Second Greatest composer for Piano after Beethoven

[nsvppp]

It's me who voted for Franck. And I still seem to be the only one.  I was very pleased that he was included in the list. I must admit that I voted him because of his work for piano solo. But can you imagine works that equal the Prelude, Fuga et Choral or the 3rd Coral? They are concerts on their own. You don't need an orchestra anymore.

cheers
nsvppp

[citrine_peridot]

interesring topic...I mean the title

i vote for I don't agree cause Chopin in the best..imo

[crazy for ivan moravec]

but the point of this thread is based on the title
"Second Greatest composer for the Piano after Beethoven." Catch the "after" beethoven. My point is that he is not the Best of the Greatest Composers - but never did I say he was not great.

please read the first post by presto agitato:

Beethoven wrote the best music for piano ever. That is the opinion of musicologists, teachers, concert pianists, conductors, mélomanes etc.

So , whos the best after him?

This not a matter of tastes. Example: I like more Glinka than Chopin, but i must accept that Chopin wrote better PIANO music than Glinka. Do you get the point?

After listening piano music for about ten years my conclusion is: Schubert is the best after Beethoven. His wonderful melodies are the main reason i choose him.  WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF HE WOULD NOT HAVE DIED SO YOUNG?

[crazy for ivan moravec]

I certainly defend your right to express your opinion. But the whole point of free speech is that whatever you say will be judged, argued, and responded to by others.

true... for what is an opinion if not to be discussed?

[alejo_90]

Topics referring to personal music tastes are always controversial. I don't see the point abut stating that Beethoven is the best according to someone, because another someone will come and flame you because he thinks he wasn't the greatest composer for the piano, etc, etc.

Then, according to my personal tastes I do think Beethoven was the greatest for the piano, there's a something in his music that makes him incomparable to others (Imho).
The second for me would be without doubts Chopin.

Best
Alex

[crazy for ivan moravec]

i think the beauty of it lies in the discussions. that's why we have this piano forum!:) in a discussion, a lot of things come out, information, realizations, opinions, etc, and even emotions. so, not only do we get to talk about the topic, we also learn from reading others' posts which includes side comments and infos (may be out of nowhere), whether it may be replying to your post or not.

of course, respecting our personal tastes is always a given. so then let's have a debate!:)  the only thing we lack here are judges. but even in debates, there really is no winner because the jury still tend to be subjective and debaters are pretty much set with their beliefs/personal tastes. maybe there will only be a winner IF a member of a party suddenly changes his/her mind and shifts conviction/beliefs agreeing to the other party.

those who believe in beethoven's piano music to be best should stick to their conviction, and so with chopin fans. there will be no winner, but an endless opportunity of thinking, analyzing, realizing, then replying... or sometimes, agreeing and compromising.

and so why am i talking about this!?!?! hehe

but one thing i believe in.... CHOPIN IS THE BEST!!! hehehe.

[soliloquy]

Xenakis was the best piano composer.  This is the opinion of every single musician, musicologist, theory professor, piano tuner, violin builder, composer, teacher, conductor, genious, supermodel, millionaire, billionaire, professional poker player, bartender, alien from the future and dog.

In all reality though, he really might be.  He is and will most likely remain the best Stochastic composer, not to mention the most innovative composer of the 19th, 20th and 21st century with the POSSIBLE exceptions of Arnold Schoenberg, Henry Cowell and John Cage.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

by any chance, are you a philosophy major?

[soliloquy]

No.  Shall we make out?

[crazy for ivan moravec]

er, no. haha

[soliloquy]

I shall now stalk you.

[alejo_90]

Wasn't Xenakis that guy with an ugly hole in the cheek? I haven't heard a single composition by him in my whole life.

Xenakis was the best piano composer.  This is the opinion of every single musician, musicologist, theory professor, piano tuner, violin builder, composer, teacher, conductor, genious, supermodel, millionaire, billionaire, professional poker player, bartender, alien from the future and dog.

Lol
No, seriously, is that the opinion of every single musician, musicologist, etc... or YOURS?

