detention

[Tash]

i was thinking about when i become a teacher, and giving detentions. i was trying to think of the most painful kind of detention i could give as a music teacher, something educational, because otherwise it's just a waste of time. i was thinking making them do aural for a whole lunchtime, or notation, or sightsinging. reckon that'd kill them ?!!

[prometheus]

Do you think painful detention helps?

I thought about this, about what I would do if I were a teacher.

If I would have a new class during the first week or so and one, note one, person would disrupt the teaching of the whole class I would send that person off. I cannot teach while some are messing around. Then I would make that person come back and teach her or him personally so that they can't get around learning the subject. I then assume the person will become interested and motivated. If not then I have a problem. I cannot have a person in my class I am unable to teach anything.

If more people have to be send off then I have a problem too. It would not be realistically possible to be a private teacher of every problem child.

My experience is that both the students and the teachers do not care. The teachers don't care if they teach well or not. They will probably care about their strong students but when it comes to the trouble-students they will just have to manage them as effectively as possible. A teacher doesn't, and can't, care for such a kid.

As for the children being punished. They also don't care. They don't care about wasting time. These children do not care about anything yet. They aren't adults so they aren't 'fully human' yet. Also, all humans are irrational, children even more so.

If a teacher tells a studentto copy several pages from a book several times then they will not care about what the book is actually about, they will just mindlessly copy it. The teacher may thing that she or he is doing something useful by letting the studends copy from the textbook but it really isn't. These kinds of children are not able to teach themselves, at all.
Instead you need to kindle the interest and this can only be done by giving personal attention. This will take a lot of time and energy from the teacher. And this is something he isn't usually payed for.

If this do not work then you can do it the old way; force your will unto the child by intimidation. But the point is that this stops working during teenage years.

So if a child is inbetween these two points I don't see how one can teach such a child.

[mike_lang]

How about you rearrange Bach's first invention with parallel fifths, and make the student learn it (memorized!)?

Eww...

[pianistimo]

if i were giving a student detention - it would mean they couldn't do anything dealing with music or piano.  i'd have a long yardstick and everytime they got close to having fun making music - i'd wack them (just like ingagroznya does).  she gave me the idea.

[musik_man]

Put some Wagner on in the Background.

[gilad]

i was a terrible student in primary school, i had  detention every second for a year. There was detention book that used to float around the class rooms, i was always looking for it, i had detentions scheduled weeks in advance. it was a nightmare. it got worse when the school started an after care centre. I was forced to go, that was a year of staying after school for 3 hours everyday. My grades did not improve at all. I was considered the stupidest kid in school. I think i was a genius, i managed to do no work at all under the supervision of my teachers for an entire year. Detention!

[Bob]

Most painful?       They might not know much about aural skills.  My

students don't.  The most I would ever do in that direct is do-re-mi.   

Sight-singing?   

Work with the regular classroom teacher.  Bring in some extra math homework --

You make the regular teacher happy because you review.  The student doesn't

like it.  And you don't "abuse" music by using music as a punishment -- You

use math instead.

Ultimately, you don't want to have to punish.  You want them involved.  Get

them all involved and active on something.  Something is better than having

them off task.

Use rewards as much as possible instead of punishment.

With little kids, you can also pull them out of the group and send them to the

corner. 

Nothing will work for everyone. 

Try to use the regular classroom teacher as much as possible.  Use their

classroom management system if you can.  Use a broad school-wide system if

there is one.  The students already are "trained" (like brainwashed) into

following these other systems.

Try to avoid sending a student up to the next level as much as possible.  It

makes you look weak as a teacher.  If and when you do, make sure it's very

justified, make sure you have it documented, make sure you have done lots of

other (documented) things before sending a kid to the office.  Once you send

them to the office, phone home to inform the parents -- Strike first and

create YOUR impression in that parents mind.  Same with the admin and other

teachers -- Get your story across first.  All that garbage can take two hours

of your own time after school.  Once you send something up or out of the

class, you have to rely on those other teachers or your supervisor. 

