Jazz Scale

[Jockzon]

Is there any good jazz scale
I only know the blues (C Eb Gb G Ab A Bb C)

[Dave_2004_G]

I'm pretty sure the blues scale is in fact C Eb F F# G Bb C

Dave

[BoliverAllmon]

some sweet jazz that we do is in school is any combination of these notes:

a,c,d,d#,e

boliver

[eddie92099]

I'm pretty sure the blues scale is in fact C Eb F F# G Bb C

As am I,
Ed

[BoliverAllmon]

also you can play the pentatonic scales.

boliver

[leemay001]

Is there any good jazz scale
I only know the blues (C Eb Gb G Ab A Bb C)

Where'd you pull the A and Ab from?

[matt_black]

Blues Scale in C

C, Eb, F, F#, G, Bb, C

[keyplyr]

Is there any good Jazz scales?

Yes, dozens... here's a couple charts:

Jazz Scales

Common Piano Scales

and of course the Virtual Piano

[Dave_2004_G]

If you're playing jazz you might wanna think about learning modes....a search on yahoo or something should come up with the info you need

Dave

[keyplyr]

Modes are just scales which may be played at any pitch.

Common Modes Chart

However, trying to fit a particular scale into the right playing situation is like looking for the right size hole to fit a peg into. It's self defeating since a scale will still come off as a scale and will not say anything except "hey, I found a place to put this scale!"

Try looking at it from a different angle. We use pieces of scales to get from one place to another, from one idea to another. They are like ladders going up or down to various inspirations.

While doing so, the harmony can be restated, re-thought. The scale can be used to add tension tones, textures, suspensions, resolves, balance opposing motives, new motives... the list is almost endless.

Rather than seeking to find a place to use a scale, choose to draw your inspiration from the melody, harmony or rhythm. Listen to it. What does it say to you? What do you want to reply? Then say it. Use various scales to navigate around these statements and say things in different ways.

[opera]

well, a jazzscale is something one may rather forget.
play  a   melody, and work on your timing

decide to play the music of somebody else, or your own music. If you decided the latter, a jazzscale doesn't help you much

[eddie92099]

Modes are just scales which may be played at any pitch.

No,
Ed

[glamfolk]

The melody's the thing.  Think of your scale as your alphabet.  Now  make melodic statements with it.  Don't forget to borrow notes from other scales as you see fit, the same way our languages borrow from one another.  They're your statements, after all.....

The blues scale is indeed C Eb F F# G Bb C.  But the thing that makes a blues scale a blues scale is that it contains notes that aren't in the equally-tempered  chromatic scale of western music.  The "blue notes" that help define a blues scale are actually between Eb and E and somewhere in the F-F#-G range, depending on who you talk to....  If you listen to people who use this scale extensively, they also throw in the D, E, and sometimes slide from G-G#-A and from Bb-B-C as well, making the thing pretty close to chromatic, except for that pesky minor 9, which is sometimes thrown in for effect, making your blues scale have closer to about 15 notes in it.   c'est ca.

[keyplyr]

The blues scale is indeed C Eb F F# G Bb C

Almost  

Jazz Scales Chart

Not a #4 but a b5

C Eb F Gb G Bb C
1 b3 4  b5 5 b7 8

[glamfolk]

whichever.  enharmonics aside, my point was that blue notes are in there somewhere.    

[cziffra]

Modes are just scales which may be played at any pitch.

that description applies for major and minor scales!  modes are something different entirely!  

each mode is in fact a separate sequence of intervals, each making a unique scale.  it is vastly incorrect to say that the modes are "C major starting on other notes" as some of my friends make a habit of doing- it is not c major at all, if it was c major, it would start on C and go t t s t t t s- the modes definitely do not do that.