Best
Alex

[emmdoubleew]

That may be your opinion, but most people (educated on the topic) find that much of Liszt's music lacks any real depth and emotion behind it, and was composed mostly for show.  And presto agitato is incorrect for saying that musicologists, composers, pianists, etc. generally find Beethoven to be the greatest composer?  That's what I thought too. 

The only ppl i've ever heard say that are newbies who want to seem sophisticated.

[nicco]

I was talking to my teacher a bit about this, and he mentioned that, purely piano-technically Beethoven could use much more creative and different sound, for example where Liszt would write a tremolo, beethoven could come up with something much more innoventive, like in waldstein 1st movement.

Btw, have you heard about the time beethoven was in a piano-showdown against some pianist (dont remember), and they played eachothers compositions until beethoven become so angry that his opposition was actually quite good, so he turned the sheet music he had in front of him upside-down and made a fugue of the notes? Now thats genius 

[bachapprentice]

You mean Second greatest composer after Bach!

It all revolves around BACH the Greatest Composer of all time. Were do you think Beethoven got his insperation and composing knowledge from?

[da jake]

Bach and Schubert are a class above Beethoven.

[presto agitato]

You mean Second greatest composer after Bach!

It all revolves around BACH the Greatest Composer of all time. Were do you think Beethoven got his insperation and composing knowledge from?

What i have read, is that Beethoven used to play both books of TWTC, because his teacher (an organist, dont remember his name at this moment) forced him to do so.

Beethoven´s favorite composer was Handel.

Make you conclusions....

[da jake]

LOL. Bach makes Handel look n00btacular.

[pies]

Other - Schoenberg.

[steveie986]

This thread is sheer stupidity. It's like kids arguing about who's better, Michael Jordan or Larry Bird. This is music - it's art, not sports where players have ratings and vie for MVP awards.

[musik_man]

LOL. Bach makes Handel look n00btacular.

Please, Handel owns Bach.

[ail]

Beethoven's masterpieces consist of Concerto's, Sonata's, Bagatelles, Rondo's,  Symphonies, and Orchestral pieces. Now I'd got to say that's a lot of music for someone who lived almost twice as long as Chopin. However, Concerto's should rarely be played without accompaniment. Furthermore, Symphonies and Orchestral pieces should be taken out of the picture since we are discussing the strictly the piano. As a result, do a little elimination and most (if not all) of what he wrote were Sonata's, bagtelles, and Rondo's.

[...]

Chopin and various others on the other hand (Mendelson, Listz), elaborate more fully on the Piano's potential (waltz's, sonata's, ballades, scherzo's, etudes, mazurkas, polaniases, and preludes), and not as a instrument that is used to accompany others. Listz perhaps of all people illustrate the virtuosic potential of the Piano. Even Mozart, although not as successfully as Liszt tried to show the Piano's capability. But Beethoven, great with his symphonies, did not focus on making the Piano a MASTER INSTRUMENT, but as a mere accompaniment to the rest of the orchestra.

Oh, come on, now. The piano was Beethoven's instrument. He took it from a fragile thing and forced its development to nowadays piano.
And that was surely his preferred instrument, the one he played best. Remember, he was a virtuoso pianist before becoming a composer. He wrote his pieces firstly to perform and when he grew mature, and deaf, he began composing for himself for the sake of music. But piano was always his preferred means of expression, for he could play the piano like few in his time. Take on the other hand violin, which when he was deaf was a nightmare for those that would accompany him.
Besides, as someone said here long ago, he really used the full keyboard and knew very well how to take it all from the grave sounds, some thing that Mozart didn't do best.

As for classification, Mozart and Haydn are classical, no doubt, but Beethoven is no longer on the EARLY-classic. He makes the transition for the romantic, although his early works are classical. But compare his 5th concerto with his 1st and note the evolution in style and density.

As for masterpieces, it's not only about Sonatas. Take his variations, Rondo a Capricio, Andante Favori, Fantasia Op.77. Frankly, I never heard his bagatelles played (I'm not including Fur Elise in the bagatelles because that's an albumblatt, if I'm not mistaken, and there are sets of bagatelles named as such).