Hopefully, they will support you and punish that student enough so the kid

changes their behavior.  However, it's possible you end up getting slighted if

you are giving these people more work, so if you can take care of it yourself,

that's great.  If it nevers crops up as a problem, even better.

Some student behavior never changes.  They always misbehave.  There are many

things that go into their behavior -- home life, perception of music as a

class (It's just for fun, it's not a real class, it's a break for the "real"

teachers, it's a different class where they are free from their regular

classroom rules, you only see them a few times a week so creating habits can

be difficult....)

The ones that misbehave usually have some kind of messed up home life.  That's

sad, but they can't still be a jerk in class.  They probably need more, but

they are difficult to work with.

I don't try to save them all.  I do some, but.... some of them are just little

bastards after awhile.  Not a high teacher ideal, but some of them become too

much work after awhile. 

Getting to know the kids helps.   If they see you as a person and know

something about you, that can help behavior.


Giving them choice, or the appearance of choice helps.  Afterall, they are

forced into going to school and are stuck with their class all day, day after

day after day.  You take a few options that you are ok with, and let them

choose.

Creating ownership and a community atmosphere in the classroom can help.

Along with choice, I have found winning over the "group" helps a lot.  If you

have a group working on singing a song they like, and one kid cracks a joke,

sometimes the group will really turn on that one kid.  The group pressures the

individual into behaving. 

Some of the things that go on in class can be a little... scary maybe but the

endgoal is the good of the kids.  Thinking in terms of "manipulating" students

and "controlling" a group of people still sounds distasteful to me, but the

end result sounds positive.  One of the things I don't like is that I as a

teacher, or other teachers I see --- I'm not convinced they are always doing

"the best" thing for the students.  Good maybe, but definitely not the best

for each individual student.  They work for good for the group as a whole.

Saftey first, learning second -- If a student does something that's a safety

issue, you have to deal with that of course.  Learning is secondary.

Negative talk -- As the teacher, you can be affected by students speaking

negatively, whether it's about you or about a piece you work on.  You can

control that though.  Squash the negative talk and promote the positive.

Creating repoire -- It can take years to really get to know the kids and wipe

out a lot of behavior problems.  I really think a lot of behavior issues can

be created by the situation surrounding the music classroom and not so much

the music teacher themself.


More constructive punishment?  Have them do something written.  These aren't

music majors -- They are still learning basics -- Basics of writing and

communication.  Have them relfect on their behavior -- what they did, what

they should have done, what they will do next time.  If you get them doing

that, they are practicing written skills (makes the admin and other teachers

happy), doing their punishment, constructively thinking, and you have instant

documentation written and signed by them that states what they did wrong (ie

It covers you rear).

Make all your rules and expectations clear at the beginning of the year.  It's

still all behaviorism.  Not much has changed.  You can work for independent

thinking but the behavior plans are still based off behaviorism.

Good lessons and passion help too of course.

As the music teacher you do (or should) have all the rules/punishment

abilities of any other teacher.  (If you don't, then you know your schools

doesn't take art seriously.) 

Give them one chance to misbehave in class -- Then nail them with a

punishment.  Quick response, possibly a little heavy-handed punishment,

followed by getting the group moving along and complimenting the group on the

good things that go on.  Talk to the kid you punish and make it clear you

don't accept the behavior -- The kid is good, the behavior isn't.  Then find

something good they do and compliment them so you don't end up creating an

enemy with the process.

It's necessary to do.  You have to control the class.  They will behave poorly

if you don't.  (Some won't.  Those classes are really nice to work with.) 

There is an art to doing this though.  If you can do it in a way that creates

no waves with anyone, that's great.

I'm not a master at it, but these are some of the things I have learned so

far. 





