Ian Pace, how good is he?

[sevencircles]

I checked out his webpage and his repertoire seems to be superhuman.

I have to hear him play them live before I believe that he is as good as some people say.

Anyone have video- or liveclip of him playing  those superhuman works?

[stevie]

average tech, average musicality, insane sight reading skills

[sevencircles]

Average Technique?

I bet that his recordings are pretty edited then.

[jre58591]

i have a recital where he performs regular works such as rachmaninoff, brahms, and bartok. he seems to be pretty musical to me. i also have some of his finnissy pieces, so that shows that he has great technique and can play pretty much anything. i think he is one of the greatest and most versatile pianists alive.

[BoliverAllmon]

anyone have any recordings?

[jre58591]

anyone have any recordings?

yeah, but i dont have much. i have a live recital where he and igor roma play some 2 piano works at the concertgebouw. i also have a 2 CD set of him playing some finnissy. its all amazing stuff. does anyone have any of his CDs where he plays romantic works?

[Kassaa]

yeah, but i dont have much. i have a live recital where he and igor roma play some 2 piano works at the concertgebouw. i also have a 2 CD set of him playing some finnissy. its all amazing stuff. does anyone have any of his CDs where he plays romantic works?

Igor Roma is a cool guy, he gave a masterclass some months ago. He has a very  cool teaching style and is an expert on Liszt.

[stevie]

i have a recital where he performs regular works such as rachmaninoff, brahms, and bartok. he seems to be pretty musical to me. i also have some of his finnissy pieces, so that shows that he has great technique and can play pretty much anything. i think he is one of the greatest and most versatile pianists alive.

finnissy is no way to judge technique, its only a way to judge improvisational skills.

[jre58591]

finnissy is no way to judge technique, its only a way to judge improvisational skills.

why is that? i dont think i understand you.

[stevie]

it does demand dex, but the main difficulty is coordination of utter randomness

this demands a great brain and sightreading skills, but its no way of judging technique

if someone can play 'the hardest piece' is says virtually nothing for their tehcnical ability

HOW something is played is the key

[sevencircles]

i have a live recital where he and igor roma play some 2 piano works at the concertgebouw

What did they play?


Finnisy´s hardest workest seems incredible hard from technical standpoint and I can´t see how anyone can play them accurately and uptempo with an average technique.

[ahinton]

I imagine that one prompt for this thread may have been the repertoire list advertised on Mr Pace's website; I think that it is at least fair to say that he has actually performed everything in that list, even if he may have performed some of the items very infrequently. Some people might like to take note of that fact; it is, after all, quite a good idea and helpfully informative to the reader that artists' advertised repertoire lists be genuine.

Best,

Alistair

[stevie]

What did they play?


Finnisy´s hardest workest seems incredible hard from technical standpoint and I can´t see how anyone can play them accurately and uptempo with an average technique.

noone plays them accurately, finnissy himself agrees than in many cases notes should be approximated in favour of dynamics and tempo.

[contrapunctus]

I heard he can play Comme Le Vent faster than written.

[stevie]

I heard he can play Comme Le Vent faster than written.

where the *** did you hear that?

[jre58591]

I heard he can play Comme Le Vent faster than written.

id have to hear a recording to believe it.

[sevencircles]

I heard he can play Comme Le Vent faster than written.

Almost Impossible to do that clean even on a nonweighted digitalkeyboard!

In fact I am pretty sure that Pace can´t play more then half of his listed repertoire accurately and uptempo even if you put the music in front of him and turned the pages when needed.

[ahinton]

id have to hear a recording to believe it.

Hearing would indeed be believing - yet, even if true, what would it really prove?

I once heard a live performance of Op. 10 No. 2 with what I believe to have been at least 99%  textual accuracy at a whisker over crotchet = 200 and if I never hear it again it'll be too soon - it was utterly awful. I won't name the artist concerned - except that I will at least confirm that it was not Ian Pace.

Best,

Alistair

[stevie]

Hearing would indeed be believing - yet, even if true, what would it really prove?

I once heard a live performance of Op. 10 No. 2 with what I believe to have been at least 99%  textual accuracy at a whisker over crotchet = 200 and if I never hear it again it'll be too soon - it was utterly awful. I won't name the artist concerned - except that I will at least confirm that it was not Ian Pace.

Best,

Alistair

 

vadim rudenko?

[ahinton]

vadim rudenko?

No.

Best,

Alistair

[stevie]

then do please name names, this is a freak occurence.

alistair, do you know the meaning of the word superhuman?

super, meaning above - and superhuman meaning 'above human'

playing comme le vent at that tempo is beyond and above just about every known human.

thus - it is truly superhuman, and to not appreciate it is just disgusting to me.

