What's the ULTIMATE 75 min program?

[Rach3]

The Liszt sonata is universally popular for about the same reason that Die Fledermaus and the second Hungarian Rhapsody are universally popular. It has little to do with it being 'intellectually deep' music.

The only reason it is repetetive is because it is so equisitely constructed]

This makes no sense..

[aquariuswb]

I'm with Rach3 on this one. The Liszt sonata is NOWHERE NEAR, not even in the same GALAXY, as Op. 111, let alone Opp. 109 or 110 -- or numerous other Beethoven sonatas. Liszt was a good composer, yes, but he was a much better pianist. Beethoven was a good pianist, but he was a much better composer. There is no comparison here, unless you are more concerned with flashy fingerwork than with musical content, which I have come to accept that many, if not most, of the posters here are. Yes, Lizst's sonata is a great piece -- but in terms of musical content, emotional content, "importance," and everything besides technical flash (which still, Op. 111 does not lack -- just check out those double trills in the Arietta), Op. 111 wins out by a landslide at every turn.

Yes, this is "just my opinion," but it's also just my opinion that, say, fondu tastes better than McDonald's -- some opinions are more informed and learned than others.

[nanabush]

Play like 1/3 of Clavacembalisticum or however you spell it, and it's guaranteed that you'll be the only one left in the entire place at the end of it...

[argerich_smitten]

The Liszt sonata is universally popular for about the same reason that Die Fledermaus and the second Hungarian Rhapsody are universally popular. It has little to do with it being 'intellectually deep' music.

I'm not sure what to say to this.  comparing the sonata to the second hungarian rhapsody or fledermaus is absolutely ... well bleh it is rediculous.  it's obvious beethoven is a much much better composer, much more important, more revolutionary, whatever you want to say, but the liszt sonata isn't just "Liszt".  The sonata far transcends anything else he wrote, far far far.  The liszt sonata isn't really flashy; as liszt goes it is subdued and actaully a little unpianistic.  Would you please point out why you think 111 wins with a 'landslide' victory against the liszt in musical content?  As I said I understand (or perhaps feel works better her) the emotional content of 111  is much more deep, but the structure, creativity, and musical complexity (different from emotional complexity) of the beethoven really aren't up to par with the sonata.

There is no comparison here, unless you are more concerned with flashy fingerwork than with musical content, which I have come to accept that many, if not most, of the posters here are

   

This isn't Don Juan we are talking about.  If you think the sonata is more about flashy fingerwork than musicality, I have doubts that you even listened to it; perhaps you just caught wind that Liszt wrote a sonata and assumed it was like most of the show pieces he concieved. 

that isn't McDonald's my friend, that's stake tar-tar and napa valley cabernet you are holding

[Rach3]

First off, I think I might apologize for comparing the Liszt sonata to Fledermaus... as well as it served my analogy, I really think much more highly of the  great Liszt b minor than to compare it with anything by Strauss. Even very good Strauss.

Given that, I think you (Argerich_Smitten) don't know what you're talking about. Or maybe you're not very familiar with beethoven's late sonatas? Because I find it brazen and offensive that you suggest op. 111

1) is not as 'structurally complex' as the Liszt sonata (perhaps you thing it's an improvisatory piece?)
2) is not as 'creative' as the Liszt sonata (its experimentation in rhythmic form was only about, oh, a century ahead of its time...)
3) is not as 'musically complex' as the Liszt sonata

You admit yourself that Beethoven is the superior composer (who argues the point?).. but you are only approaching the superficiality of both sonatas, judging how much "emotional content" or "musical content" the one or the other has. These words are very weak labels, and they do not describe these pieces in the way you want to them to describe. Also, I think you do a disservice to Liszt saying his sonata "far trasncends" him as a composer - I personally find almost all of Annees des Pelerinage to be equal (or greater) than the b minor.

I suppose you might want to familiarize yourself with Beethoven a bit more - you seem to perceive him as a sort of undeserved hero. Find a recording of the last sonatas (op. 101 onwards) - there's a lot to be enjoyed in them.

PS. I certainly have heard the Liszt sonata - numerous times - twice live in fact (which is where I get the impression it's "too long").