He might not have etudes (at least I've never heard of one) but he has done some other things than just Sonatas and Rondo's. He did dances too, waltzes, ecossaises even Polonaises, and what is a Mazurka and a Waltz if not a dance? Chopin made ones inspired on the folklore of his own country... so did Beethoven. Surely, you're not expecting all non-polish composer to go writing a Mazurka, are you? Why would he?
I know I may be sounding narrow-minded, but the point is that the transformation of folk music to classical takes time and usually a composer uses as material what he knows best. So in European courts in the time of Beethoven, there was a different kind of dances which he used. Chopin used what he knew best than others: the music of his country, and made it popular. True he made Polonsaises, but perhaps that was already popular and serious outside Poland. There was a long tradition of doing dances "à la...." (Italians, Scottish, German, Polish, perhaps even Spanish), but may be Mazurkas at the time were still not considered serious.

Now, as for Beethoven's sonatas and masterpieces. I was surprised to see so many people in this forum (not just this thread) mention the 3rd movement of Moonlight. I've always liked it, but I don't consider it by far his best work. First all, I find the 1st movement much more seductive, and in a style similar to the 3rd, I think any movement of Appassionata is much more demanding, complex and satsifying.
Then we have his sonatas.

I've been always a fan of Beethoven. For me, Beethoven is the best composer of music. But I've always been divided regarding piano music specifically since I knew Chopin. And then I heard a recital of Chopin music, by a pianist that recorded the integral of his piano solo works. And in that recital, featuring perhaps one CD from the whole series, there were few moments that carried me away. I love Chopin's well-know pieces, but I understood then and there that he's also got minor things that made me think: Truly, Chopin is great, but he can be so boring at times. I'll stick to Beethoven who has never disappointed me.
Because Beethoven has this thing (in his music for all instruments, not only piano) that I very seldom find in others: his music carries me, makes me want to dance, clap hands, sing it as a I hear it. It takes me in its arms and makes me travel somewhere else. It is singable, it is danceable it does not leave you indiferent.  It's impossible for me to listen to a Beethoven piece and stay sitting on the chair as if I was watching TV. On the contrary, most of the other composers get just that reaction from me, including Chopin with his 1st Piano Concerto and Liszt. Schubert is a different thing altogether, another one that makes me feel fantastically. But I found that the majority may make very interesting music from the technical point of view but it doesn't make me feel much, or at least it requires that I hear it so many times that at last I know it. But Beethoven is more  immediate. And yet, it is no less complex or difficult.

I should say though that I do not want to be unfair towarsd Chopin. He has one thing that not even Beethoven does with me: it's that feeling of naturalness, of improptuness. I hear his music, and for me the paradigm is Ballade no1, and it seems like a river flowing, music that flows surprisingly, that looks like it takes turns you are not expecting but flows, flows like it escaped spontaneously from the composer's heart. True, but he's not always like this, and then I go back to the German master.

It is for this that after so many years listening to music I still find Beethoven to be the composer that works best for me, either on piano or on anything else. But I give it to you, that for me Chopin is 2nd (and was 1st for a long time) and I can play more Chopin than Beethoven. And besides these two, Schubert is next for the sheer lovability of his pieces. Even going a bit outside the piano, the 2nd movement of the Trout quintet is lyrical to the extreme, in a sense reminding me of moments of Beethoven's Kreutzer; and his Impromptus op 90 no1 and no3 fill me with an undescribable joy.

Perhaps I don't know enough piano music to talk about the rest yet, and that's why my views on this are always temporary. But for the moment, it is Beethoven - Chopin - Schubert - Liszt and the others.

Well, I'm no expert. I'm indeed not more than an amateur, but I'm expressing my point of views of the feeling not of the technical merits of a music.

Yours,

Alex

[bachapprentice]

Please, Handel owns Bach.

No one owns Bach.

[dough_mouse]

Rachmaninoff owns absolutely everyone - especially Beethoven, who is a noob.

The only person Rach doesnt completely pwn is Scriabin.

ggnorekthx.

[steveie986]

Also, Mozart is a noob.