[keyplyr]

whichever.  enharmonics aside, my point was that blue notes are in there somewhere

You answered it right there glamfolk. The flatted 5th is a blue note, the sharp forth is not. The only thing similar about these two altered tones is that they share relatively the same frequency. The role they play is entirely different.

that description applies for major and minor scales!  modes are something different entirely!  

each mode is in fact a separate sequence of intervals, each making a unique scale.  it is vastly incorrect to say that the modes are "C major starting on other notes" as some of my friends make a habit of doing- it is not c major at all, if it was c major, it would start on C and go t t s t t t s- the modes definitely do not do that.

cziffra - You have included my quote, however I have no idea what you are commenting on since that is not what I said.

The difference between the scale and the mode is, unlike scales of fixed pitch, modes are arrangements of tones and semitones which may be played at any pitch. So a mixolydian mode played in C has the same exact series of whole-steps and half-steps  as a mixolydian mode played in F# but it is stilled referred to as a mixolydian mode, where a scale played in C is named a C(minor, Major, whatever) and one played in F# is named an F#(minor, Major, whatever) .

Am I being understood better now? I've been teaching music harmony and theory for close to 30 years now and it's always a pleasure to explain music principals. However, sometimes it's something other than the subject at hand that is being misunderstood.

[cziffra]

um...

The difference between the scale and the mode is, unlike scales of fixed pitch, modes are arrangements of tones and semitones which may be played at any pitch.  

a scale is the same as a mode- it is a SEQUENCE OF INTERVALS.  you will find that a major scale, being a sequence of intervals, follows the same uses as any mode, which is also a sequence of intervals.  when you say "mixolydian" it is very similar to saying "major."  you can play a mixolydian on c, and you can play a major scale on C.  you can play a mixolydian on D, and you can play a major scale on D.  

there's no such thing as a scale of a fixed pitch, any more than there is a mode of a fixed pitch.  it's only fixed if a letter goes before it, like C major, or C mixolydian.  if it's just major, or mixolydian, there's nothin fixed about it.

to conclude
a major scale is: a specific arrangement of tones and semitones which may be played at any pitch
a minor scale is: a specific arrangement of tones and semitones which may be played at any pitch
a mode is: a specific arrangement of tones and semitones which may be played at any pitch

[glamfolk]

Wow.  we seem to have two threads going simultaneously.....

The flat fifth is the blue note, but I think that the augmented fourth is as well.   A "jazz" blues player might use the flatted fifth, while a "folk" blues player playing delta or chicago blues might favor the fourth bent up a bit.  I think there might be two notes in there depending on your idiom.  

about modes, shoudn't any scale be a mode?  the major (ionian) mode or the natural minor (aeolian) or the harmonic minor, or extrapolated to include blues or anything a composer might want to develop?  the classical modes are sort of defined by the white notes, are they not?  whites starting on c = ionian being a "major" mode, d = dorian, a minor mode, etc., but can't we expand that idea?  pentatonic modes?   On this same idea, I'm going to start a thread on key signatures after the holidays.  Merry Christmas everybody!

[cziffra]

about modes, shoudn't any scale be a mode

Exactly!  A scale and a mode are the same thing!

Again:
a major scale is:
a specific arrangement of tones and semitones which may be played at any pitch
a minor scale is:
a specific arrangement of tones and semitones which may be played at any pitch
a mode is:
a specific arrangement of tones and semitones which may be played at any pitch

the only difference is the actual arrangement, the fact is, they all ARE arrangements.  they are all a SEQUENCE of intervals.

if you have a sequence of intervals, you have a scale.  a mode is a scale, but it's given a different name because it isn't used as often.

[keyplyr]

cziffra - that's what I said. Again, I don't know what you're debating.  But anyway, glad everyone is in agreement.

- more on modes -
Modes are incarnations of a scales in which a certain note is taken as the root. Thus, each scale has as many different modes as it has different tones. In common usage, the major scale and the melodic minor scale are regarded as 'given' and the scales constructed with other notes as the root are called modes. The modes of the major scale have names (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian); these names were applied in the Renaissance and have no relationship to the Greek originals. Some of the melodic minor scale's modes have names in today's theory: mode 3, the augmented major 7th; mode 4, the lydian dominant; mode 6, the half-diminished; mode 7, the altered.