[mephisto]

then do please name names, this is a freak occurence.

alistair, do you know the meaning of the word superhuman?

super, meaning above - and superhuman meaning 'above human'

playing comme le vent at that tempo is beyond and above just about every known human.

thus - it is truly superhuman, and to not appreciate it is just disgusting to me.

Ali G(H) will destroy this post.

Anyway please tell the name

[ahinton]

alistair, do you know the meaning of the word superhuman?

Of course - so there was no need for you to continue

super, meaning above - and superhuman meaning 'above human'

You then wrote that

playing comme le vent at that tempo is beyond and above just about every known human.

Whether or not that is the case, I was merely questioning the value and/or necessity of doing so.

thus - it is truly superhuman, and to not appreciate it is just disgusting to me.

Then please feel free to go ahead and be disgusted - but, while so doing, please do bear in mind that, so far, this is all based purely upon hearsay rather than the experiece of recorded evidence...

Best,

Alistair

[stevie]

if one has the ability to do so, its only their responsibility to do it.

[ahinton]

if one has the ability to do so, its only their responsibility to do it.

Now, let's see.

First of all, this lacks sense because of your inconsistency in pronoun use ("one" / "their").

Secondly, it lacks sense because, whilst you appear to be referring to previously posted material, you do not actually quote it before making your point, so it is unclear to what you allude when using the word "so".

Thirdly, the fact that someone has the ability to do something does not necessarily confer upon that person the "responsibility" to do it.

In addition, we still appear to be discussing a matter of hearsay for which no evidence has yet been supplied...

Perhaps you could explain yourself a little more clearly...

Best,

Alistair

[stevie]

when someone has a physical quality which is 1 in 100 billion ; it is more important to display that ability than to display any standard interpretation ; which more people have a chance of doing anyway.

[ahinton]

when someone has a physical quality which is 1 in 100 billion ; it is more important to display that ability than to display any standard interpretation ; which more people have a chance of doing anyway.

OK - but, to return to the specific context here, even if Mr Pace is capable of playing "Comme Le Vent" faster than written (of which we cannot yet be certain) - and even if he has also actually done so publicly (of which we also cannot yet be certain - and the one does not necessarily presume the other in any case), why would it be "important" to do this if it would not only contravene the composer's apparent intentions but also amount to little more than a circus trick or stunt as distinct from a musical performance as such things are generally understood?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

OK - so what I'm about to write is arguably not entiely on-topic, but since two of the aspects of Mr Pace's repertoire that have been noted are (a) the sheer difficulty of some of the contemporary works in his repertoire list and (b) the comprehensiveness of that list, has anyone noticed the singular absence from it of any composer known for writing especially challenging piano music?

Best,

Alistair

[thracozaag]

OK - but, to return to the specific context here, even if Mr Pace is capable of playing "Comme Le Vent" faster than written (of which we cannot yet be certain) - and even if he has also actually done so publicly (of which we also cannot yet be certain - and the one does not necessarily presume the other in any case), why would it be "important" to do this if it would not only contravene the composer's apparent intentions but also amount to little more than a circus trick or stunt as distinct from a musical performance as such things are generally understood?

Best,

Alistair

  Because for some people, that constitutes a great artistic achievement; go figure.

koji

[ahinton]

  Because for some people, that constitutes a great artistic achievement; go figure.

What I "figure" is that if, for "some people", performing a piece whose composer already asks to be played at breakneck pace (sorry!) at a speed even greater than that which he prescribes indeed "constitutes a great artistic achievement", then so be it, but at the same time it is not unreasonable to suggest that many "other people" may take the very different view that such an achievement, however remarkable, would be one of tremendous physical athleticism and mental control and co-ordination alone, as distinct from one which may necessarily also encompass artistic merit.

That said, however, we are still dealing with speculation here, since no one has yet put forward evidence that this actually occurred; I'm not saying that it hasn't happened, but I do think it prudent that any comments about it bear in mind that it remains hearsay until evidence is provided.

Best,

Alistair

[ramseytheii]

What I "figure" is that if, for "some people", performing a piece whose composer already asks to be played at breakneck pace (sorry!) at a speed even greater than that which he prescribes indeed "constitutes a great artistic achievement", then so be it, but at the same time it is not unreasonable to suggest that many "other people" may take the very different view that such an achievement, however remarkable, would be one of tremendous physical athleticism and mental control and co-ordination alone, as distinct from one which may necessarily also encompass artistic merit.

