Two beginner's questions

[barnowl]

1, My teacher has told me I muddy my scales. (I run one note into the other playing them legato.) I have a hard time hearing this. So without telling her, when practicing, I switched to playing all my scales and Hanon exercises  nonlegato, figuring that after a couple of weeks of this, I'll hear the muddiness. Good idea?

2. She wants me to sound the highest voice in all the chords in Weeping Willow. But she didn't tell me how. Any suggestions?

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

Concerning the scales, you will never pull it off correctly without first addressing to the problem. I suggest, play them VERY slowly, wrists down, completely relaxed, carefully hitting each note for a clear sound with a raised finger(not too much). Your problem arises probably either because you try to play scales too fast, which is useless, and/or your fingers don't have enough individuality and with speed, you run on. What my teacher also has me do is, and is very helpfull(I probably can't explain it correctly), is that I hit the first note, readying my second finger in succession, and hit the next note 4 times, then on to the next. Then I do it in alternating fashion.

Concerning voicing in chords. This is tricky and requires practice. I do it by focusing on the intended finger and the sound comes out better. You could try this, grasp a chord and feel around the notes, play the chord many times, from as soft as you can to forte, and kind of direct more volume onto the 1st or 5th finger. In intervals it is easier because you can lift the finger higher and stike the note with more force, but with chords.... I am not an expert on this so far so I can't really help much. Sorry.

[bernhard]

1, My teacher has told me I muddy my scales. (I run one note into the other playing them legato.) I have a hard time hearing this. So without telling her, when practicing, I switched to playing all my scales and Hanon exercises  nonlegato, figuring that after a couple of weeks of this, I'll hear the muddiness. Good idea?

DS is right. In order to solve the problem you must investigate what is causing it. Muddiness is caused by pressing down a key and not releasing it as you play the next key.  You can try this by just playing CDEFG with fingers 12345 (so as to avoid the complication of passing the thumb). If you play the C and hold the key down, play the D and hold the key down and so on so that by the time you get to G all keys are pressed down, you will have created quite an overlap of harmonics!

This is the moment where one of the major superstitions in piano pedagogy raises its very ugly head. You will be told that you need to lift your fingers from one key as you depress the next one. This is of course non-sense, because you will create antagonistic muscle actions, and not only you will not be able to lift your fingers that much as you will feel cramps very soon. You will then be given exercises (I see you already wasting time with Hanon) to “strengthen the muscles in your fingers” (even though there are no muscle sin the fingers – and even though it has nothing to do with strength).

What you need to do is to learn to play a scale (or a five note passage as above) by using rotation of the forearm to lift the fingers. This is the motion every experienced pianist – and most likely your teacher too – use. Most of the time they do not have a clue they are doing it, and because the motions are so minimally elegant, chances are that you will not see it either.

Have a look here where I have described these things in some detail, and come back if you have further questions:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756
(unorthodox fingering for all major and minor scales plus an explanation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72166.html#msg72166
(Thumb over is a misnomer: it consists of co-ordinating four separate movements).

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7887.msg79326.html#msg79326
(why the lifting of the 4th finger is a non-problem)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7341.msg114168.html#msg114168
(repeated note-groups for difficult passages – correct technique is never uncomfortable – rotation as the solution to 5th finger weakness – criticism to misguided technical exercises – trusting the unconscious)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=17061.new#new
(description of thumb movement when descending rh scales)

Unfortunately, this is the sort of thing that requires someone who actually knows these things (and not just someone who “can do it” but does not know how they actually do it) to show you and correct your motions.

2. She wants me to sound the highest voice in all the chords in Weeping Willow. But she didn't tell me how. Any suggestions?

