Using Scale Speed as a Basis for Choosing Repertoire

[visionsofnighttime]

When choosing a new piece, do you only try pieces where the fastest passages are at or below the speed at which you can play your scales? Or arpeggios? Or half scale speed? If you look at advanced compositions (that contain fast runs), they tend to have passagework that is about half the speed of the fastest runs.

For instance, a composition will often have 16th notes everywhere and occasional runs or arpeggios of 32nd notes. If such a composition was marked "presto", in order to play it you would need to have your scales up to 320 (or m.m. = 160 with 8 notes/beat = 21 notes/sec = 3 octaves/sec).

In my mind, the typical "fast run" is 64th notes at m.m. = 80 -> scales at 320. If you can play scales at this speed, how many years did it take you to get there from whatever slower speed? And how/how often did you practice them?

I want to eventually be able to play that 1st run in Hungarian Rhapsody no. 2 that has 6 notes per 16th note at andante (m.m. = 60?) -> 96th notes -> scales must be at 360 (m.m. = 180 with 8 notes per beat). Is this realistic if you practice scales every day for a few years?

[semme]

who says, you should play a piece exacly this way and no other. make the piece your own. interprete it yourself. just because your scales arent fast enough for a piece you want to play shouldnt hinder you from playing it.

[visionsofnighttime]

You're right semme. My post may look like I'm trying to turn all pianists into "mere technicians" but I'm not saying you have to play andante at such a speed or presto at such a speed. I just like to have some numbers to shoot for to get a general idea of whether I can attempt a piece.

Rabbit Trail -> I have a recording of Chopin Nocturne in c# minor where he slows down on the fastest run and I don't like how it ruins the tempo.

[steve jones]

I must admit, I do get scared away from some pieces due to fast scales. But I am working on my scales so I dont have to do this so much.

The Op27 Nocturne is a fine example of this. Also, the Op69 No1 Waltz has a nasty chromatic run that I find quite intimidating.

But Im getting there, yesterday I was scaling a RH two octave B Major at 180bpm (oh yes, they'll make a speed demon out of me yet!).

SJ

[rimv2]

In my mind, the typical "fast run" is 64th notes at m.m. = 80 -> scales at 320. If you can play scales at this speed, how many years did it take you to get there from whatever slower speed? And how/how often did you practice them?

Years?

Try days or months.

Building speed is easy and can be gained with matter of hours or days.

Coordinating the speed is a different matter. This take day to months, depending on how you go about it. Years is you do it the way most are taught.

Ahm not speaking inspirational psycho babble either.

[steve jones]

Are you serious?

Playing scales at 320bpm is impossible. If you can play them at over 200bpm you are doing VERY well.

Timewise, this ofcourse depends on how good you are already, and how much focus you are putting on this alone. Im sure that you could greatly improve scaling speed if you really went to town on it over a 6 month period.

But 320bpm is out of the question. If you can find me a pianist who can scale this fast, then the next round is one me!

SJ

[abell88]

I'm not sure everyone is using the same reference here...bpm is meaningless without saying what kind of note is the beat and what kind of note you are playing.

For example:
80 bpm, quarter note is the beat, playing 16th notes = 320 notes per minute.
80 bpm, half note is the beat, playing quarter notes = 160 notes per minute.
160 bpm, quarter note is the beat, playing 16th notes = 640 notes per minute.
160 bpm, eighth note is the beat, playing 16th note = 320 notes per minute.
320 bpm, quarter note is the beat, playing quarter notes = 320 notes per minute
320 bpm, sixteenth note is the beat, playing quarter  notes = 80 notes per mninute.

I suggest notes per minute as your term of reference.

[steve jones]

It looks as though he is talking about semi quavers at 320bpm. This would equate to 64th notes (semi demi hemi quavers???) at 80bpm.

Again, I highly doubt there are many people alive who could scale this fast outside of a glissando.

That is like 3 octaves up and down, in 2.2 seconds!  It takes me that long to find middle C!!! 

SJ

[visionsofnighttime]

Yes I am talking about semiquavers (16th notes) at 320pbm = hemidemisemiquavers (64th notes) at 80 bpm = 1280 notes per minute = 3 octaves per second = set metronome to 160 and play 8 notes per beat, so there is no confusion.  Make a midi of it. You know you've heard people play that fast without doing a glissando. rimv2 says this can be achieve in a few months. Interesting.

[steve jones]

Mate, the first thing I did was make a midi of it. And no, I dont think anyone on this earth could learn to do that in a matter of months.

Maybe there is some circus freak in China who can scale that fast, but he is not on this forum today, and he certainly didnt learn to do it in a 'few hours'.

If this were possible, why is it we're even having this discussion? If scales can be mastered to absolutely break neck speeds with minimal time commitment, then why are they the stumbling block of many a student pianist?

But as always, I am open to evidence to the contrary. If someone can post an mp3 of them scaling at 320bpm, then that would be a good start.

SJ

[steve jones]

Lads, C Major, 4 octaves, 16th notes, 320bpm:

https://download.yousendit.com/EB3F55095C5DCF9C

The sequencer plays it in just over 2.5 seconds. If ANYONE can do this, I will tip my hat. If they can then teach me to do it in 'months', then I will buy them a BigMac Meal with the option of supersizing!

SJ

[rimv2]

Mate, the first thing I did was make a midi of it. And no, I dont think anyone on this earth could learn to do that in a matter of months.

Maybe there is some circus freak in China who can scale that fast, but he is not on this forum today, and he certainly didnt learn to do it in a 'few hours'.

If this were possible, why is it we're even having this discussion? If scales can be mastered to absolutely break neck speeds with minimal time commitment, then why are they the stumbling block of many a student pianist?

But as always, I am open to evidence to the contrary. If someone can post an mp3 of them scaling at 320bpm, then that would be a good start.

SJ

Forgive me.

Ah thought this freak was talking about 160 to the 16th . But clearly his/her madness was not to be taken any other way but literally.

But ah still love ya.

[timothy42b]

What would a reasonable goal be?  Sixteenth note scale at quarter = 160, maybe? 

Would that let you play 90% of what you want to?  I'd settle for 90%. 

[steve jones]

Forgive me.

Ah thought this freak was talking about 160 to the 16th . But clearly his/her madness was not to be taken any other way but literally.

But ah still love ya.

Mate, I just read my post back and it sounded way harsher than intended! Apologies if it came across that way.

Yeah, you are quite right that 160bpm scales are well within the range on the student given then right practice.

SJ

[rimv2]

Mate, I just read my post back and it sounded way harsher than intended! Apologies if it came across that way.

None necessary. I realize the absurdity of 16th at 320.

Just thinking about it make meh crack up.

And Ahz joking about the freak thing (hence da smiliez)

[steve jones]

What would a reasonable goal be?  Sixteenth note scale at quarter = 160, maybe? 

Would that let you play 90% of what you want to?  I'd settle for 90%. 

Tim,

I think that 200bpm is a good goal to have, but 160bpm is still very respectable. Czerny's speed exercises are mostly around the 200bpm mark, so I think if you can manage these, you are pretty much covered.

Then again, some of the scales in Liszt's music are so fast!

SJ

[visionsofnighttime]

Look out for Rudenko! Apparently, he can play very clear scales at about 480 bpm (~30 notes per second) . Check this post:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,10363.msg121558.html#msg121558

Peace.

[steve jones]

Lol. yeah right 

I think someone is pulling your pub my friend. Either that, or you are pulling mine? 

SJ