[Kassaa]

All your mothers are noobs.

[steveie986]

Come on, how can you not think Bach and Mozart are noobs once you've heard the Rach3? Hyuk, hyuk. All music should be destroyed except for the Rach3, played by Lang Lang!!!!111uno

[da jake]

OMG what?? Rach cudnt cuntpoze his way out of a styrofoam box.

[stevie]

Just a minor footnote: I am not Stevie.

you are a sunovabitch for picking such a similar name, but im flattered

[stevie]

Bach and Schubert are a class above Beethoven.

all your negros are belong to us

[steveie986]

all your negros are belong to us

How is this dude not banned yet? I should be the sole stev(e)ie.

 

[da jake]

all your negros are belong to us

Beethoven
Ludwig
Ludwiggah
Wiggah
....

where "us" = Schube/Bach stevie's statement is true. 

[jre58591]

How is this dude not banned yet? I should be the sole stev(e)ie.

he brings da CG to this CG-deprived forum. and btw, he has been banned before.

Come on, how can you not think Bach and Mozart are noobs once you've heard the Rach3? Hyuk, hyuk. All music should be destroyed except for the Rach3, played by Lang Lang!!!!111uno

how could you say this??? lang lang should burn in hell for his rendition of the rach 3. and btw, rach 3 isnt the only piece of music written. there are tons of other piano concertos out there with just as much or more musicality and virtuosity.

[steveie986]

how could you say this??? lang lang should burn in hell for his rendition of the rach 3. and btw, rach 3 isnt the only piece of music written. there are tons of other piano concertos out there with just as much or more musicality and virtuosity.

I tried to make my sarcasm painfully obvious, but perhaps !!!!!1111uno wasn't obvious enough.

[jre58591]

I tried to make my sarcasm painfully obvious, but perhaps !!!!!1111uno wasn't obvious enough.

oh lol, i cant help being serious today, on this day of armageddon 

[stevie]

lang lang should burn in hell for his rendition of the rach 3. and btw, rach 3 isnt the only piece of music written. there are tons of other piano concertos out there with just as much or more musicality and virtuosity.

ahhaha, langlang's rach3 studio rec is a bit flaccid, his live vid is a CG classic and is actually a wikid perf, though not the best.

and i believe the rach 3 is the greatest concerto ever written, its appealing on a superficial level, aswell as a deep level, its a very deep and clever work.

Beethoven
Ludwig
Ludwiggah
Wiggah
....

where "us" = Schube/Bach stevie's statement is true.

hahaha no, beethoven is the greatest composer ever, fact.

[altary]

I would never claim that one composer is greater than another. I will say that some composers write music that fits well in a pianists hands such as Chopin. The poll list is a wonderful list of composers that each bring some thing unique into the repetoire. My favorite composer changes every week but I love Mozart for all his subtle changes, I love Schubert for his endless modualting, I love Brahms for his progressive writing, I love Liszt for making a pianist sounds like an orchestra and so on and so forth.

[jas]

Oh, come on, now. The piano was Beethoven's instrument. He took it from a fragile thing and forced its development to nowadays piano.
And that was surely his preferred instrument, the one he played best. Remember, he was a virtuoso pianist before becoming a composer. He wrote his pieces firstly to perform and when he grew mature, and deaf, he began composing for himself for the sake of music. But piano was always his preferred means of expression, for he could play the piano like few in his time. Take on the other hand violin, which when he was deaf was a nightmare for those that would accompany him.
Besides, as someone said here long ago, he really used the full keyboard and knew very well how to take it all from the grave sounds, some thing that Mozart didn't do best.

As for classification, Mozart and Haydn are classical, no doubt, but Beethoven is no longer on the EARLY-classic. He makes the transition for the romantic, although his early works are classical. But compare his 5th concerto with his 1st and note the evolution in style and density.

As for masterpieces, it's not only about Sonatas. Take his variations, Rondo a Capricio, Andante Favori, Fantasia Op.77. Frankly, I never heard his bagatelles played (I'm not including Fur Elise in the bagatelles because that's an albumblatt, if I'm not mistaken, and there are sets of bagatelles named as such).