Yes, have a look here to understand the general problem and the basic solutions:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2973.msg25970.html#msg25970
(How to create a cantabile effect – several approaches: creating a mental image, outlining, the three basic ways to bring out a melody)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3530.msg31559.html#msg31559
(how to bring out a melody – 3 different ways – Importance of a mental representation: hear in your mind and the fingers will comply)

As for your specific problem, I suggest you tackle it by flowing the steps below:

1.   Simplify your score by getting rid of all the chord notes except the top (melody) note. Now it will be easy to bring out the melody since there will be no other notes to mask it. Play this new score repeated times – your aim is to memorise the sound of the melody.

2.   Now add to each melodic note one and only one note of the chord you suppressed. Again play it repeated times and try to hear the melody. If necessary alternate between this step and the previous ones so as to refresh your memory of the melody.

3.   Keep adding the deleted chord notes and at each step make sure you can hear the melody clearly. If you loose it, go back one (or two) steps to remind yourself how the melody went.

This is mostly a mental exercise: If you can truly hear the melody in your mind, your fingers will (perhaps to your great amazement) find a way to realize what is in your mind.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[steve jones]

I find that practicing B Major helps with getting the right motion, as the notes seem to fit under the fingers much better. I used to struggle getting an pace in C Major. But since Iv been doing B Major, I am noticing vast improvements in all my scales.

I dont know why, but my hands just seems to float over the B Major with ease. C is still the hardest mind - passing the thumb is so tricky with this scale imo.

SJ

[bernhard]

I dont know why, but my hands just seems to float over the B Major with ease. C is still the hardest mind - passing the thumb is so tricky with this scale imo.

SJ

I will tell you why. 

If you look at your hands, you may be very surprised to realize that the fingers are of different lengths (a lot of exercise books – Hanon, Cortot, Dohananyi state as their main aim to “equalize the fingers”; I wonder how this is going to be accomplished. Are the exercises going to make the fingers grow to the same length? I think surgery may be the best option here if one truly wants equal fingers).

If you now look at the  white keys, (C major scale) they are perfectly spaced out. No wonder it is the most difficult scale to play. So why do most teachers assign it as the first scale? Because it is easy to understand and remember: No need to remember which black/white key to press: it is all white keys.

However even this most difficult of all scales becomes a piece of cake once you figure out that you must move your hand forwards to bring the thumb and little finger in (as opposed to bending at the wrist) and backwards to accommodate the extra length of the middle fingers. Once this back and forth motion of the arm is incorporated into the scale playing one will not experience any difficulty anymore.

The B major scale (and Db and F#) on the other hand has a pattern of black and white keys that conforms perfectly to the hand contour. Playing these scales comes naturally. And because the black keys are on a different vertical level, passing the thumb under is easier. However, if one relearns scales by passing the thumb over (a misnomer if ever was one), then all scales are equally easy.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72166.html#msg72166
(Thumb over is a misnomer: it consists of co-ordinating four separate movements).

This is also the reason why a lot of romantic composers writing frighteningly difficult pieces used keys with four or more sharps/flats. It makes the playing very easy and comfortable (and the sight reading – if you don´t sightread well – a complete nightmare). If you don´t believe me, try playing Chopin Op. 25 no. 1 transposed into C major.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[ingagroznaya]

Barnowl,
I am amused by how much people wrote...  Pick up your fingers as you play your scales.
You do pick up your feet as you walk, so pick up your fingers.

I have no idea what Weeping Willow stands for. I guess she wants you to play the top note louder.

[ingagroznaya]

Dear Bernhard,
did you say somewhere you give 15 minutes lessons? Looking at your posts,  I just don't see it. 

[mike_lang]

1, My teacher has told me I muddy my scales. (I run one note into the other playing them legato.) I have a hard time hearing this. So without telling her, when practicing...

I just want to address the point of not telling her.  In early stages, your teacher should know everything you are doing in practice.  She cannot correct it if you do not tell her what is wrong.  She most likely has several solutions, and you would receive one if you were only to ask.

Best,
ML

[bernhard]

Dear Bernhard,
did you say somewhere you give 15 minutes lessons? Looking at your posts,  I just don't see it. 