PPS. I strongly dislike cabernet. That analogy wasn't very meaningful.

-Rach3

[chromatickler]

but you are only approaching the superficiality of both sonatas, judging how much "emotional content" or "musical content" the one or the other has. These words are very weak labels, and they do not describe these pieces in the way you want to them to describe.

and your idea of a strong label would be what, number of notes per seconds?

[pianomann1984]

You cannot possible compare Liszt & Beethoven, who grew up in competely different times, with completely different heritages.  If Liszt were anything like Beethoven, he would have written Beethoven Sonatas, and not Liszt Sonatas, but this makes his music no less worthy of recognition and respect.  The main problem with the the Liszt is that contemporary artists tend to belittle his music with senseless virtuosity.  If you would read an analysis of the Liszt's Sonata in B minor, you would see just how complex it is - most are twice as long as any of the Beethoven analyses & in all respects, I find the Liszt just as profound.  This doesn't mean the fugal writing in teh first movement of Op. 111 doesn't send shivers up my spine (frankly I defy anyone to show a true understanding of the 2nd movement - I wouldn't play it myself), but so does the second subject of the Liszt, when it's played with due care, and the fugal counterpoint is ingeneous: every bit as exciting as Beethoven's.  What we shouldn't deny is that this is all incredibly good music, and is all worth a place in our regular performance repertoire.

[nanabush]

The sonata In B minor is incredible, but soo difficult...  I prefer most beethoven sonatas mainly because they are much easier (some of them), but soon I will have a go at the first movement lol...probably in like 2 years I'll never come around to it..

Once again ultamate program

The full pictures at an exhibition, that would be so awesom, havn't seen that in a while... or heard it..

[argerich_smitten]

First of all, pictures is tough.  I don't think the liszt sonata is tougher than pictures (however i've only heard pictures once in my life; never even looked at the score so perhaps i'm very wrong... don't think so though).  The particular beethoven sonata we were talking [arguing I guess] about (111) is quite difficult; some sections are pretty brutal, and there are serious interpretation issues in the second movement.  I wouldn't think it would be easier than the liszt either.

 

Insert Quote
The sonata In B minor is incredible, but soo difficult...  I prefer most beethoven sonatas mainly because they are much easier (some of them), but soon I will have a go at the first movement lol...probably in like 2 years I'll never come around to it..

the liszt sonata is technically a one movement piece (and I am sorry if you were being sarcastic; feel free to make fun of me if you were) so you would have your work cut out for you attacking 'just the first movement'.  You would be stoned if you just cut it off in the middle, so I don't suggest trying that.  The musical depth of the Liszt sonata is much more challenging to wrap your head around than the technical problems, so if you were referring to the technical issues being 'so difficult' you are probably further away than you thought. 

[pianowelsh]

I dont know i have a million programmes floating in my head - theres just too much fantasic music!!

Bach-Busoni Chaconne (because i love Bach and so few of the progs mentioned included it!?!?!) c15mins

Beethoven Op110 (slightly sunnier in character and nice progression from Bach with the fuge) c20mins

Chopin Ballade 4 (because it is beautiful and has a good end to go into the break)
c 15mins
=c50mins

Interval


Balakirev The Lark - (hauntingly beautiful calling audiences attention back)
c5mins

Scriabin 4th or 5th sonata (they are both stunning and interesting)
c15mins

ideally id love a sonata by prokofiev here but that will be too long - SO

something like ........................?
one or two pieces from Prokofiev Romeo and juliet suite (pref zippy ones)

It'll be different tomorrow -eg i horrify myself that there is No mozart or liszt or any spanish music atall there and (if i had to choose a prok sonata it would have been 6 - c30 mins - wouldnt do that to a poor lunchtime audience) - like i said theres too much good music and not enough time to play it all!

[musicsdarkangel]

I'm with Rach3 on this one. The Liszt sonata is NOWHERE NEAR, not even in the same GALAXY, as Op. 111, let alone Opp. 109 or 110 -- or numerous other Beethoven sonatas. Liszt was a good composer, yes, but he was a much better pianist. Beethoven was a good pianist, but he was a much better composer. There is no comparison here, unless you are more concerned with flashy fingerwork than with musical content, which I have come to accept that many, if not most, of the posters here are. Yes, Lizst's sonata is a great piece -- but in terms of musical content, emotional content, "importance," and everything besides technical flash (which still, Op. 111 does not lack -- just check out those double trills in the Arietta), Op. 111 wins out by a landslide at every turn.

