However to me, both focus on Hanon as though it matters when it's just sheet music. [perhaps partly because of the blurb about "fingers high" though which is largely dismissed by everyone afaiaa]

I guess my opinion is - if I go and buy Hanon without reading anything else then I'm reading his bollocks at the front....but if I realise that and go and buy Hanon and ignore that stuff, then I'm still likely to be playing Hanon incorrectly...if I realise that and find a teacher, then as Hanon is dead it won't be him that helped me achieve balance and so on, I'll have gone past the point where what to play matters, but if the teacher wants to attribute it to Hanon and not to them, so long as their bill reflects that, there's probably no point arguing

But why do I want to offer debate for the experienced pianist to study Hanon?? Just because I offer no debate for it does that take away from the fact that Hanon is essential for the Beginner?

No you misunderstand. Since your argument is only for the absolute beginner I was just pointing out that there's no need for a counter argument to consider beyond that early stage.

i.e So long as one person, who isn't an absolute beginner exists, who didn't use Hanon, then Hanon being essential is clearly flawed.

Others however, including Hanon, see Hanon differently and they would argue from the pov of an experienced pianist playing it.

So the point wasn't that you should have made an argument about experienced pianists using it, it's just that because you didn't it's trivial to see that your argument is flawed thanks to the large number of experienced pianists born before Hanon released the exercises, and those who followed after him that didn't use it.

[mike_lang]

Hanon is not essential - there are a hundred and one ways to develop technique.  Clearly, technique can be developed through both pieces and through exercises.  One of my teachers at Indiana taught technique through pieces, not scales and finger exercises - Evelyne Brancart is known at the school and abroad for her technique and has had many successful proteges.

On the other hand, my teacher in Chicago, Emilio del Rosario, teaches children etudes from the very beginning - he does not use Hanon, but he has his students do scales (arpeggi, chords, voicing, thirds, sixths, octaves, etc.) every week, as well as 1 or 2 etudes each week (Czerny, Moscheles, Moskowski, Chopin, Liszt, Debussy, progressively).  I can attest that through this method he has had 12 year olds playing Mephisto Waltz, 13 year olds playing Petroushka, 15 year olds playing Prokofiev 2nd, etc. 

I think it is useless to condemn exercises - some people respond to them and some don't.  If you have a fascination with technique on such an isolated level and can apply it, then exercises will be helpful.  If you are bored with isolated technique, playing Dohnanyi, Hanon, Brahms 51, etc. will be fruitless.

I do not think that Hanon is essential, but certainly if one has the curiosity and knows exactly what the goal of each exercise is, then it is possible to reap great rewards.  Again, however, it is not only the Hanon book that can provide these benefits.

[debussy symbolism]

Hanon is not essential - there are a hundred and one ways to develop technique.  Clearly, technique can be developed through both pieces and through exercises.  One of my teachers at Indiana taught technique through pieces, not scales and finger exercises - Evelyne Brancart is known at the school and abroad for her technique and has had many successful proteges.

On the other hand, my teacher in Chicago, Emilio del Rosario, teaches children etudes from the very beginning - he does not use Hanon, but he has his students do scales (arpeggi, chords, voicing, thirds, sixths, octaves, etc.) every week, as well as 1 or 2 etudes each week (Czerny, Moscheles, Moskowski, Chopin, Liszt, Debussy, progressively).  I can attest that through this method he has had 12 year olds playing Mephisto Waltz, 13 year olds playing Petroushka, 15 year olds playing Prokofiev 2nd, etc. 

I think it is useless to condemn exercises - some people respond to them and some don't.  If you have a fascination with technique on such an isolated level and can apply it, then exercises will be helpful.  If you are bored with isolated technique, playing Dohnanyi, Hanon, Brahms 51, etc. will be fruitless.

I do not think that Hanon is essential, but certainly if one has the curiosity and knows exactly what the goal of each exercise is, then it is possible to reap great rewards.  Again, however, it is not only the Hanon book that can provide these benefits.

I will have to agree with you on the notion of mindset. One can run through scales whilst thinking about something else, and will get none done, while one who thinks about doing the scales correctly, will far benefit from them.

[nicco]

You can say what you want about Hanon, but nonetheless it does build finger strength.

[mike_lang]

You can say what you want about Hanon, but nonetheless it does build finger strength.

It's true, but there are a lot more direct ways to do it.

[stevehopwood]

More interesting, too.

Steve