He might not have etudes (at least I've never heard of one) but he has done some other things than just Sonatas and Rondo's. He did dances too, waltzes, ecossaises even Polonaises, and what is a Mazurka and a Waltz if not a dance? Chopin made ones inspired on the folklore of his own country... so did Beethoven. Surely, you're not expecting all non-polish composer to go writing a Mazurka, are you? Why would he?
I know I may be sounding narrow-minded, but the point is that the transformation of folk music to classical takes time and usually a composer uses as material what he knows best. So in European courts in the time of Beethoven, there was a different kind of dances which he used. Chopin used what he knew best than others: the music of his country, and made it popular. True he made Polonsaises, but perhaps that was already popular and serious outside Poland. There was a long tradition of doing dances "à la...." (Italians, Scottish, German, Polish, perhaps even Spanish), but may be Mazurkas at the time were still not considered serious.

Now, as for Beethoven's sonatas and masterpieces. I was surprised to see so many people in this forum (not just this thread) mention the 3rd movement of Moonlight. I've always liked it, but I don't consider it by far his best work. First all, I find the 1st movement much more seductive, and in a style similar to the 3rd, I think any movement of Appassionata is much more demanding, complex and satsifying.
Then we have his sonatas.

I've been always a fan of Beethoven. For me, Beethoven is the best composer of music. But I've always been divided regarding piano music specifically since I knew Chopin. And then I heard a recital of Chopin music, by a pianist that recorded the integral of his piano solo works. And in that recital, featuring perhaps one CD from the whole series, there were few moments that carried me away. I love Chopin's well-know pieces, but I understood then and there that he's also got minor things that made me think: Truly, Chopin is great, but he can be so boring at times. I'll stick to Beethoven who has never disappointed me.
Because Beethoven has this thing (in his music for all instruments, not only piano) that I very seldom find in others: his music carries me, makes me want to dance, clap hands, sing it as a I hear it. It takes me in its arms and makes me travel somewhere else. It is singable, it is danceable it does not leave you indiferent.  It's impossible for me to listen to a Beethoven piece and stay sitting on the chair as if I was watching TV. On the contrary, most of the other composers get just that reaction from me, including Chopin with his 1st Piano Concerto and Liszt. Schubert is a different thing altogether, another one that makes me feel fantastically. But I found that the majority may make very interesting music from the technical point of view but it doesn't make me feel much, or at least it requires that I hear it so many times that at last I know it. But Beethoven is more  immediate. And yet, it is no less complex or difficult.

I should say though that I do not want to be unfair towarsd Chopin. He has one thing that not even Beethoven does with me: it's that feeling of naturalness, of improptuness. I hear his music, and for me the paradigm is Ballade no1, and it seems like a river flowing, music that flows surprisingly, that looks like it takes turns you are not expecting but flows, flows like it escaped spontaneously from the composer's heart. True, but he's not always like this, and then I go back to the German master.

It is for this that after so many years listening to music I still find Beethoven to be the composer that works best for me, either on piano or on anything else. But I give it to you, that for me Chopin is 2nd (and was 1st for a long time) and I can play more Chopin than Beethoven. And besides these two, Schubert is next for the sheer lovability of his pieces. Even going a bit outside the piano, the 2nd movement of the Trout quintet is lyrical to the extreme, in a sense reminding me of moments of Beethoven's Kreutzer; and his Impromptus op 90 no1 and no3 fill me with an undescribable joy.

Perhaps I don't know enough piano music to talk about the rest yet, and that's why my views on this are always temporary. But for the moment, it is Beethoven - Chopin - Schubert - Liszt and the others.

Well, I'm no expert. I'm indeed not more than an amateur, but I'm expressing my point of views of the feeling not of the technical merits of a music.

Yours,

Alex

I enjoyed reading that post. One thing I don't get about this forum is that someone can make a thoughtful and interesting post and get no response whatsoever, then someone comes along afterward and says something sarky about Lang Lang and begins pages of posts of bickering...