Yes, this is "just my opinion," but it's also just my opinion that, say, fondu tastes better than McDonald's -- some opinions are more informed and learned than others.

You guys have to be kidding me.

Why are you comparing Liszt and Beethoven?

that's a joke.

Both of them are great composers, and not one work is more "deep" than the other.

For me personally, I prefer the Liszt sonata far over the Beethoven, because I would never want to spend the time learning the Beethoven, because I personally, believe it is not as "deep".  It depends on the pianist.

[steinwayguy]

Yeah the Sonata in B Minor is probably Liszt's greatest work.

However, not only does the Liszt sonata compare to Beethoven's 111- nearly nothing compares to Opus 111. It is a composition standing above any other. Period.

[pianomann1984]

Why?

[Rach3]

Why do you ask? I assume you are not familiar with it...

[pianomann1984]

I am more than familiar with it, but I want to know why you think nothing compares to Op 111?  The 2nd movement is quirky, but nothing revolutionary - I think too much credit is given to Beethoven for his accomplishments - He was just another musician trying to get along in life.  No doubt he was an incredibly talented musician, but people talk about him as if he is some sort of God.  There is much in Beethoven that you will find in all other places of French and Italian Opera of the time.  There is plenty out there that I would gladly play in a programme besides Op 111 (Op 110, for example, which I find to be the most incredible piece).  Maybe it's an age thing - I'm only 20, so maybe I don't have enough life-experience behind me to fully appreciate this 'wonder.'

[MattL]

Here it is:

Chopin Scherzo No. 3 (6.5-8 min.)
Liszt Sonata in B minor (30 min.)
Beethoven tempest sonata 1st mvmt (7 min?)
Rachmaninoff Prelude in D major (5 min)
Bach Partita No. 2 (13-14 min.)
Chopin Ballade No. 3 (7 min.)
Chopin nocture in C# minor (4 min)

Total Time 75 min(or a little less)

[aquariuswb]

You guys have to be kidding me.

Why are you comparing Liszt and Beethoven?

that's a joke.

Both of them are great composers, and not one work is more "deep" than the other.

For me personally, I prefer the Liszt sonata far over the Beethoven, because I would never want to spend the time learning the Beethoven, because I personally, believe it is not as "deep".  It depends on the pianist.

Do I even need to point out how hypocritical this post is?

[aquariuswb]

I think too much credit is given to Beethoven for his accomplishments - He was just another musician trying to get along in life.

BLASPHEMY!!!!!

[pianomann1984]

If you say so! 

[cziffra]

I have a question about the op111

Would everyone be so enraptured by it if he'd written another one after it?  If it wasn't the FINAL beethoven sonata...

where would we be if we couldn't ascribe notions of finality and farewell to it? 

just a thought.

[Rach3]

Well, he did, sort of - the Diabelli variations were written after op. 111.

[argerich_smitten]

I think too much credit is given to Beethoven for his accomplishments - He was just another musician trying to get along in life.  No doubt he was an incredibly talented musician, but people talk about him as if he is some sort of God.

Actaully, I think he was some sort of God.  There is more humanity that can be effectively conveyed in his music than any other music.  He did stupid stupid things; repeating odd patterns that would sound horrible, unmusical suprises, ect... yet somehow his music overall is just the best (and of course this is arguable, but it seems as musicians mature they are all traveling towards this conclusion).  Like the 5th concerto for example...  what is that noise the piano is playing when it first comes in?  It's not really a sound effect...  I really don't understand why it sounds so good at all.  There is an emotional response that beethoven invokes in the listener that other composers do not.


that being said, my beliefs about the Liszt sonata have not wavered; I don't even think opus 111 is beethoven's greatest piano work (hammer klavier is in my oppinion). 

no need to beat a dead horse though

[aquariuswb]

I have a question about the op111

Would everyone be so enraptured by it if he'd written another one after it?  If it wasn't the FINAL beethoven sonata...

where would we be if we couldn't ascribe notions of finality and farewell to it? 

just a thought.

