Ultra-fast arpeggios (ARGERICH)!!!

[Rach3]

Comme_le_vent, I suppose you think you are "almost" as good as Argerich and that with a little more practice you will be equal... yes these pianists weren't "all that great" at all, in fact didn't you just post, under the "I love Maksim" thread,

vladirir horror witch, what a crummy pianist he just copies maksim

[Rach3]

Furthermore I strongly request you stop making random immature ad-hominem attacks, crude sexual jokes, irrelevant biblical tangents (Noah's ark), and the like.

What I would like to know is, are we even capable of such speed, can the nerves in our hands learn to fire so rapidly to allow such? There was a reference somewhere about Horowitz having unusually fast nerves, I think Argerich etc. might have been born with such velocity as opposed to acquring it, a depressing thought...

[BoliverAllmon]

I think that that is a possiblity of fasting twitching fingers. Muscles are made of slow twitch and fast twitch fibers, some have a greater ratio of fast twitch than slow twitch. One thing you can do to help strengthen your fast twitch fibers is to do more things fast. Don't just go normal speed, this promotes slowness. Maybe walk faster around the house or something else.

boliver

[comme_le_vent]

rach3...i take it your not a fan of my work?

[BoliverAllmon]

I think that is an understatement.

boliver

[nareh]

 

[bernhard]

Funny you mentioning Argerich and Uchida in the same paragraph. There is a theory that Argerich is actually Uchida.

“Martha Argerich is in fact two people . While remaining in the Argerich persona for performance of signature works, she undergoes artistic transformation to perform in the inimitable Uchida style on appropriate occasions.”

Read the full story here:

https://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1345/conspiracy.html

[BoliverAllmon]

yeah i heard that theory before. I don't know if it is correct or what.

boliver

[Noah]

yeah i heard that theory before. I don't know if it is correct or what.

boliver

[eddie92099]

yeah i heard that theory before. I don't know if it is correct or what.

boliver

Yes - the evidence is pretty conclusive ,
Ed

[nareh]

 

[eddie92099]

Hey!Did you listen that last summer, the fleet-fingered French pianist Francois-Rene Duchable, 51, brought his mainstream concert career to a spectacular close when he hired a helicopter to drop a piano into a lake in La Colmiane, near Nice.

He also made some anti-Argerich comments ,
Ed

[nareh]

 

[eddie92099]

Her technique is much more than her musicality.

Could you give an example so I could destroy your argument?
Ed

[comme_le_vent]

cool down, ed, argerich aint all that good, her rach 3 for example is lacking in speed.

[eddie92099]

Yes we can't all match Lang Lang in that piece,
Ed

[Noah]

Yes we can't all match Lang Lang in that piece,
Ed

Or David Helfgott  

[liszmaninopin]

Getting kind of back on topic-I would suggest that instead of relying only on slow or fast practice, one should do a mixture of both.  First learn the movements and commit it to memory with a slow practice, and then do small chunks very quickly (above tempo) to build speed.  It's just a thought.

Argerich does do a very good Rach 3, but I still prefer Horowitz's.

[arigatuso]

so,  comme_le_vent,

How do you practice arpeggios?
Have you got any particular routine?
What do you think about this Thumb under, Thumb over stuff?
Start slow and accelerating arpeggios?
or Start very fast and deccelerating arpeggios?
Both?

Thanks,
Ale

[bernhard]

so,  comme_le_vent,

How do you practice arpeggios?
Have you got any particular routine?
What do you think about this Thumb under, Thumb over stuff?
Start slow and accelerating arpeggios?
or Start very fast and deccelerating arpeggios?
Both?

Yes, all of that plus:

- Playing in chords
- Using rhythm variations.
- Using accent variations.
- Thumb under for slow, legato arpeggios, thumbs over for fast ones.

Also have a look here:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=repo;action=display;num=1078381420

[comme_le_vent]

i practice large stretch arpeggios in both hands ie. godowsky study no1.
i practise them presto possible. and thumb over naturally becomes much a lesser movement at higher speeds.
once you go beyond 240 to the 1/4 note in 16th notes, your basically just shifting the hand.
but ive never conciously done this, and if u try to do it conciously then you may end up with exaggeration and unnecesarry tension.

[anda]

someone mentioned mitsuko uchida here... i only have a recording of two schubert sonatas with her, and i absolutely hated that (of course she's impecable technically, but that's no excuse as far as i see). so, someone please tell me why is she so praised?