Some of the other responses are interesting.  You do have to deal with your own problems as a teacher.  Don't send them away.  Take care of them yourself as much as possible.  Win them over and get them motivated if you can.  Yes, some of the students don't care and won't care no matter what you do.  Don't waste too much time trying to "save" them -- but do keep them from dragging down the rest of the group.

Intimidation does work.  By that I mean "barking" at a student or being physically present in a way that puts them off ease so they stop misbehaving.  Not something I like, but... it can work.  Sharply bark their name in a way that grabs their attention and you can quickly get them back on track sometimes.  Sometimes standing near them helps.  Sometimes leaning over them, getting in their face helps.  That is something -- Make sure you've got their eyes.  Eye contact.  There's something primal about it, but I've had more success "willing" them to behave when I have them look straight at me.  Some of them go into their own private little box separate from the world I guess.


There are many things that go into classroom control.  You just have to do the best you can and find what works best for you.  (and if you don't find something that works... then you won't be teaching long, so no pressure, right?)


Good luck with it all.  You cannot just give them a dentention when they misbehave.  It is not a situation where 1 misbehavior = 1 punishment and things work perfectly.  You won't have the time or energy to do that.  You also can't send the kids to the office if they won't behave.  There are a lot of option open to you though.  Some of them seem like "warping" a student to me, but after awhile I go with whatever works.  They can drive you nuts.  Literally.

[quantum]

Very informative reply Bob.


For me harsh punishment would be sight singing 2 part contrapuntal duets with a fellow detentionee.  For bonus, have them record themselves and play the recording the next day for the class to critique their performance.  Of course, part of that would include them learning how to make an overhead on the photocopier / printer so the class can see the score while following the recording. 

For a class attention seeker, give them what they want.  Detention would be to teach the class a music concept, conduct the class playing a piece of music, whatever.  Put them in an active leading role that would have all their peers eyes in their direction, but also require a great amount of responsibility. 

For a double whammy: if they continue to act up, have the person(s) teach the class the 2 part sight singing excercise.  Of course they may have to clarify some difficult sections by singing them to the class, which should be comfortable since they already practiced a lot for the previous recording. 


I'm not mean am I?

[Tash]

LOL i like quantum's suggestion! the whole point of learning aural at lunchtime is because it's a pain for those who don't have perfect pitch, thus if it turns them off enough they won't act up in my class. or if they're chatting i'll send them out and re-teach them the lesson at lunchtime. and then make them teach a continuation of that the next day. make it educational so at least they're learning something- i agree making them sit in a room doing nothing, or cleaning the locker room is not going to have an impact.

make them listen to wagner that'd be good- make them analyse it at the same time so they can't tune out.

this thread is all in good nature, i don't want to punish my students! but in prac teaching i was rather intolerant of kids yelling answers out, talking or running around- i made it a game: if they did it twice i sent them to their desks and they couldn't participate in the lesson. would've been good on a longer term, they got the hang of it though and were generally well behaved and enthusiastic!

anyway, more torture hmmm, maybe for those with perfect pitch- make them write a fugue? or notate by ear the rite of spring. man, just think, the brats of the class might learn bugger all in class but they'd have fantastic aural skills!

[galonia]

In the first high school I went to, if you got a one-hour detention, you weren't allowed to do anything.  You just had to sit in silence in a room with all the other bad kids, and you all just sat there, in complete silence, not doing anything, you can't read, can't do your homework, can't talk, can't listen to music.  Nothing.  Just stare at the blackboard for a complete hour.

In my second high school, if you were put on detention, you had to do something useful during that time.  So if it's just a minor issue, and it was just a recess or lunchtime detention, usually it's picking up rubbish.  If it was for something very bad, it might be spending three days digging the drainage ditch for the new school building that was being built, thus saving the school money.  But in general, at this school, detentions were thought to be the worst and most ineffective way of ensuring good behaviour; there are much better ways.