That said, however, we are still dealing with speculation here, since no one has yet put forward evidence that this actually occurred; I'm not saying that it hasn't happened, but I do think it prudent that any comments about it bear in mind that it remains hearsay until evidence is provided.

Best,

Alistair

Frankly I don't think any of this discussion matters until we hear this guy play Hammerklavier at half=180.  After all the classics are the true test of all.

Oh, by the way, I thought you made a good point about "composer known for writing especially challenging piano music" being absent from Ian Pace's repertoire, but then I checked his repertoire on the home page and now don't know what you are talking about.  Liszt, Ravel, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev etc are all included there!

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

Although I don't see any classics in this fellow's discography.  Somehow his repertoire is not believable, or at least so huge as to be not impressive.  If someone has learnt the entire classical repertoire, and has a list from A-Z of composers of modern music whose music they also play, I doubt they have spent much time making a deep and lasting investigation of the music they play.  Why should I judge though?  I've never heard em.
But I did go to hear the well-known pianist Robert Taub play recently for Babbitt's 90th birthday.  In addition to works by Babbitt he included Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, Waldstein, and Scriabin 9th.  I had never heard of him before, and reading his bio beforehand I was suitably impressed, with James Levine this, world premier that, Munich, London, Paris, New York, whatever.  I was then suitably shocked to hear him hack his way through the Bach with memory lapse after memory lapse; make a total mess of the Scriabin, play a beautiful Babbitt (did he play the right notes? does it matter?), and churn out a performance of the Waldstein worthy of a second-year student at the Royal College.  What a disappointment!  Why does it happen so often, that those claiming such a devotion to modern music, make such a hacking mess of the classics?  Scriabin is not necessarily a "classic" in the sense of Bach or Beethoven, but this charlatan couldn't even play his way through that particular wet paper bag.  I'm guessing the same may hold true for this guy, except he probably has better technique.  I don't think I would drop 30 bucks to go hear him play Carnaval, or even Prokofiev 7th sonata for that matter.  It's a little bit overkill!

Walter Ramsey

[stevie]

  Because for some people, that constitutes a great artistic achievement; go figure.

koji

to some, artistic. but to all surely its a great *pianistic* accomplishment.

OK - but, to return to the specific context here, even if Mr Pace is capable of playing "Comme Le Vent" faster than written (of which we cannot yet be certain) - and even if he has also actually done so publicly (of which we also cannot yet be certain - and the one does not necessarily presume the other in any case), why would it be "important" to do this if it would not only contravene the composer's apparent intentions but also amount to little more than a circus trick or stunt as distinct from a musical performance as such things are generally understood?

Best,

Alistair

look at olympic atheletes - dare call them 'circus tricksters'?

pianists are atheletes too, simply enough

and the thing is, especially with comme le vent, the faster it is - the better it sounds *musically* too!

[thalbergmad]

  Because for some people, that constitutes a great artistic achievement; go figure.

koji

I guess it is similar to Dreyschock playing the "Revolutionary" in octaves.

A stunt yes, but bloody exciting.

Thal

[m]

Frankly I don't think any of this discussion matters until we hear this guy play Hammerklavier at half=180. 

What a strange logic! If this guy plays Hammerklavier at let's say half=176, would it neccessarily mean it is bad?

look at olympic atheletes - dare call them 'circus tricksters'?

pianists are atheletes too, simply enough

Yeah, let's turn all the conservatories into a part of physical education division at the Universities.
Then make some competitions with subdivisions, something like:
1) the fastest athlete-pianist
2) the loudest athlete-pianist
3) the most musical athlete_pianist
4) the most inspired athlete-pianist
5) the most suffering athlete-pianist, who doesn't want to be an athlete, but want's just to play music and be just a pianist. Needless to say, due to existing educational system, however, s/he forced to be called athlete, anyways.

and the thing is, especially with comme le vent, the faster it is - the better it sounds *musically* too!

Somehow, I felt like replying to this one, but don't really know what to say. So here it goes...

[ahinton]

to some, artistic. but to all surely its a great *pianistic* accomplishment.

I know what you mean - and I am not arguing with you completely - but it does rather depend on the breadth of your interpretation of the term "pianistic"...

look at olympic atheletes - dare call them 'circus tricksters'?

No, of course not.

pianists are atheletes too, simply enough

Yes - but whereas athletes per se are providing a visual impression first and foremost, pianists have a different agenda; they are principally showing off the music, not their physical prowess.

and the thing is, especially with comme le vent, the faster it is - the better it sounds *musically* too!