[bernhard]

Have you heard her Mozart? It is pretty good.

But the real reason she is so praised is because she actually is Martha Argerich!

[Rob47]

What about Emil Gilels and Columbo?
eh? has anyone seen the "Separated at Birth" picture? hilarious.

[Xelles]

***"...why do people think that slow practices would get them into Carnegie Hall?, they wont!"***

Lmfao, it's so true! While still learning a piece slow practice will be useful to buil your technique. But you'll be playing a piece a lot longer then you have to if you just continue to practice like that religously. Yet, people still do it!  

[faulty_damper]

Funny you mentioning Argerich and Uchida in the same paragraph. There is a theory that Argerich is actually Uchida.

“Martha Argerich is in fact two people . While remaining in the Argerich persona for performance of signature works, she undergoes artistic transformation to perform in the inimitable Uchida style on appropriate occasions.”

Read the full story here:

https://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1345/conspiracy.html

The link takes me to a page not found!  I want to know about the theory but the linky no worky!

[bernhard]

The link takes me to a page not found!  I want to know about the theory but the linky no worky!

I tried the link, it is gone. I wonder if a greater conspiracy is going on...

Anyway, the site gave details, as how Martha after becoming a secretary in Japan using her superior typing skills reinvented herself as Mitsuko Uchida in order to play a defferent repertory with the sort of interpretatino that ARgerich fans would never accept from her if she did it as herself.

The site also provided some impressive photographic evidence (some of the photos you could not say who was who), and pointed out to the undeniable fact that thetwo of them have never ever seen together in the same place at the same time.

I gave it a Google search, but all the links that came up pointed to this - now obsolete - site.

Best wishes (The truth is out there!)
Bernhard.

[comme_le_vent]

at a recent recital in england, someone told her about it and she became so infuriated that she hired a lawyer to take down the site.

ive got 3 words - chill martha

[BoliverAllmon]

isn't that only 2 words?

boliver

[eddie92099]

at a recent recital in england

Because we all know how many of them she gives...

someone told her about it and she became so infuriated that she hired a lawyer to take down the site.

Do you think it's funny to lie about people we all respect?
Ed

[Noah]

at a recent recital in england, someone told her about it and she became so infuriated that she hired a lawyer to take down the site.

ive got 3 words - chill martha

Except she doesn't give recitals anymore... Maybe someone should hire a lawyer to make you stop lying all the time.

[comme_le_vent]

i feel it was in good taste

and i have 6 words for you boliver - congratulations for being so observant

i still find it funny though, you still add ed after your posts, we all know who you are, all too well............

im glad that you have left the forum, because now i can reign supreme.

[ThEmUsIcMaNBJ]

i feel it was in good taste

and i have 6 words for you boliver - congratulations for being so observant

i still find it funny though, you still add ed after your posts, we all know who you are, all too well............

im glad that you have left the forum, because now i can reign supreme.

How old are you?  You sound like my 8 year old sister.

[comme_le_vent]

thanks  

[BoliverAllmon]

that was only 5 words.

boliver

[bernhard]

that was only 5 words.

boliver

I have three words for you:

That was probably his intention in the first place.

[BoliverAllmon]

really? I didn't know that. WOW thanks for the information.

boliver

[ayahav]

you people are bickering like a buch of kindergarteners.....can't you settle it the mature way? A good cyber-arm-wrestling contest?  

[Herve]

Hi, this is my first post.

This is an interesting thread, so I'll try to make a contribution.

The answer to this topic lies in the pages a book called "Mastering the Chopin Etudes",  actually written by students of Abby Whiteside, but she is credited as author because the book is really a collection of her works.

https://www.abbywhiteside.org/

I won't attempt to explain in a few words what takes her an entire book, but I'll try to give a general gist of the most important things it has taught me over the 18 or so years I've been reading it.

Frist of all, I believe that NONE of the great "fast" works for piano were either conceived or performed in a way which lend themselves to slow practice.  The composers understood before pen touched paper exactly what "type" of piece they wanted to create, and thus the required general rhythmic piano technique to embellish the melody.

One HAS to first hear, and hopefully, see a piece performed as it was originally intended by the composer, before one undertakes to perform it.  Even then, before actually attempting to play,  the player's imagination has to come to the forefront in literally conjuring up the kind of GROSS physical activity which must have been required to create the usually-obvious outlined rhythmic framework of the piece - an overall swinging or swaying of the body and perhaps the arms. (As in Boogy Woogy "style".)  This establishes the important rhythmic and harmonic benchmarks (foundation) of the piece.