[cziffra]

does anyone else find this odd?:

kyplyr:  

The DIFFERENCE between the scale and the mode is, UNLIKE scales of fixed pitch, modes ARE ARRANGEMENTS OF TONES AND SEMITONES WHICH MAY BE PLAYED AT ANY PITCH

cziffra:

a major scale is:  
a specific arrangement of tones and semitones which may be played at any pitch  
a mode is:  
a specific arrangement of tones and semitones which may be played at any pitch  

kyplyr:

that's what I said.  I don't know what you're debating

are you blind?

[keyplyr]

Young man, I see from your profile that you are a child of 17. Therefore I will ignore your rudeness and consider your misguided comments as the folly of ignorant youth.

Someday when you are older and more serious about learning, you may purchase any number of my books either online or at the bookstore of over two dozen universities.

Gain a little class and do not direct your rude comments toward me again.

[cziffra]

i am sorry for being rude, but i honestly do not understand how in one message you can say scales and modes are different things, and then in another say they are the same.

the folly of ignorance?  Gain a little class and do not direct your rude hypocritical comments toward me again.  (i learnt that saying from a wise old musician)

[eddie92099]

Young man, I see from your profile that you are a child of 17. Therefore I will ignore your rudeness and consider your misguided comments as the folly of ignorant youth.

How dare you be so ageist. It is just as rude, if not more, than Cziffra's comments,
Ed

[Daevren]

Nooo modes are not scales. Modes are a set of intervals. All asymmetrical scales have modes but the most common ones are the modes of the major scale. Now C major has C D E F G A B, and G mixolydian has G A B C D E F G. So its the same scale. The point is that with G mixolydian G is the tonic, not C. And just starting a phrase on G doesn't mean anything. I like if every melody in C major starts and ends on the C. The chord we would resolve to in G mixolydian is G7. To get the actual sound of the mode you need chords, always. You can not just play the scale based on the mode.

But we should really compare C ionian with C mixolydian. Same tonic, almost all the intervals are the same except mixolydian has the minor 7th, Bb here.

Now if we have modal harmony then we never have I-V cadences. No functional harmony, no harmonic movement. We would have something like Em7-Dm7 like in Miles Davis "So What"(I think that song is more like Em11/Dm11) We clearly have D as a tonic and we have all those notes A B C D E F G so its D dorian. It isn't major(duh), (natural) minor has a iidim so it can only be modal harmony. Rule is we only call ionian ionian if we are talking modes.

Also the modes of the melodic and harmonic minor scale have alot of different names. I prefer the names like lydian #5 over augmented major 7th. The last one doesn't say anything about the #4. I also use the interval that is actually used in an extention. The 2nd isn't used, it collided with the tonic. So we have chords with 9ths. So I also like to call the modes locrain natural 9 instead of locrian natural 2 because these modes are used to indentifiy scales we used over altered chords. We want a scale with a natural ninth to play over our dim chord with a natural 9. We don't deal with the second. Of course they are the same but locrian natural 9 is closer to that what I actually use.

There are no real jazz scales. Of course scales are used but most jazz musicians use arpeggios. This is because of all the changes so a jazz musician approaches every chord on its own. With an arpeggio you instanty have all the constant notes, all the extentions that add colour and you can use chromatics to fill up all 12 notes at your disposal.

Also, jazz has no melody. Well it has but not compared to classical music. Jazz is about harmony and rhythm. Thats why they have all those dissonant colourful chords and all those chromatic passages. That answers the "Where'd you pull the A and Ab from?" That scale could be looked at as a Cm7 arpeggio with the chromatic passage Gb G A Ab in it. The penta blues scale is what matt_black says. But also that isn't official. Blues players play by ear. They arn't educated in music theory most of the time so they don't have names. There are some other variations of the pentatonic scale that are considered blues scales.