Have a look here for the full story:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2260.msg19270.html#msg19270
(Dear Bernhard thread – Pieces leading up to the revolutionary)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[barnowl]

Oh Ingagroznaya, you have not discovered Joplin Rags!

If you have Internet Explorer browser, please go to...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000005IYF/ref=pd_sr_ec_ir_m/102-0589077-4478555?n=5174

...scroll down and listen to the samples of ragtime music.  Weeping Willow is there, but, like all of the samples  you will hear only a portion of the first themes. Oftentimes, as in WW, the other themes are even prettier.

I introduced my teacher, a young lady from Russia, to rags in general and Weeping Willow, in particular. She now likes rags immensely and is flat out nuts for the second last Weeping Willow theme (which you won't hear in the sample).

But please listen to them all. Rags are just wonderful!

Maple Leaf Rag might knock you out — as it has millions of others. In fact it still thrills me to the moon.

I suggest the IE broswer, because when I use my Firefox browser, I cannot play the music. The site asks for a plug-in which (as far as I know) doesn't exist. I would offer to make you a copy of the CD, but when I do this for my teacher, she doesn't hear the music on her player. For reasons I can't explain, her husband has to make the copy on his computer, from my original. Very weird.

[barnowl]

I just want to address the point of not telling her.  In early stages, your teacher should know everything you are doing in practice.  She cannot correct it if you do not tell her what is wrong.  She most likely has several solutions, and you would receive one if you were only to ask.

Best,
ML

You're absolutely right.  I did tell her. I am back to legato.   

[ingagroznaya]

Have a look here for the full story:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2260.msg19270.html#msg19270
(Dear Bernhard thread – Pieces leading up to the revolutionary)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

I took the time to read it before writing what I wrote. I am just teasing you, Bernhard. Can you be teased? You write such an in depth posts, it's hard to imagine you cutting a lesson off after 15 minutes or working with very young kids.

[bernhard]

I took the time to read it before writing what I wrote. I am just teasing you, Bernhard. Can you be teased? You write such an in depth posts, it's hard to imagine you cutting a lesson off after 15 minutes or working with very young kids.

I type fast.

[ingagroznaya]

Ha ha ha ha, I've noticed.

[timothy42b]

I type fast.

Yes, and you're right handed.

(just a guess, but a plausible one based on some old posts.  I'm not simply playing the 81% odds.) 

[bernhard]

Yes, and you're right handed.

(just a guess, but a plausible one based on some old posts.  I'm not simply playing the 81% odds.) 

Actually, I am ambidextrous.

[menancyandsam]

2. I suggest that youdon't strain youre voice but try to sing loudly. from there work youre way down to where youre teacher tells you to be.javascript:void(0);
Smiley

[timothy42b]

Actually, I am ambidextrous.

Well, then my logic is wrong.

Here's my incorrect reasoning. 

We know that in most animal species, roughly 50% of the individuals show a strong handedness, and 50% do not.  Of those that do, 50% are right handed and 50% left.  Humans are different.  90% show strong preference, and of those that do, 90% are right handed.  So you could make a guess that everybody is right handed, and be right 81% of the time (90% times 90%). 

But what does this have to do with typing?

Bernhard in a long ago post mentioned liking the dvorak keyboard.  The dvorak keyboard is known to offer significant advantages over the qwerty, but has never caught on due to the long qwerty tradition.  However, lefthanders mostly insist the advantages of dvorak accrue solely to right handers, and the dvorak is actually worse for a lefthander than qwerty.  I'm righthanded myself and can't give you personal experience, but having a left handed child has led me to do some reading and that is what the lefties say.  The young lefties, anyway, the old lefties ..........aren't.  Therefore, Bernhard liking dvorak is some evidence he might be righthanded.  To know how much evidence, we'd have to dredge up Baye's Theorem. 