That is an interesting thought, but IMO the fact that Opp 109 and 110 are equally revered may answer your question.

[dancingfingers]

First post! 

I gave a senior recital one year ago-- my program, though not the flashiest, was well-balanced and contained, in my opinion, some truly profound and beautiful music. Here it is:

Bach partita 2 in c minor (dramatic, intellectual and structurally perfect)
Beethoven sonata op. 31 no.2 in d minor (lyrical, intimate, deeply emotional)

***

Chopin Grande Valse in E-flat (good-humored and lighthearted after the pathos of the first half)
Chopin b-flat minor nocturne (elegiac and contemplative)
Chopin b-minor scherzo (bombastic, flashy, acerbic, but with a touching middle chapter)
Ginastera Danzas Argentinas (quirky, flamboyant, evocative, pure fun)

'Twas great fun; I especially enjoyed the first half.

I always thought it would be interesting to give a recital juxtaposing Bach's Well Tempered Clavier with the Chopin etudes-- there are some striking similarities. What do you think?

[stebroccm]

Here's my recital Program:

Beethoven op. 90 (13 minutes)
Brahms Paganini Variations Book I (12 minutes)
Ligeti Musica Ricercata (24 minutes)
Prokofiev Sonata No. 7 (18 minutes)

Encore: Liszt Wilde Jagd (5 minutes)

Total:  (72 minutes)

[pianowelsh]

Liszt Dante Sonata (15mins)
Ravel Mirrors (25?)
Chopin Polonaise Fantasy (12 ish)
------------------------------------------
Bach-busoni chaconne (15mins)
Moskowski Capriccio Espangnole (8-9mins)

should be about right length (capriccio encore like anyway so they wouldnt notice)!!!

[decadent]

Liszt B minor

------------------

Schubert B-flat

just right on time


I really dont see why some people on the forum disregard liszt's b minor so much, surely its one of the towering creations of Romanticism and in the entire history of piano.

I feel sorry for those who thinks the b minor pales in comparison with op.111, and I dont see why it would be a terrible thing to pair them in concerts.  If anything, they'd compliment each other very well, although i'd probably play both 110 and 111 in one half, and then the b minor in the other, just so its more balanced time wise.

[stebroccm]

I feel sorry for those who thinks the b minor pales in comparison with op.111, and I dont see why it would be a terrible thing to pair them in concerts.  If anything, they'd compliment each other very well

I agree, they are both major landmarks in the piano repertoire, and cannot really be compared.  it might be a little weird though to program two big virtuosic works that both end slowly and softly. 

[Regulus Medtner]

Bach: Italian Concerto.
Beethoven: Rondo a cappriccio "Rage over a lost penny".
                   "Waldstein" Sonata.

Intermission.

Medtner: Forgotten Melodies op.39 nos.1-4.
               Sonata - Ballade op.27.

[musicsdarkangel]

First off, I think I might apologize for comparing the Liszt sonata to Fledermaus
Given that, I think you (Argerich_Smitten) don't know what you're talking about. Or maybe you're not very familiar with beethoven's late sonatas? Because I find it brazen and offensive that you suggest op. 111

1) is not as 'structurally complex' as the Liszt sonata (perhaps you thing it's an improvisatory piece?)
2) is not as 'creative' as the Liszt sonata (its experimentation in rhythmic form was only about, oh, a century ahead of its time...)
3) is not as 'musically complex' as the Liszt sonata


-Rach3

Oh my god, you just contradicted yourself.... If you insist to keep arguing, just look at this... THIS is what I am talking about!! 

[musicsdarkangel]

Do I even need to point out how hypocritical this post is?

Listen.... They are comparing them in terms of "who is better">   I was comparing in terms of MY TASTE.

You can't state one is better than the other, but you can state that one is harmonically more complex...because that may be proven.  And like I said, I enjoy the later romantic era than the earlier, because they are structurally and harmonically the perfect balance for me... Liszt is more complex than Beethoven but less atonal than modern music.


Please, understand what I'm arguing before arguing back.