[cziffra]

modes are not scales. Modes are a set of intervals. All asymmetrical scales have modes but the most common ones are the modes of the major scale. Now C major has C D E F G A B, and G mixolydian has G A B C D E F G. So its the same scale

okay, i think there's a huge misunderstanding about the word scale.  it is being used in contexts which really do not make any sense:

Now C major has C D E F G A B, and G mixolydian has G A B C D E F G. So its the same scale

 

what? it isn't the same scale at all!  the first scale mentioned forms a pattern T T S T T T S and the second forms T T S T T S T.   there is as you can see a sharp difference in the two patterms, one ends with s t and the other with t s.  how can that be the same scale?

when you're talking about scales, THE ACTUAL NOTES INVOLVED are IRRELEVANT and therefore you DO NOT CONSIDER THEM.  the only thing you do consider is the distance between them- it is the DISTANCES that matter.  so saying that they're the same scale because they use the same notes is utter nonsense.  

modes are not scales. Modes are a set of intervals

again...what?  
what you're saying is the equivalent of : "a chord progression is not a cadence.  a cadence is when you go from one chord to another." it simply doesn't make sense.
a scale IS a set of intervals!  a mode is a scale and a scale is a mode!  anything that is  set of intervals is a scale and a mode...think about it, isn't the IONIAN MODE the STANDARD MAJOR SCALE?  that's because a scale and a mode are the same thing- they're a progression of intervals.  

don't get confused with what i'm saying- specific scales ARE NOT specific modes, i'm not saying A flat major IS d mixolydian, i'm saying the DEFINITION of a scale is the same as the DEFINITION of a mode.

[Daevren]

Scale
(skale)

A series of notes in ascending or descending order that presents the pitches of a key or mode, beginning and ending on the tonic of that key or mode.

Mode
(MODE)

A scale derived from a given one octave segment of an asymmetrical parent scale.

Yes a mode is a scale, but the definition is still different. It doesnt say a mode is a series of notes ascending or descending.

If you play me  C D E F G A B C then I say, thats in C major. If you play me G A B C D E F G then I say its C major. If you play me A B C D E F and then a G7 chord, then, only then, I say its G mixolydian. G mixolydian is A B C D E F G with G being the tonic. Only then you get the intervals of G mixolydian. G mixolydian wants to be C major if you give it enough room. You will hear C as the tonic, hear B as the leading note(also A minor is much stronger). Thats why only G A B C D E F G as a scale is just part of the mode G mixolydian.

The reason that I explain it this was is because people get confused when you don't. They don't get it. There are tons of people around that think they know what modes are. Just play a scale and end on a different note. Thats only the unimportant part of it. Like you say, the actual notes don't matter, its the intervals. And when you just play the scale and start and end on different notes then you don't get those intervals, well you get them but you don't hear them. I  could write something in all 7 modes deveried from the C major parent and they will all have the passage G A B C D E F G in it and only in one will actual be G mixolydian. But not because I play the G mixolydian scale but because I have a G mixolydian chord progression.  

[glamfolk]

For those who deal largely in non-applied theory, modes are probably not scales.  In the classroom they may be different, but in real life they're not.  For those who deal with other musicians and need a way to explain things clearly to one another, the are essentially the same.  Modes are scales that have been around long enough or are common enough to get their own names.  In my opinion, if you're in G, then GABCDEFG will never be a C-scale--it's just that you're flatting the 7 of your tonic's scale, and you're definitely in G if you keep coming back to that G chord.  

Jazz most certainly does have melody.  Most jazz folks know that only hacks fool around  playing arpeggios over every chord.  A musician is a musician no matter what their background or musical training.  In my experience,  blues and jazz players talk chord patterns/cadences and melody/counterpoint, while classical players talk about who they know and how good they're going to be.

[Daevren]

" In my opinion, if you're in G, then GABCDEFG will never be a C-scale--it's just that you're flatting the 7 of your tonic's scale, and you're definitely in G if you keep coming back to that G chord."

If you are in G, yes, if you return to the G chord, yes. But I am talking about just GABCDEFG. Is it in G? In C? You don't know. Is it mixolydian. Maybe. Does it sound like mixolydian. No it doesn't. Is it the mixolydian scale. Yes. Is it the mixolydian mode. No, it isn't. G is not clearly the root thus you don't get the intervals so no major third and flat 7. If you would constantly play phrases that end on a G, like in a raga, yes then its G mixo. And when you add a G drone note, then of course it is.