[bernhard]

Well, then my logic is wrong.

Here's my incorrect reasoning. 

We know that in most animal species, roughly 50% of the individuals show a strong handedness, and 50% do not.  Of those that do, 50% are right handed and 50% left.  Humans are different.  90% show strong preference, and of those that do, 90% are right handed.  So you could make a guess that everybody is right handed, and be right 81% of the time (90% times 90%). 

But what does this have to do with typing?

Bernhard in a long ago post mentioned liking the dvorak keyboard.  The dvorak keyboard is known to offer significant advantages over the qwerty, but has never caught on due to the long qwerty tradition.  However, lefthanders mostly insist the advantages of dvorak accrue solely to right handers, and the dvorak is actually worse for a lefthander than qwerty.  I'm righthanded myself and can't give you personal experience, but having a left handed child has led me to do some reading and that is what the lefties say.  The young lefties, anyway, the old lefties ..........aren't.  Therefore, Bernhard liking dvorak is some evidence he might be righthanded.  To know how much evidence, we'd have to dredge up Baye's Theorem. 

Statistics is damn lying and non-parametric statistics is damn cheating.

Er… I was born right-handed, but I practised hard (well, actually not that hard), and now I am ambidextrous (nurture over nature?).

So your logic may be right (oops) and your reasoning may be correct after all.

Best wishes
Bernhard.

[ingagroznaya]

Bernhard,
I'm sorry for being so anal. I had to look up "ambidextrous".

Main Entry: am·bi·dex·trous
Function: adjective
Pronunciation: "am-bi-'dek-str&s
Etymology: Late Latin ambidexter, from Latin ambi- + dexter right-hand -- more at DEXTER
1 : using both hands with equal ease
2 : unusually skillful : VERSATILE
3 : characterized by duplicity : DOUBLE -dealing
- am·bi·dex·trous·ly adverb

Where is this "ambidextrous" came into the conversation? Are you Pianistimo too?
Barnowl, thank you for your sujustion. I was fortunate enough to discover Joplin's Rags, but I can't play more then one. I'd rather do Cherny. With dynamics.

[bernhard]

Bernhard,
I'm sorry for being so anal.

Apologies accepted.

Are you Pianistimo too?

I don´t know. Multiple personalities are not aware  of the existence of the others - until something dreadful (like murder) happens (at least in the movies, that is).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[pianistimo]

oh.  thanks bernhard.  after all those times i backed u up.  ur just mad because i said if we did what u did - we'd be walking around with our shoelaces untied.  i think bernhard practices piano technique on the computer keyboard.  that's why his left hand is catching up to his right so quickly.

unfortunately, i cannot transfer this to the keyboard - and when i don't practice - become extremly deficient in the left hand - therefore obviously refuting that my multiple personalities?  somehow contribute to a wild euphoria of the left hand when i play (although it has happened when i am up to 6-7 hours of practice).

if i really wanted to improve myself a lot - i'd start working on ravels concerto for left hand.  if i could play that really well - i'd have come another year in my repertoire and technique improvement.  surprisingly, ragtime helps ur left hand a lot.  i think that barnowl may have the best left hand technique of us all.  it's really an ability to let go with the rh and look once in a while to make sure ur going to hit the correct notes in the lh.  barnowl is probably a pilot, too.

[ingagroznaya]

I don´t know. Multiple personalities are not aware  of the existence of the others - until something dreadful (like murder) happens (at least in the movies, that is).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Bernhard, it's genuinely bugs me.  Let's start taking them down one at a time?

[ingagroznaya]

Multiples are fun and fine, but nothing will benefit this place more then a murder. Can you imagine: " Have not you heard of the murder on the Piano Street?!" I mean this place is slightly boring. At least the student/teachers side. We talked about Cherny for few days... Murder is overdue, don't you agree?

Perhaps we can start with Galonia for never using Op 636 or 849. m1469 looks good too, but that's my personal preference.