You make some very good points, and I agree with pretty much everything you said, except that for me Chopin pips Beethoven. I love Beethoven's piano music, but I think I view (most of) it the same way you view Chopin - it doesn't speak to me the way Chopin's does. As you said, it's the naturalness and spontaneity in his music that I love. That said, I have a huge respect for Beethoven and what he did for music; there are very few piano works I'd rather listen to than his Appassionata. But I find that I love almost everything Chopin wrote, perhaps because, unlike most composers, there are very few works that could be said to be "immature". There are a few works he wrote as a child and in his adolescence, then all of a sudden at 19 he's writing the opus 10 etudes. Most composers have works hidden away that few people see as worthy of performance, but this hasn't really happened with Chopin. Almost everything he wrote can be found in the repertoire today. It's partly for that reason that I see him as the most naturally pianistic of composers.

I sometimes wonder if I'm just hopelessly biased in favour of Chopin because he's the first piano composer I ever studied and properly listened to, and still comprises most of what I play. But then I listen to the preludes or ballades and think, nah.

I will say that some composers write music that fits well in a pianists hands such as Chopin.

It's interesting that you should say that. For such a pianistic composer, some of Chopin's music bends your hands into some hellish positions. A critic in his day, Ludwig Rellstab, said that you shouldn't try to play the etudes without a surgeon present.

[altary]

It's interesting that you should say that. For such a pianistic composer, some of Chopin's music bends your hands into some hellish positions. A critic in his day, Ludwig Rellstab, said that you shouldn't try to play the etudes without a surgeon present.



I would never assume that any one composer is one thing - all composers evolve and explore new areas. You have to look at Chopin works as a whole not just the etudes. Just play through some the the styles he wrote; prelude, noturnes, waltzes, etc.... I do not think a surgeon would be needed. Of course, he has works that are devilish and make you go into a frenzy but keep in mind - there is a reason why so many people play Chopin all the time.

[mike_lang]

It's interesting that you should say that. For such a pianistic composer, some of Chopin's music bends your hands into some hellish positions. A critic in his day, Ludwig Rellstab, said that you shouldn't try to play the etudes without a surgeon present.



I would never assume that any one composer is one thing - all composers evolve and explore new areas. You have to look at Chopin works as a whole not just the etudes. Just play through some the the styles he wrote; prelude, noturnes, waltzes, etc.... I do not think a surgeon would be needed. Of course, he has works that are devilish and make you go into a frenzy but keep in mind - there is a reason why so many people play Chopin all the time.

I agree - and remember, the etudes which contort one's hands are etudes, after all.  And really, look at the difference between Op. 10 and Op. 25 - I think the second set on the whole fits in the fingers better.  In comparison to Beethoven, Chopin's works fit much more naturally within in the hand.

ML

[alejo_90]

Rachmaninoff owns absolutely everyone - especially Beethoven, who is a noob.

Beethoven, a noob compared to Rachmaninoff ? Now I'm angry.

Alex

[ivoryplayer_amf]

I think that it not a question of who you like more then not, or who can compose the best music, but more, who you can connect to.  I can relate a lot to Beethoveen, just in the fact he had an alcoholic dad and all this other blah blah, so when I read some of your comments about him it almost angers me.  But when you think about what i just said, it kindof makes sense.  If you understand and can relate or attach something to Beethoveens life, then when you listen to his music you can almost see the passion and the chaos and just everything.  But if you can relate or dont understand then you make comments about how much you think he sucks.  Maybe the people who said Beethoveen isnt good or deserving or whatever dont understand him well enough to have an opinion.

Personally.  I'm not saying that everyone should say that Beethoveen is the greatest, but to disregaurd him as ONE of the greatest is a lack or understanding and depth to your own passion.  Its about music appreciation.  Understanding the composer, not just his works, but his life, feelings & death.  Understand all of that about Beethoveen and you will think differently about him.

Check out this site about him and then say something like that.

https://www.carolinaclassical.com/articles/beethoven.html

[mephisto]

Bach and Schubert are a class above Beethoven.

This is just one of the most childiss comments in the entire forum.

[mike_lang]

Bach and Schubert are a class above Beethoven.