[aquariuswb]

Listen.... They are comparing them in terms of "who is better">   I was comparing in terms of MY TASTE.

You can't state one is better than the other, but you can state that one is harmonically more complex...because that may be proven.  And like I said, I enjoy the later romantic era than the earlier, because they are structurally and harmonically the perfect balance for me... Liszt is more complex than Beethoven but less atonal than modern music.


Please, understand what I'm arguing before arguing back.

Perhaps you should say what you mean the first time around, as to avoid such confusion... you said "You guys have to be kidding me. Why are you comparing Liszt and Beethoven? That's a joke." You then proceeded to compare Liszt and Beethoven. It was, indeed, a hypocritical post -- but with the help of your most recent post, I now understand what you were trying to say.

[musicsdarkangel]

Perhaps you should say what you mean the first time around, as to avoid such confusion... you said "You guys have to be kidding me. Why are you comparing Liszt and Beethoven? That's a joke." You then proceeded to compare Liszt and Beethoven. It was, indeed, a hypocritical post -- but with the help of your most recent post, I now understand what you were trying to say.

I did say that the first time around.

[aquariuswb]

I did say that the first time around.

Again, you read only what you want to read. No, you did not make the distinction clear the first time around -- you merely stated that comparing Beethoven and Liszt (you didn't say on what grounds) is a joke, and then proceeded to compare them yourself. Why don't you just admit when you're wrong? This is getting tiresome.

[Regulus Medtner]

Is either of you familiar with any other piano sonatas?  Your little quarrel, amusing though it is, is also highly irrelevent! 

[decadent]

I agree, they are both major landmarks in the piano repertoire, and cannot really be compared.  it might be a little weird though to program two big virtuosic works that both end slowly and softly. 

haha, yes.  I did see one pianist programming like that though, with op.110 and 111, then the bminor.

I like my programming better.  Liszt's greatest creation, and Schubert's greatest (in my opinion) sonata.  However, Im not so sure which I would put first.  ending with Liszt is pessimistic, since the ending represents for me a death.  ending with Schubert's triumphant ending might be good.

[pianowelsh]

Whats the whole petty argument about guys. Both of these work are 'better than they can be played' and are monuments of the literature. I wouldnt recommend programming them in the same concert though - you'll jigger your fingers! 

[Rach3]

Ultimate recital program over 75 minutes? Quite possibly this:

Bach: Goldberg Variations
Chopin: Ballade no. 4
Beethoven: op. 101
Beethoven: op. 106 "Hammerklavier"

~Intermission~

Beethoven: op. 109
Beethoven: op. 110
Beethoven: op. 111

encore
Beethoven: Diabelli Variations

[lostinidlewonder]

This is a trick question. What is the Ultimate 75 min program? If we start trying to mention pieces we will be utterly confused, if we start to mention composers we will still be confused but not as much, but if we go back again a further layer, and discuss the meaning we need to convey with our program, then we are getting somewhere constructive.

What is the ultimate meaning to a piano program? I would think it would be a program which demonstrates how the keyboard sound evolved from its modest beginnings in the Baroque through to huge new innovation of sound in the Classical, to first experimentations of new modern sounds in the Romatntic and 20th, and then to the traditional modern music such as jazz, and also experimental music of the 21st/22nd Century (which can do all sorts of crazy things like altering the actual physical structure of the piano, especially its strings, putting things between them, striking them with different objects etc.

The task would be; to present a program that paves a clear, logical path through all the musical periods with the aim not being only to present all the different sounds piano can produce, but also to paint mental images with music to ressurect the memory of the composer and their emotion and character, this would move towards an ultimate piano program I would think. But I dont think any 75 mins could present this idea completely, you will always be neglecting something because of the small amount of time.

The music you play can tell a story which aims to enhance its appreciation. Those "story", "visual" pieces are the ones you want to choose but at the same times these pieces have to explore sounds of the piano which changed the way we thought about producing sound on the piano! Of course Beethoven's Sonata's stand out, but there are so many more, it is very personal I think. If there was one right answer then concert pianists would be playing the same thing again and again. Which sorta does happen, there are pieces you hear constantly and is a part of every serious concert peformers repetiore simply because of its popularity and demand to be heard.