Up to a point - but the moment that intelligibility is sacrificed, the moment its excitement begins to ebb away, at whatever speed. I know well of the kind of velocity-driven excitement of which you write - and of which there are undoubtedly quite a few examples in Alkan, not least the E flat minor study that forms the finale of the Symphonie, the C minor study from Op. 76 and the finale of the Grand Duo for violin and piano. In the finale of my own fifth piano sonata there is a relentless extended passage marked "Alkanique" which is intended to sound almost as though it is being played too fast, yet this and the other examples I cited have to remain absolutely clear and intelligible for the full effect of their hyper-kinetic excitement to be realised and felt (well, that excitement is patently present in the Alkan examples; I can't really speak for mine - especially in such exalted company - beyond what I hope for...).

Best,

Alistair

[contrapunctus]

where the *** did you hear that?

I heard that from Mr Soliloquy over an AIM conversation. He keeps personal correspondence with Mr Pace. Some of you may doubt Mr Soliloquy credibility, so why doesn't someone email Mr Pace and ask him personally?


Also, I believe Mr Pace's repertoire that is represented on his website may actually be a list of works he has previously learned or performed, it is not a list of works that he can play instantly, but with a short preparation.

[mephisto]

In the finale of my own fifth piano sonata there is a relentless extended passage marked "Alkanique" which is intended to sound almost as though it is being played too fast, yet this and the other examples I cited have to remain absolutely clear and intelligible for the full effect of their hyper-kinetic excitement to be realised and felt (well, that excitement is patently present in the Alkan examples; I can't really speak for mine - especially in such exalted company - beyond what I hope for...).

Best,

Alistair

Sorry to be so OT, but how us you harmonic language?

[ahinton]

Sorry to be so OT, but how us you harmonic language?

I really cannot comment intelligibly about that, except to say that it is (to me, at any rate) tonal; indeed, the passage concerned bears a key signature for part of it...

Sorry - maybe I shouldn't even have mentioned it at all...

Best,

Alistair

[stevie]

What a strange logic! If this guy plays Hammerklavier at let's say half=176, would it neccessarily mean it is bad?

Yeah, let's turn all the conservatories into a part of physical education division at the Universities.
Then make some competitions with subdivisions, something like:
1) the fastest athlete-pianist
2) the loudest athlete-pianist
3) the most musical athlete_pianist
4) the most inspired athlete-pianist
5) the most suffering athlete-pianist, who doesn't want to be an athlete, but want's just to play music and be just a pianist. Needless to say, due to existing educational system, however, s/he forced to be called athlete, anyways.


Somehow, I felt like replying to this one, but don't really know what to say. So here it goes...

is this supposed to be sarcasm? because it makes sense to me

I know what you mean - and I am not arguing with you completely - but it does rather depend on the breadth of your interpretation of the term "pianistic"...
No, of course not.
Yes - but whereas athletes per se are providing a visual impression first and foremost, pianists have a different agenda; they are principally showing off the music, not their physical prowess.
Up to a point - but the moment that intelligibility is sacrificed, the moment its excitement begins to ebb away, at whatever speed. I know well of the kind of velocity-driven excitement of which you write - and of which there are undoubtedly quite a few examples in Alkan, not least the E flat minor study that forms the finale of the Symphonie, the C minor study from Op. 76 and the finale of the Grand Duo for violin and piano. In the finale of my own fifth piano sonata there is a relentless extended passage marked "Alkanique" which is intended to sound almost as though it is being played too fast, yet this and the other examples I cited have to remain absolutely clear and intelligible for the full effect of their hyper-kinetic excitement to be realised and felt (well, that excitement is patently present in the Alkan examples; I can't really speak for mine - especially in such exalted company - beyond what I hope for...).

Best,

Alistair

comme le vent is written in such a way that it is intelligible at such high speeds...

Yes - but whereas athletes per se are providing a visual impression first and foremost, pianists have a different agenda; they are principally showing off the music, not their physical prowess.

well, this appears to be the major discussion point..

i dont advocate going AFAP all the time, all i have is - that in pieces which are very fast already, if you have a unique ability to go faster than others, then you should.

i dont think is should always be done, but on the other hand i think it can often sound great.

is it REALLY such a disservice to the composer (alkan, chopin etc) to treat their music as a racing course aswell as a piece of music?

[ahinton]

is it REALLY such a disservice to the composer (alkan, chopin etc) to treat their music as a racing course aswell as a piece of music?

I think you've effectively answered your own question there...

Best,

Alistair

[stevie]