Get the important notes within the rythmic framework well established and the less important notes will take care of themselves.

I think learning to play the Etudes, or any similar pieces, is very similar to learning to fast-throw a baseball a long distance - the ENTIRE body MUST get into the rythmic act.  What happens at the fingertips (where the rubber meets the road) should be, as Abbey puts it, like the crack of a whip - almost all the action occurs before the crack.  In the case of rapid arpeggios, one large, continuous rythmic motion of all of the body"levers" produces what is heard by a listener as an almost unbelievably rapid sequence of notes.  As in a glissando or ripped chord, all the fingers have to do is spread for proper interval and "solidify" at key contact after being "snapped" into position by the really big levers - shoulder, upper arm, forearm and, to a far lesser degree, palm (hand without fingers).  

The sad thing is, the more those "independent and strong" fingers get involved in slow note-wise practice, the greater the likelihood that the whip will fall limply to the ground as the powerful overall rhythmic force, the true foundation and ultimate goal of any piece, is "withers on the vine".

Anyone interested in developing a truly beautiful phrase, with speed-based-on-rhythm at its core, should read that book.

[faulty_damper]

at a recent recital in england, someone told her about it and she became so infuriated that she hired a lawyer to take down the site.

ive got 3 words - chill martha

This is a funny thread.  But is that really true?  

Uchida and Agerich, like Clark Kent and Superman.

Guess which one is Superman.

[erik-]

Argerich ?

[trunks]

Ultra-fast arpeggios?
And what is the point here playing those final arpeggios so fast anyway? What service has that on the music?
I once heard Alexis Weissenberg in Hong Kong play the Schumann Arabeske Op.18 at double or even close to triple the normal speed. What a brutal disservice to the music. I almost couldn't help shouting "STOP!"

[comme_le_vent]

what service has does it do to the music?

it makes it sound more dramatic and emotional,a dn the effect chopin was going for was akin to that of a glissando - so up to a certain degree - the faster the better.

i agree with you on the schumann, it doesnt suit the music, but in this case it does

[trunks]

Um . . . I would rather stick to the more articulated touch with every note at normal speed on this arpeggio. That would have more power as the final, authoritative statement of the Prelude. If Chopin indeed intended a glissando effect he would've indicated pseudo glissando (bearing in mind the impossibility of a true glissando).

[BoliverAllmon]

ok, I know some people here hate the idea of slow practice. Let me explain a bit better what I mean by that. You need to start practicing at a slow metronome speed. Once you can play the entire piece without a mistake then you move the metronome up a notch. You can continue this until BAM!! you are one seriously fast arpeggiating monster that never misses.

boliver

[Xelles]

Excellent fashion choice, Yundi.

[Herve]

The problem with slow practice is that the behavior which it cultivates is in no way similiar to the whole-body thechnique required to play, for example, the Chopin Op. 10 no.1.  So, in most cases of the fast works of Chopin, performance speed is definitely NOT slow playing which is merely "sped up".  Yes, notes can be learned this way, but, particularyly on widely-spaced arpeggios, it truly is frustrating, counter-productive, and, in the end, "bears no fruit". The whole rhythmic dynamic force of the piece is "squelched".  

Additionally, playing a fast piece at slow tempo makes it far too difficult to "link up" and easily recognize the notes of the melody - the thing the piece is really all about.

Far better at first to play at tempo, but ONLY  the notes which are essential to recognize the melody. In the case of Chopin this may be only be one note per measure, or even fewer. So play only those notes which would allow a listener, and the player, to say "Yeah ....... I recognize that piece!"  As much as we notice, and want to "say",  those blisteringly fast little notes, their importance is almost nil to those few, comparatively-infrequent little notes which have elevated the works of Chopin to the highest pedestal.  And it is only the player's awareness and TRUE APPRECIATION of this fact that allows him to learn those works.  How ironic.

So, get the overall rhythmic and melodic idea of the piece AS A WHOLE well established in as much an outlined or "skeletonized" fashion as possible - at tempo.   Using this method, one will very quickly get that feeling of accomplishment and confidence - one actually feels as if one already "knows" the piece - and, in fact,  this is really close to the truth.  Very soon thereafter ideas on how to fill in the embellishing notes just simply spring forth.  But go back frequently and repeat that initial skeleton - it's the "glue" that holds the whole thing together, and it's the "thing" that's going to allow consistent, reliable performance.