How do you figure?

ML

[da jake]

First off, I am just a beginner piano student, so you can discard my opinion on this basis if you want. However, I like to think of myself as an intelligent little piano student with a critical ear. Regardless of the wealth of Beethoven's creativity and his tremendous output, I personally believe that Schubert and Bach are even greater composers than Beethoven and I will try my best to explain why Schubert is greater (since it is a case that is not often made).

The Case for Schubert

Structure

In 1822, the same year Beethoven published his great Sonatas 30-32, Schubert published the Wanderer Fantasy.  The Wanderer demonstrates Schubert's totally mindblowing original ideas in the development and use of thematic ideas.

Harmony

Schubert's mastery of harmony never ceases to amaze me. The transformations are so deft, that their sheer audacity is sometimes not appreciated by many. I urge anyone to either play or listen closely to the A Flat Impromptu for a perfect example of Schubert slight of hand. Also, I would love to hear a stand-alone piano piece by Beethoven that is as sublime as the G-flat Major Impromptu. The late Schubert Sonatas, especially the great B-flat Major,  are rife with bizzare but totally convincing harmonic ideas. Schubert's  ideas are also often presented through disarmingly economical figurations that makes a lot of Liszt look like garbage.

Depth

As great as the 9th Symphony is, I think that Schubert's 8th and 9th Symphonies are superior to any that Beethoven wrote. The Unfinished Symphony is an absolutely pure musical statement, devoid of the superfluous pomp that sometimes bothers me about Beethoven.

I also think that if Schubert could have used the extra 30 years of life that Beethoven had a lot better.

[presto agitato]

What´s going on with Mendelssohn?

[sergei r]

OMG what?? Rach cudnt cuntpoze his way out of a styrofoam box.

Haha, I so have to remember that line...

Nah but seriously, Rach still ownz. As good as Chopin/Scriabin/Beethoven. It's really difficult for me to rank composers in order, there's so many good ones around. They're all so different coming from different periods and all with their own unique styles that it's impossible to compare one as being better than another.

As for total output though, (not just solo piano) I still say Beethoven is the best. Piano sonatas, symphonies, string quartets, violin sonatas, cello sonatas, piano concertos, a violin concerto...'nuff said. Brahms, Schubert and Mendelssohn come close.

[da jake]

I was joking though of course. I do love Rachmaninov. 

[beethoven2]

hahaha no, beethoven is the greatest composer ever, fact.

YES!!!!! completely true!!!!

[dave santino]

I think it was Barenboim who said that without Beethoven's Piano Sonatas, the piano would not have become the instrument it is today, either structurally or as an instrument to convey emotion. For me, Beethoven's sonatas are indeed the bedrock of modern piano writing; if Bach's WTC is the old testament, then Beethoven's Sonatas are the new. The musical, emotional and technical content of the late sonatas is absolutely staggering; op. 111 alone is enough for me to say that Beethoven is one of the three greatest composers for piano yet to have lived. HOWEVER: I would hesitate to pick between Beethoven, Liszt and Chopin if forced to say who is THE greatest. Beethoven's music forced the piano to be developed into a more durable, louder and more powerful instrument; Chopin's etudes are the foundation stone of pure technique in their focus and utter success in being the best set of studies yet copmosed to highlight and really work on every different facet of technique; and Liszt, well, without Liszt, no Rach, Prokofiev, Wagner, Strauss, atonality, in fact 20thC music, pretty much gone. True, his earlier pieces are virtuosic showpieces pure and simple, but look at his work from Annees de Pelerinage onwards: the perfect combination of real musical and emotional depth and mind-blowing technique. Yeah, he used paraphrases a lot when he wanted to dazzle and amaze, but he also wrote beautiful music of his own to great effect- Dem Andenken Petrofis, Les Gloches de Geneve and the Petrach sonnetts for a start. And in no way whatsoever does Schubert come anywhere near either Beethoven, Chopin or Liszt in terms of any sort of musical achievement (IMO). So I suppose the crux of what I've said is: Beethoven is probably the greatest composer ever overall, but as a composer for the piano, it's too hard to say.