"Jazz most certainly does have melody. Most jazz folks know that only hacks fool around playing arpeggios over every chord."

No no no, thats not what I mean. Of course jazz has melody. If it hadn't it wouldn't be music.

I mean that most jazz players build their licks out of arpeggios rather than scales. Thats because of all the fast changes and the chord by chord approach. They don't play straight arps. They take arps as the basic structure. It gives you all the constant intervals on that chord. Then you can add thirds so you get 9ths 11th 13ths etc. They add colour. Then you can add chromatism. Much easier than scales. Its just too hard to find scales that work over all chords. You may end up with one scale on one chord. Thats why arps are better imo. Easy stable notes to outline the harmony and chromatism adds the rest.

And, well I am not a classical musician...

[glamfolk]

"If you are in G, yes, if you return to the G chord, yes. But I am talking about just GABCDEFG. Is it in G? In C? You don't know. Is it mixolydian. Maybe. Does it sound like mixolydian. No it doesn't. Is it the mixolydian scale. Yes. Is it the mixolydian mode. No, it isn't. G is not clearly the root thus you don't get the intervals so no major third and flat 7. "

Well said!  Something that's been missing from thie whole debate is the question of context.  Scale names are relevant to the key they're in.  The mode more or less describes that key.  

Here's a question:  In Chopin's Polonaise Op. 53, how would you name the scale in  mm. 46, 78, and 168?

[Daevren]

Bar 43 has Bbm to Ebm. The tonic is clearly Bb in both measure 43 and 44. The scale pattern ends on Bb. So first its Bb Natural Minor aka Bb Melodic Minor (Descending) which you call it in classical theory. Then the ascending pattern has a natural A and G(6 and 7). So its Bb Melodic Minor (Ascending). The other two are repeats so they are the same.

The function of this part in Bb minor would probably be the dominant of the dominant. Bbm resolves to Eb resolves to Ab.

I don't see you will see a real mode being used in music by chopin or other romantic composers. If one would use Bb locrian all those dissonant intervals would make it sound like 'crap', unromantic. He could have used dorian but he picked Bb melodic ascending because its the most common ascending scale with minor character.

You could modify measure 43 and make it modal by changing the Eb chord to Cm. But that would make the whole measure very static. Again not something we would have in romantic piano music. If you want true modes being used you should look at impressionism. I also think baroque has modal pieces. But they change the last few bars to ionian or aeolean so they can have a strong cadence and finish the piece so it sounds actually finished(leading note, maybe V-I).


Also alot of folk, world music, blues and jazz(not ii-V-I bebop but cool jazz), fusion and pop songs are modal. But most classical music, with its strong, 'correct' harmony, has no modes there. Remember, modes is no V-I's, no harmonic movement. It has static harmony.

Actually only mixolydian can have a V-I. But G-C would sound like C major, no b7. So it should be V-I7. Its probably the strongest modal cadence and this makes mixolydian probably the most used mode in western music. Alot of Beatles songs are mixo, so are alot of blues songs.

In my view, modes are more like keys than they are scales.

[glamfolk]

I've been thinking about the best way to describe it, and I think you've hit on it.  Modes are best described as keys, not scales.  Unfortunately, keys and modes are best described by their scales, hence the confusion.  

What a can of worms.

[Eek Lek Tik]

" Also, jazz has no melody. Well it has but not compared to classical music. Jazz is about harmony and rhythm. Thats why they have all those dissonant colourful chords and all those chromatic passages."

Jazz is a different musical language than classical but it does have melody.  Most jazz is based on songs or jazz tunes that have a typical song structure. With many jazz tunes having the same or similar harmonic structure, the melody is what differentiates them.  Jazz improvisation also has melody.

Those "dissonant" chords are just extensions of traditional harmony and many were used by composers of the classical genre. They are for the most part logical extensions of major minor and dominat chords.

We don't consider Mozart to be dissonant but we sure love those dominant thirteenth chords.