A warning!  Once the skeleton is learned, don't now decide that you're going to be the one person on the planet to play the Chopin Etudes at "double tempo"!  This is an almost-irresistable tendency, and it has to be resisted at all cost.  Decide up front how fast you'd like to perform the piece, and then STICK TO IT - at least until all the notes have been reliablly filled in.   Then, the sky's the limit - go for it!

After learning the skeleton and then starting to focus on filling in some additional notes, don't be afraid try every motion, position, or gesticulation with whatever body part that comes to mind, no matter how ridiculous it may seem. The more of the body invloved, the better! If it doesn't accomplish almost immediately the desired result, ALWAYS WITHIN THE CHOSEN RYTHMIC FRAMEWORK, then reject it and try something else.  Here, falilure is a blessing because the relative merits of each attempt are remarkably well-remembered. Each new attempt spurs new ideas based upon combinations and variations of the previous attempts.  When the "correct" technique is stumbled upon, it is a real bolt of lightning that one never forgets.  THAT"S IT! - you'll almost shout.

As I am learning to play these works I am always thinking that it is not my fingers which are doing the playing - it is my whole body, and that, almost invariably, a large group of keys is going to have to be "struck" in a single "landing" of the hand- played almost as a single note - and very-sensitively felt that way by the fingers they make their impacts.  The fingers' feel of the "texture" or "roughness" of the landing is a very valuable tool for the player.  

During performance at tempo, it never ceases to amaze me how automatic the whole affair is as long as the rhythmic dance is "running the show".  It's a dance where only I'm doing all the moving and the piano is, as always, just sitting there.  My whole body is so active (my arms, in particular getting into some almost unbelievable positions as they "shoot" may hands onto my "partner"),  that if someone were to restrain any part of it, the whole performance would simply collapse.

To sum up, it is remarkable (and quite ironic) that speed technique is completely inappropriate for slow passages, and slow technique is completely inappropriate for speed play.  To play Chopin, one has to be familar not only with these extremes, but the continuous spectrum of technique, and every step of it requires the entire body to be fully, rhythmically involved.

[ayahav]

Concerning the post about the pope...... I do believe his mother was Jewish, and that would make him automatically Jewish as well.... Yes: trust a Jew - so long as the mum's a jew, the kid's a jew...

Beyond that, I see no relevance at all between the last few posts and the first one...... the connections are completely absurd...... Anyways....

[bernhard]

The problem with slow practice is that the behavior which it cultivates is in no way similiar to the whole-body thechnique required to play, for example, the Chopin Op. 10 no.1.  

Hi, Herve.

I completely agree with both of your most excellent posts in this thread.

Slow practice must be differentiated from slow motion practice. And although I believe slow practice to be useful for the purposes of memorisation (since very slow practice will make hand memory ineffective), I find it useless for almost everything else. And incorrect slow practice (that is you are playing slow so you get away with all sorts of movements that you will not be abel to use when palying fast) will in fact create speed walls.

Anyway, I have read the Abby Whiteside books many years ago (and keep reading them and always finding new things in them) and I can say that she has been one of the greatest influences in my way of thinking about the piano.

However there is one aspect that I always found unsatisfactory: Her idea of a basic rhythm, besides not being clearly explained (although I think I know what she means), is taken for granted. She seems to believe that people just have this basic rhythm. In no point does she gives directions on how to acquire it.

I understand that this may be simply a limitation of a book, and that in her lessons, with hands on instruction she might have elicited it with great facility from her students.

In my experience, pre-school children will have amazing natural co-ordination and need little or no technical guidance, they just seem to be able to do all the necessary movements with great ease.

However, children who have been at school for two or three years are so uptight that they have to relearn these natural co-ordinations. Teenagers and adults are unbelievalbly repressed in their phisicality.

I was wondering if you agree with me in this regard, and if you would like to comment on Whiteside's natural rhythm and how to acquire/teach it.

I realise that this seems a bit of the original topic. But since people are already discussing the Jewishness of the pope's mother, and Yundi li's fashion sense , I don't think anyone will mind.

If you prefer, open a new topic and answer there.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Xelles]

I realise that this seems a bit of the original topic. But since people are already discussing the Jewishness of the pope's mother, and Yundi li's fashion sense , I don't think anyone will mind.

I'll give him credit, he did make a descent attempt to look like her. But he doesn't have the chest to show off that kind of clivage.