[pianistimo]

yes.  u can drug them.  (just kidding). 

seriously, i agree with galonia and bob and all those who either went to school and got a detention or are a teacher.  you have to put yourself in the student's shoes and actually feel their pain.   they don't want to be bad kids.  there's something making them act out and feel that they have to be the center of attention.  or maybe, it's just a one time mistake (for girls usually) that they didn't hear you properly, or were having a bad day.

i liked quantum's idea of giving them a huge responsibility right there on the spot.  like whatever u are in the middle of - you ask them if they can take over for a minute or two while u go to the coffee machine.  u tell them exactly what u need done over int he corner for a minute and then leave.  this suddenly surprises them and also gives them a challenge.  surprisingly, sometimes trouble makers can be bored kids with very high intellect.

also, bob's suggestion of group discipline is very effective.  if a group is responsible for certain things happening - then the distractor won't be looked upon favorably.  it takes most of the burden and pressure off of you. 

in community college - ur dealing with a lot older students - so u don't have the typical misbehavior - but i was surprised at how many students sometimes speak out of turn or simply aren't listening closely.  one teacher in particular seemed to always be ahead of the game.  he moved at a fast pace - and u had to listen to keep up with him.  maybe moving a class at a fairly good pace is good for those students with 'boredom' problems.

[Tash]

i remember the first term of yr7 (first year of high school!) me and 2 friends got a saturday detention and had to scrub the walls and desks of every room in the school- graffiting (sp?) on a wall and then lying to the deputy principal about it. woops!

[thalbergmad]

In my day, you got 500 lines and as soon as you handed it in, the teacher would tear it up.

Schools are too soft nowadays. My Grandfather used to get whipped.

Bring back the cane.

Never did me any harm.

Thal

[Tash]

yes our music ed lecturer told us to beat the kids ruthlessly if they talked. he also said he had a mobile phone smasher- someone's phone did ring in class and he brought out...man i can't even remember what it was now, a saxaphone or something, either way it was funny

[mikey6]

One of my old teachers wacked my friend on the hand with my metal ruler coz he was biting his nails! was rather amusing (for everyone else)

[Waldszenen]

Put some Wagner on in the Background.

G-God... 

LOL

I'm not sure about a music detention, but one particularly nasty form of punishment is this; on the blackboard/whiteboard, draw a circle, about the size of a coin. Make the student(s) stare at it continuously; every time their eyes lose contact increase the time by 10 minutes.

My friends and I had to do this once... I swear it's torture (we were there for 70 minutes; our teacher surprised us by giving us what seemed to be a tiny 10 minute detention).

[mike_lang]

Put some Wagner on in the Background.

Or maybe the Boulez sonata...

Excuse my ignorance.

Best,
ML

[ahinton]

In my day,

How long ago was that, then?

Schools are too soft nowadays. My Grandfather used to get whipped.

Bring back the cane.

Never did me any harm.

I'm a tad confused; did your grandfather get whipped with a cane, then?

I'm afraid I don't agree with you in principle here; never did, in fact. They occasionally used a strap in my early school days in Scotland. It only ever got used on me once. When it was, I grabbed hold of it and strapped the teacher back. I didn't do this out of bad temper, malice or even bravado but because I could see no possible outcome of this kind of act other thank risking the encouragement of violent behaviour. I was not punished for this retaliatory gesture beyond having to explain my reasons for it in front of the class. It didn't happen again.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Or maybe the Boulez sonata...

Excuse my ignorance.

No, I won't excuse it - you explain it, by telling us WHICH of Boulez's three sonatas you mean...

Best,

Alistair

[mike_lang]

No, I won't excuse it - you explain it, by telling us WHICH of Boulez's three sonatas you mean...

Best,

Alistair

Number two.  I'm starting to really enjoy some 20th century music - Carter, Vine, Berg, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Sorabji, etc., but somehow that sonata is still a little extreme for me.  Perhaps because my ear isn't yet acclimated to serialism.

Best,
ML